• This topic has 2,677 replies, 250 voices, and was last updated 1 year ago by bigrich.
Viewing 40 posts - 2,521 through 2,560 (of 2,678 total)
  • So…who’s going to be our next PM?
  • dannybgoode
    Full Member

    I am just hoping, merely for the only giggles this whole shitshow will give me, that Sunak gets announced as the winner. That would be hilarious – if only briefly.

    matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    Mods – is now the time to reopen the “old” thread?

    Liz Truss!

    rone
    Full Member

    So there’s whiff of Truss ‘furlough’ levels of spending circulating on James O’Brien and now Centrists jumping through hoops to misunderstand national debt and government spending, and how we can’t spend that much.

    You can’t make it up. (well you can because Centrists don’t like left-wing economic solutions when they’re on the table.)

    If she does go for this (which I’m not really sure – furlough levels of spending sounds extreme) – Starmer will be left with only fiscal credibilty to talk about. And then he’s done.

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    tjagain
    Full Member

    Rone. Please stop calling them centrist as they are not. They are right wing. At least put it in inverted commas

    dazh
    Full Member

    If she does go for this

    My money is on something like the Scottish Power plan, without the loan bit. Whatever it is it’ll be more than labour are proposing to do. Once again Starmer misses an open goal.

    rone
    Full Member

    Rone. Please stop calling them centrist as they are not. They are right wing. At least put it in inverted comma

    I’ve written about this before.

    Centrists are fiscally right-wing/pro markets but don’t identify as such so they are called Centrists to help this distinction. And the other key distinction is they believe money is generated by the wealthy to pay for the state – but the wealthy should pay their tax for that reason.

    That’s a key difference.

    I completely agree with your sentiment but it doesn’t help describe a general position to just call them right-wing.

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    The majority of this country only think about the now. If she does that and calls an election we’ll have four more years of Conservatives in power. They’ve created a perfect storm by getting everyone to within a few days panic and riots, so that she fixes it this winter and becomes the heroine of the nation for six months at least.

    In facts it’s so clever I’d be surprised if it were true.

    rone
    Full Member

    In facts it’s so clever I’d be surprised if it were true.

    I don’t want to quote my own words but I always thought electorally people underestimated Truss because of lots of ridiculous sound-bites.

    That said she can still be a right-wing mess at the same time when she executes ideas.

    hey’ve created a perfect storm by getting everyone to within a few days panic

    It’s a Tory thing – to do something at the very last minute.

    rone
    Full Member

    Having said all this can you imagine if Sunak won! LMFAO.

    rone
    Full Member

    Actually furlough was 70bn so it could be.

    (I was thinking about the 450bn – my mistake.)

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    Please stop calling them centrist as they are not. They are right wing.

    Calling Blairites “centrists” distinguishes them from old school right-wingers of say the Dennis Healey mould.

    For all their differences until New Labour came along left and right within the Labour had broadly the same goals, just different paths and strategies to achieve them.

    That changed with the arrival of New Labour, a development which Thatcher claimed was her greatest achievement. New Labour’s “Third Way” was a combination of right-wing thatcherite economics but which unlike the Tories would allegedly benefit ordinary working people.

    Describing them as centrists is both a fair description and what they like to call themselves so I see no reason for not doing so. I can only assume that you are uncomfortable with the term TJ because as a slightly pink vaguely leftie individual you see the “centre ground” as something to aspire to 😉

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    Having said all this can you imagine if Sunak won

    Over the last few days it’s been rumoured that it’s closer than we think, albeit Sunak pretty much admitted defeat yesterday by agree that “…yes, he would support the new government”.

    imnotverygood
    Full Member

    TJ’s problem is that he defines political identity by the rules of 50 years ago. Thereby ignoring the fact that politics is all relative & that if the political population as a whole has moved to the right, then by definition what is now the centre has moved in the same direction.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    the political population as a whole has moved to the right

    Depends on whether you mean Scotland, England, or the UK (or even Europe).

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    The debate on this thread is clearly in relation to Westminster.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Someone has said TJ’s “problem” is that he views political identity in an out of date way… I think that mostly applies to views in England, which isn’t where he lives. Not much sign of Scotland, or the MPs they return to Westminster, following England down the same increasingly right wing path. How many Scottish MPs can Truss rely on for support…?

    MSP
    Full Member

    political population as a whole has moved to the right

    I don’t think that is true, they are often however nudged into more rightwing voting by lies, misinformation, fearmongering and character assassination. When you actually poll the individual policies of what is normally considered left and right, leftwing policies are hugely popular, even with lifelong tory voters.

    Also a considerable percentage of the population are ignored and disenfranchised by the current political landscape, they have not swung to the right, they are just cast aside.

    kerley
    Free Member

    The majority of this country only think about the now. If she does that and calls an election we’ll have four more years of Conservatives in power. They’ve created a perfect storm by getting everyone to within a few days panic and riots, so that she fixes it this winter and becomes the heroine of the nation for six months at least.

    Yep, that is what I think will happen. Do something to save the nation, get a quick election in on the back of that and then have a ‘mandate’ to do whatever shit you can for the next 4 years, including removing any help given this winter on energy crisis for next years winter.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    No

    The point is labour occupy roughly the centre ground so the right wing of labour are right wingers not centrist

    Anyone who prefers to have a tory government than a left of centre labour one is a rightwinger

    Anyone who prefers to do deals with the tories than the SNP is a right winger

    The problem is these right wingers in labour have simply forgotten who the enemy is.

    Ian Murray is a right winger. Anas Sarwar is a right winger.etc etc. All those who breifed against Corbyn are right wingets

    By calling them centrist you are allowing them to get away with it.

    Yes the scots context is important to me and more obvious but just because the labour party has become centrist does not actually change definitions.

    Many of these so called centerists are to the right of folk like Healy

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    including removing any help given this winter on energy crisis for next years winter.

    You cannot have millions of households, businesses, hospitals, schools, scout huts, etc, unable to pay their energy bills even if you have won a general election and have supposedly about four years before the next.

    rone
    Full Member

    Wow. Interesting.

    rone
    Full Member

    By calling them centrist you are allowing them to get away with it.

    I think it stops them being called left-wing economically.

    And I think Centrist perhaps excludes them being right-wing from a cultural and social perspective. It’s the oppoiste of the red wall voters.

    kerley
    Free Member

    You cannot have millions of households, businesses, hospitals, schools, scout huts, etc, unable to pay their energy bills even if you have won a general election and have supposedly about four years before the next.

    Nope, but can certainly help a lot less after winning an election combined with having more time to come up with approaches that satisfy tory voters and donors.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Same price controls the EU are talking about? Even proposing it had helped keep gas prices subdued, a bit… ‘till the latest Nord Stream 1 sent them skywards again. The only problem is that capping wholesale prices could result in reduced production/supply and energy blackouts, unless the government essentially takes control of production.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    Anyone who prefers to have a tory government than a left of centre labour one is a rightwinger

    Anyone who uses the term ‘left of centre” is imo embarrassed to call themselves left wing and therefore probably right wing.

    There is no reason to say left of centre, if the position is on the left it isn’t in the centre.

    If we are going to get fussy about terminology.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    These folk are right wing from a cultural and social perspective

    Anti immigrant etc etc

    dazh
    Full Member

    Wow. Interesting.

    I’ll simply repeat what I’ve said in the past. Liz Truss is no rightwing ideologue.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Pk. Sorry for the hijack.

    I made my point. Im just disappointed that so called lefties on here dont recognise the fact that the modern labour party has a strong right wing tendency and that there is an ongoing attempt to turn it into a right of centre party as it became under blair

    Do you really think labour mps cheering tory wins at a ge is acceptable

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Ernie

    My personal political position is way to the left of labour

    kelvin
    Full Member

    There is no reason to say left of centre

    There is if you fail the purity test. I’m left wing. That I don’t think that means that capitalism must be destroyed results in plenty of people saying I’m not left wing. People end up using the “left of centre” tag to try and push for a consensus on the left, without getting into the “you’re not left wing enough” debate. Control of our political system has been handed to the right wingers on a plate… if that’s to be countered, a coalition of those left of centre (no matter how far or not they are to the left) is badly needed.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    so called lefties on here dont recognise the fact that the modern labour party has a strong right wing tendency

    Are you sure about that?

    dazh
    Full Member

    so called lefties on here dont recognise the fact that the modern labour party has a strong right wing tendency

    I thought it was all we ever talked about? 😀

    Unless of course you’re talking about the likes of binners, who we all know is an embarrassed Liberal Democrat.

    reluctantjumper
    Full Member

    If Truss does announce a price cap per unit of energy what’s to stop the companies just refusing to sell? Can you imagine the fallout if her first action turns the country off?!

    Cougar
    Full Member

    Having said all this can you imagine if Sunak won! LMFAO.

    Sunak was never going to win. As if the porkletariat and the Tunbridge Wells pensioners that make up the Tory Party membership were ever in danger of voting for someone who looks a bit foreign.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    If Truss does announce a price cap per unit of energy what’s to stop the companies just refusing to sell?

    Contractual obligation? Hasn’t setting a price cap always been ultimately the right of the government?

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    If Truss does announce a price cap per unit of energy what’s to stop the companies just refusing to sell? Can you imagine the fallout if her first action turns the country off?!

    Like the Ofgem price cap presumably it would still be set at a profitable level. So it would still pay centrica et.al. to produce gas, just not at the inflated market rate. The only reason to shut off gas would be if you had wells that were excessively expensive to run, or had very low reserves so there was an economic case to save them for the higher price returning (which it might not, logically you’d have to keep the cap untill prices fell below it anyway).

    ctk
    Free Member

    If you added the votes up of Labour/ Lib Dems/ Greens/ SNP/ Plaid you’d beat the Tories at every election. We are not a RW country we have a political system weighted in favour of the right in every way possible.

    You saw how scared the Tories were of UKIP splitting their vote but the left parties DGAF.

    rone
    Full Member

    Sunak was never going to win. As if the porkletariat and the Tunbridge Wells pensioners that make up the Tory Party membership were ever in danger of voting for someone who looks a bit foreign.

    For sure – it’s always looked like that to me. Everything you said plus underestimation of Truss from the HIGNFY types.

    But politics can throw up surprises can’t it!

    rone
    Full Member

    These folk are right wing from a cultural and social perspective

    Anti immigrant etc etc

    Not the Centrists I’m talking about.

    rone
    Full Member

    Unless of course you’re talking about the likes of binners, who we all know is an embarrassed Liberal Democrat

    Ooof – Lol. There is no other type of Lib-Dem! 😉

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