We’ve been messing about with education for so long it’s no wonder we are where we are

Well…. only the education available to the plebs.

The paid-for education available to those that can afford it has remained resolutely un-messed-about-with for centuries, including its tax breaks/taxpayer subsidies

Good old social mobility eh?

We’ve been messing about with education for so long it’s no wonder we are where we are

If you mean the Tories have been coming up with more and more ways of making it less available to the poor / less able; then yep – they’ve tried lots of things.

All of which have been slammed as bad value for money and socially divisive.

Biggest driver of social mobility is education, not just academic achievement either.

Tsar does have a point that Brexit will dominate Parliament and Govt time for the next 2-3 years.

@Binners

The paid-for education available to those that can afford it has remained resolutely un-messed-about-with for centuries, including its tax breaks/taxpayer subsidies

Paid for education is massive help to the state reducing pressure on state school places and providing employment and lots of tax revenue

Grenfell, refurb spending £90k per apartment on “the poor”

teamhurtmore – Member
We’ve been messing about with education for so long it’s no wonder we are where we are

I seem to remember you being an advocate of tuition fees and arguing against the societal value of state funded University education.

Rusty I imagine TMH is speaking about secondary education. I would agree we’ve been messing about with that too much for too long

Biggest driver of social mobility is education, not just academic achievement either.

Jambalaya is dead right here. There has for many years now been far to much emphasis on academic ability and pathetic support for vocational education. Not everyone needs a degree.

Paid for education is massive help to the state reducing pressure on state school places and providing employment and lots of tax revenue

😆
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Shall we legislate that a proportion of privately educated students undertake vocational qualifications and are excluded from degree courses?

Or is it just poorer students, regardless of ability, that should be forced down that route?

paid for education is a massive help to the state

No FF, 1965 and Tony Crosland’s educational vandalism from which we have never recovered.

Shall we legislate

No politicians have done enough harm to education – keep them out of it.

And yet you advocated the introduction of fees.

No I didn’t. I merely commented on the previous system. I certainly would not advocate the current system. It’s crazy.

teamhurtmore – Member
Having poor people funding middle class kids to go to university hardly helped social mobility in the past

And a quick search finds

teamhurtmore – Member
True – and some (@50% of the pop) will be relieved that they are not subsidising middle class childrens’ education.

You were and still are against universally subsidised University education.
Which contradicts your statement that you wish to see less interference from politicians.

And just for clarification THM, I have no agenda against you, or Jambalaya for that matter.
I just wish you’d be a bit more willing to actually state what you genuinely believe.
It would go a long way toward stopping what you perceive as negativity toward the pair of you.

I’ve extended the hand of friendship to you both in the past in an effort to negate any mutual misunderstanding and to find some common ground.

We know that this form of communication is open to misinterpretation, a little effort from both sides and we can
hopefully put an end to this continuing unpleasantness.

The point with higher education is first, we essentially have a graduate tax so only those who earn well need to repay. Second some of the money is used to fund the living expenses of the poorest. The combination of the two means that there has actually been greater uptake among the poorest. It is rare in policy arguments that you have a valid counterfactual. However in the case of Scotland, we have a similar society which has the opposite policy which means less money for bursaries and no fees for all, yet uptake among the poorest seems lower.

There is no contradiction at all.

I have stated very clearly what I believe about poor people funding middle class kids tertiary education. I think that is absurd and unfair. Edit for cross post with Mefty, but I recognise the results he also notes and the irony with free ediucation in Scotland.

I have also stated that I would prefer to see less government interference in education. They do a very bad job.

You chose to create some contradiction that doesn’t exist. I am not sure why.

FWIW, I am not conscious of you being unpleasant either. I would suggest efforts to be directed instead on what is said not what is not said.

Nursing degree applications in England down by 23% since the introduction of fees.
Link.

I have stated very clearly what I believe about poor people funding middle class kids tertiary education. I think that is absurd and unfair.

So are you happy that the government has intervened to stop what you perceive as unfairness?

FWIW, I am not conscious of you being unpleasant either. I would suggest efforts to be directed instead on what is said not what is not said.

What is not said is often as important as what is.
You continually complain of bias and bullying when challenged to state what you actually believe or to justify your comments.
Your most recent contributions to YOUR Corbyn thread being just one example.

The real need is for greater parity of wages. Since the 70s wages have risen more for the richest 10% than for the rest. If everyone had an accepable wage there wouldn’t be the pressure from the rich to protect their offspring from downward mobility. If the average van driver or shop worker could afford a decent home and lifestyle then mobilty, (that is, the movement of all people innto the jobs most appropriate to them and their abilities) could come back.

The thread has now focussed on education which, as others ^^^ have posted, is the single most effective way of moving towards social equality.
Essential to achieving social mobility? Definitely yes.
The only tool necessary to achieve social mobility? Definitely not

Not true Rusty. I simply chose who to respond to and who to engage with. But feel free to make stuff up and I can add you to the list, if you would prefer. Easier that what. Your choice.

I simply chose who to respond to and who to engage with.

It would appear that you refuse to engage with anyone who challenges you to provide evidence or justify your position.
You’ve just done it again when challenged about your statement regarding government interference in educational policy.

Once again, simple question:
Are you happy that the government has intervened to stop what you perceive as unfairness?

But feel free to make stuff up and I can add you to the list, if you would prefer.

Please provide evidence of anything I’ve made up.
Link to your latest contribution to YOUR Corbyn thread.

A list?
Sorry, but that’s a bit pathetic.

Easier that what. Your choice.

I have no idea what you mean by this.

Clearly. Hence your apparent need to make things up instead.

What have I made up?
Accusing people of lying is unpleasant.
Please justify your statement.

And one final time:
Are you happy that the government has intervened to stop what you perceive as unfairness?

The latest report is here (gov.uk site).

I’ve read through it a few times this weekend after hearing of the resignations. It makes for pretty stark reading. There is little of which to be proud.

There are huge challenges facing a government of any hue over the next few years. Of course, little will be done as a national act of self-harm borne out of some of the frustrations illustrated (in said report) will consume too much parliamentary time.

I grew up working class. Managed to go to university and got a fairly well paid job working for the local authority. I considered myself to have become middle class. I recently started working in my first office job in a local university. It has become very clear to me that I will never be middle class.
Social mobility is bollocks. It’s just a way to keep us buying shit in an effort to get up the ladder/get ahead/be happy. This country’s class system is as entrenched as it ever was and they don’t want us in their club.
The very fact that we talk about social mobility proves that we are happy to leave a significant section of society behind.
**** social mobility, when are we going to start talking about social equality?

fin25,

Genuine question bud.

Why has the current job made you feel this way? That you will never be middle class?

There is a confidence and sense of security that comes with family money.
Its very difficult to replicate it if you havent got that advantage. Either in terms of the practical benefits of being able to take risks and move from opportuniy to opportunity or the attitude in your personal relationships.

+1. I’d love to go back to education but the costs are completely off putting. The way I see it is that a skilled work force bringing in more tax revenues for the government will be of greater benefit for the country in the long run than having a lot of unfulfilled potential on low wages.

Trouble is as far as I can tell there is a drive to de-skill/division of labour (globally) and force as many as humanly possible via legislation/regulation into unregulated corporate hands. Minimum/whatever they can get away with employment/slave labour, you should be bloody grateful or starve. As always those set to benefit, even the slightly better off (council estate snobs/house n$$$$$$/concentration camp guards), who like cheap desperados to take advantage of/profit from, keep the status quo going, while lying through their back teeth. Bow down to Lord Dave, Steve, Bazza and Gary who own BTL portfolios and want to lord it up like landed gentry of the past, will throw anyone in the way under the bus and support any lying **** that keeps them in clover.

Nursing degree applications in England down by 23% since the introduction of fees.

I am not saying the policy is perfect, just that when looked at as a whole it has been more successful. The biggest failure is that it hasn’t generated the level of price competition and innovation in course design that they were hoping for. Everyone just put their fees up to the full amount because there was insufficient incentive to do anything different. Careers like nursing (as would many others) would seem ripe for innovation. Afterall my wife became an RCN nurse where she worked as a trainee nurse and studied at the same time, why do you need to spend three years at university to become a nurse, has it changed so much? Her oldest friend became one (not RCN) without highers (they are both Scottish), there must be new solutions.

The way I see it is that a skilled work force bringing in more tax revenues for the government will be of greater benefit for the country in the long run than having a lot of unfulfilled potential on low wages.

This is not about the country, or a skilled workforce, its beyond what you see as the sensible economics in the quote above. Its about class. Always has been.

Who rules. That slogan “taking back control” in the referendum was hidden in plain sight.

I was given a presentation last week on the proposed apprenticeships relating to architecture where the levies on firms with a staff wage bill of £3m a year would become available to all. These will be degree and postgrad level qualifications leading to professional registration.
It will be interesting to see how these pan out, I’m sure that other professions/ industries are preparing similar training routes – which will significantly reduce the costs to individuals.

anagallis_arvensis – Member

Tory views encapsulated.

I’m looking from a wider view.
When people talk about social mobility they are generally talking about moving up the ladder, which will inevitably result in others moving down.
I’d rather look at a bigger picture and see how we can improve society for the whole. Selfishness means that this will not currently happen.

ETA: that is to say that I find the whole concept of social mobility a bit silly.

Public school pupils receive more in tax subsidies than the per capita spend on state school pupils so the idea that public schools help the government in some way is ludicrous. In fact many of these subsidies accrue to rich foreign students, the British poor paying for the global rich (again).

Let’s clos them all down then after all many only provide educational excellence that attractes people from around the world. Who needs that?

The social mobility report is depressing for (1) content and (2) lack of genuine solutions. It struggles to make any firm conclusions but is full of cliche. After five reports, we are left with a lack of “strategy” and solution. What has been the point. A list of problems with few if any solutions.

Mefty, indeed the lack of innovation and competition in tertiary education is sad. Where are the shorter, focused courses, where are links to industry and business, where is the competition to ensure better standards and VFM? Yes there are private sector innovator eg, BPP who are expanding into this areas but is far too little.

“Public school pupils receive more in tax subsidies than the per capita”

Not sure this stacks up. As I understand it private schools don’t have to charge VAT at 20%. The average cost of privately school for non boarding was reported by the BBC in 2015 to be £13186, so VAT of £2837 per pupil was on average not received by the treasury. That compares to £4306 per capita funding the same year.

This will of course be the first “real world” problem for Corbyn if he gains power. Already committed to dismantling private education the State will need to either magic up significant new funding for running costs for state education and a massive increase in capital allocations or more likely cut funding for all pupils to accommodate the tens of thousands of pupils who will otherwise have nowhere to go in the state system.

I just wish you’d be a bit more willing to actually state what you genuinely believe.
It would go a long way toward stopping what you perceive as negativity toward the pair of you.

Trolls gonna troll!!

Anyway social mobility wont be changed by messing about with Uni courses, many things are set in stone far far before people think about University applications.

many only provide educational excellence

Do they, what evidence of this have you seen? Remember reputation and excellence in education are not the same.

When people talk about social mobility they are generally talking about moving up the ladder, which will inevitably result in others moving down.

No it means everyone can get to a ladder and it does improve society as a whole

Just5, yep sorry, I failed to mention boarding schools, no business taxes, taxpayer funding boarding school places for the children of the military and diplomatic services. Fees at boarding schools in real terms the (subsidized) costs are well in excess of £30k pa. I’m not sure how many overseas students would be in private day schools.
Who’s talking about closing these places down? Open them up I say, to all. Maybe the taxpayers might then get to enjoy the boating lake they funded at Eton college. Give these fantastic teachers a chance to show their true mettle with comprehensive kids, I’m sure they’d leap at the opportunity.

Military kids get up to £6k per term, subject to quite stringent qualifying criteria. The parents have to make up the rest. Numbers are falling and use of the few state boarding schools is encouraged. Boarding is the essential bit, not private.