Viewing 40 posts - 1,801 through 1,840 (of 2,678 total)
  • So…who’s going to be our next PM?
  • stumpyjon
    Full Member

    inkster not sure why my personal circumstances are anything to do with you. Its the people in the cash economy not paying tax that are the issue, there’s plenty of people on minimum wage on PAYE whilst there are many very comfortably off people who got there by not putting their earnings through the books.

    Your post is pretty unpleasant and uncalled for to be honest, I’ve no personal interest in how others spend their money and didnt suggest i did, but the tax man should and does. Are you condoning not paying tax, sounds like you are. Its ok for some people to evade tax is it?

    Well if it’s ok for some people not to pay tax then why should anyone bother.

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    Schools are going to be hot like a sledge hammer by this, after staff energy costs are the biggest expense and that’s about to get much bigger as the cap doesn’t cover schools. I expect hospitals will be the same too.

    dazh
    Full Member

    Its the people in the cash economy not paying tax that are the issue

    No it’s the likes of shell and Amazon paying no tax which is the problem, not Fred the plumber and his mates doing a cheap cash in hand job. The tax lost from the cash economy is a drop in the ocean compared to the industrial scale evasion of corporates and multi-millionaires and billionaires. In the current climate where I’m going to be ripped off to the tune of around 500 quid a month, if any tradesman offer me an off the books discount I’ll be gladly accepting.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    UK wealth returned to pre 2008 levels in. 2013, any ‘growth’ since then has gone directly into the pockets of the rich whilst everyone else is significantly poorer.

    Most of us are significantly poorer. Even those who haven’t noticed yet. How can we get people to see who has put us in this position, and how the voting public have been empowering them to further stamp down on real wages and over stress our services? We (not you or I, but the people of this country) voted not just to keep returning Conservative led governments, but to give them back “control”. When will people wake up and change their votes to improve things?

    dazh
    Full Member

    When will people wake up and change their votes to improve things?

    When our so-called official opposition offer them an alternative. Given the choice of tory policies implemented by the tories, or tory policies implemented by labour, it stands to reason that many will opt to vote for the party which actually believes in what they are doing.

    thisisnotaspoon
    Full Member

    No it’s the likes of shell

    Devils advocate, Shell paid no tax because they made no money, remember the oil price in some parts of the world dropping below zero? They were literally paying refiners/storage to take it off their hands as it was cheaper than a complete shutdown of production operations.

    There’s a further issue of revenue being offshored by multinationals, but you shouldn’t conflate the two.

    stumpyjon
    Full Member

    In that case dazh you’re not really in a position to criticise all greedy fat cats which you are so find of doing. Or in your world is it ok for people like you to break the rules but not for others. That’s exactly the mindset the disaster capitalists have, it’s that sort of mentality that has given us years of Tory rule and an utterly selfish society which keeps voting for the likes of Boris Johnson.

    dazh
    Full Member

    In that case dazh you’re not really in a position to criticise all greedy fat cats which you are so find of doing.

    FFS take your head out of your backside. Working people (of which I am one) are being bled dry by the people at the top of our economy. Look in pretty much any area and you’ll see people being ripped off either through rising prices, falling incomes or both. And all facilitated by a political class which has abandoned any pretence of representing the interests of the country at large. We are being robbed blind by these c**** so spare me the moralising about saving a few quid when the opportunity arises.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    Or in your world is it ok for people like you to break the rules but not for others.

    Either everyone pays the taxes they should, or nobody does. To demand one rule for others but not set an example yourself is hypocritical.

    dazh
    Full Member

    To demand one rule for others but not set an example yourself is hypocritical.

    Nonsense. So working people have to toe the line while the rich get away with proverbial murder? When all the billionaires and corporations pay what everyone else has to pay by all means go after the little guy. Until then they can f*** right off.

    stumpyjon
    Full Member

    We’re all being bled dry by Covid, Putin, climate change and the disgrace for a government we currently have, put in power by the very people you’re talking about. Selfish thoughtless, blinkered working people who think it’s ok for them to avoid tax but expect all the help in the world when they need it. Remember the squeals from the self employed who hadn’t been putting everything through their books when Covid hit. There’s greedy people throughout society, it’s not just the uber rich.

    Your left wing utopia is an unworkable pipe dream which is never happening (and would trash society if it did). Maybe the grown ups realise this, maybe people like Starmer realise that you can’t get the current voters in this country to lurch to the extreme left from an ever more right wing trajectory, it’s got to be done jncrementally. The same selfish people behaving exactly the way you say you would. Justifying your own selfish actions because others don’t play by the rules doesn’t cut it.

    inkster
    Free Member

    Sorry stumpy, was half joking, thus the ‘that’s you that is’ reference.

    Have you ever had to pay for things like pre pay electricity? Cash only at the till I’m afraid. I understand that you were pointing the finger at a few people who are doing quote well and avoiding taxes but it pales in comparison to corporate tax avoidance and evasion.

    Contrary to moving away from a cash economy I suggest it is one area that will see significant growth in the next couple of years, we will see a return to the situation as it was in the 80’s.

    If you were to clamp down on the cash economy it would be the poorest that will suffer most. I reckon a lot of small businesses will be doing more ‘cash’ business in the near future, not because they are grèady but because it might be the only way they can survivè and it might be the only way people can afford their services.

    As others have pointed out, loads of small businesses will be out of business in weeks and when they try to start up again when things get better they will find that their individual sectors will have been gobbled up by multi national, non tax paying (but Tory party contributing) corporations.

    And dazh may have some funny opinions from time to time but to draw a moral equivalence between him and Jeff Bezos is quite frankly absurd.

    dazh
    Full Member

    Selfish thoughtless, blinkered working people

    And you accuse me of class war? I think In this comment and your patronising use of the word ‘grownups’ you’ve exposed exactly what you think of working people. It’s snobbery plain and simple.

    And for the record, working people don’t have any choice but to pay tax as it’s taken at source. I paid over 15k in income tax and NI last year. I didn’t have a choice, and didn’t complain. But don’t expect me to feel guilty about saving a few quid on a building job, especially if it also benefits the tradesman who is also being screwed with higher costs through no fault of their own.

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    realise that you can’t get the current voters in this country to lurch to the extreme left from an ever more right wing trajectory

    It is people like you who describe basic social democracy as “extreme left” that did so much to encourage the apparently “selfish thoughtless, blinkered working people” to vote Tory.

    And then castigate them for doing precisely that.

    stumpyjon
    Full Member

    Fair enough inkster, it didn’t come across that way, thanks for clarifying, to be fair it did seem a little out of kilter for your usual posts. Wasn’t really comparing dazh to Jeff Bezos, more of a back bench Tory MP who choses which rules apply to them and which don’t whilst expecting everyone else to tow the line.

    dazh, yes you, the class warrior, it’s all black and white in your world. As usual you’ve selectively quoted to back up your myopic world view, I stand by my whole comment

    Selfish thoughtless, blinkered working people who think it’s ok for them to avoid tax but expect all the help in the world when they need it

    is the whole quote, i.e. the ones that think its ok to take without giving back, the ones happy to avoid tax, which is not all, or even most working people, but there are enough of them to keep the current corrupt bunch of grifters in power.

    If the grownups comment was patronising then good you understood, utopia isn’t happening, actions have consequences, see Corbyn’s failure to oppose Brexit, he was as much an enabler of this disaster as Cameron.

    If you want to stop the corporate rampage demanding a Corbyn world is never going to get you there. The solution is not all about hammering the corporate world though.

    ernielynch, no it’s people like you who describe people with moderate views as right wing and try to paint anyone who doesn’t agree with your extreme (and they are extreme by UK standards) views an enemy.

    I suppose Rone will be along next to give their magic money tree a wobble.

    dazh
    Full Member

    And if you want any further evidence of how working people are being ripped off, look no further. You don’t have to be a ‘grown up’ to recognise robbery when you see it.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/18/po-ferries-owner-reports-record-breaking-profits-after-mass-sacking?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    ernielynch, no it’s people like you who describe people with moderate views as right wing and try to paint anyone who doesn’t agree with your extreme (and they are extreme by UK standards) views an enemy.

    So you have confirmed it is indeed basic social democracy that you are described as “extreme left”.

    A “Corbyn world”, as you describe it, was somewhere to the right of Tory PMs Harold Macmillan and Edward Health, and in some cases probably to the right of existing Christian Democratic/Conservative parties in Europe – see French conservatives currently nationalising their energy supplies.

    You dismissing moderate social democratic policies as “extreme left” ironically outs you as an extremist.

    dazh
    Full Member

    utopia isn’t happening

    Who wants utopia? All I want is the rich and multinationals to pay tax like everyone else has to. Is that utopian in your grown up world? In my world that’s the bare minimum and I reckon the vast majority would agree with me. If you seriously think that’s ‘extreme left’ then you’re nothing more than a useful idiot to the people ripping you off. Thing is despite your protestations to the opposite I don’t think you are, I reckon you’re more sympathetic to the people doing the exploiting than those at the receiving end, but you don’t want to admit it.

    stumpyjon
    Full Member

    and your point is? Still doesn’t excuse you from encouraging tax evasion which is illegal.

    To stop the behaviour of the likes of P & O we need to get the current lot out of power and get someone in who will start to tackle this sort of legal abuse so it becomes illegal. That’s not going to happen with some lurch to the extreme left, Corbyn had his chance, he blew it, he utterly failed to take enough people with him, his supporters did the usual left wing thing of blaming everyone else, it’s the PLP, it’s the media etc. etc. Well to get into power you need to connect with the majority of voters and your own party, Corbyn didn’t. You have to learn to manipulate and counter the vested interests in the media. Corbyn utterly failed at this, even Liz Truss has the brains to realise she has to appeal to the voters (unfortunately in this case those voters are a very select bunch of insulated retirees).

    If he actually had compromised a bit we might all be in a better position today and not have the government we do.

    dazh
    Full Member

    Stumpy why the obsession with Corbyn? I didn’t even mention him. Do you think corporations and billionaires paying the same tax as small businesses and working people is too extreme for the Labour Party?

    stumpyjon
    Full Member

    The obsession with Corbyn, yeah I’m pissed with him, he enabled the current mess, spouting the same message you are (although to be fair to Corbyn I doubt he’d be condoning tax evasion like you are) see the link.

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    Well to get into power you need to connect with the majority of voters and your own party, Corbyn didn’t.

    Well I tend to agree with that point, certainly it was also a problem for Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband, and I suspect that it is a major problem for Keir Starmer too – voters don’t appear to feel particularly warm towards him nor does he appear to connect with them, plus the Labour Party is losing hundreds of members every day, so unlike Corbyn he doesn’t appear to be connecting with his own party.

    But if this is still about who is going to be our next PM I feel fairly confident that Liz Truss will probably be able to connect with voters and her own party better than Keir Starmer currently does. Time will tell I guess.

    stumpyjon
    Full Member

    I feel fairly confident that Liz Truss will probably be able to connect with voters

    And unfortunately I fully agree with you on that. Although I initially thought Rishi might have been PM material he’s clearly shown his right wing extremities and preparedness to dog whistle so maybe Liz is a better option out of two horrendous options, at she has the aptitude to really screw up big time, unfortunately she’ll make Boris look competent.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    In answer to the original question: Liz Truss.

    Says she will reverse the recent rise in National Insurance, which came into effect in April, and hold an emergency budget
    Pledges to scrap a planned rise in corporation tax – set to increase from 19% to 25% in 2023
    Would suspend what is known as the “green levy” – part of your energy bill that pays for social and green projects
    Says she will pay for the cuts by spreading the UK’s “Covid debt” over a longer period
    Promises to change taxes to make it easier for people to stay at home to care for children or elderly relatives
    Wants to create new “low-tax and low-regulation zones” across the country to create hubs for innovation and enterprise
    Says she won’t cut public spending unless there is a way to do so that won’t lead to future problems
    Would bring target of spending 2.5% of GDP on defence forward to 2026 and introduce a new target of 3% by 2030

    Thing is if Keir Starmer’s name was at the top of that list would you spot the error?

    inkster
    Free Member

    Ever heard the phrase “No taxation without representation “?

    Flip it on its head; No representation without taxation.

    The fact that there is a threshold before you pay tax (that rises consistently) is a reflection of the fact that wages are too low and have been for decades.

    It is a model that suggests that the low paid are second class citizens and gives the impression to those who earn enough to actually pay tax that they are more deserving than those who don’t. It a method of disenfranchisement and an instrument of divide and rule masquerading as concern for the low paid.

    I am not (necessarily) positing an argument for the better paid paying less taxes, if the lower paid were paid a fair wage that was taxed then incomes between the have and have nots would be less extreme.

    Every time the tax threshold is increased it depresses wages and benefits the affluent. It is the fiscal equivalent of repeatedly cutting the legs of a wonky chair until you find yourself on your arse.

    dazh
    Full Member

    he enabled the current mess, spouting the same message

    As opposed to the message that dishonest and feckless workers are the problem in our country? Now who have we heard that from recently? It’s no surprise to me though that you hate Corbyn so much, it’s entirely consistent with other tory sympathisers.

    ctk
    Full Member

    Yes do good, pay your taxes, keep your head down and eventually the Royals, Lords and Barons will make society fair. They really want to, they just haven’t yet because some builders did a couple of fiddles.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    I disliked Corbyn because he was a euro-sceptic and made his party unelectable. No I’m not a Tory sympathiser.

    A party needs a leader that personifies its voters’ ideals, it seems to me that Liz Truss does that perfectly for the Tory party – pass the sick bag please. I don’t think Starmer personifies enough left-wing voters’ ideals, in my case because he back pedals so often I’m not sure he has any – on Europe, on privatisation (they seem scared to use the word), on education, on the environment (you don’t subsidise energy you throw money at making sure people will live in homes that don’t need much energy). No conviction, no commitment. However, Liz Truss is clearly committed to screwing over the most vulnearable in society which is just what her voters want to hear.

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    I disliked Corbyn because he was a euro-sceptic

    Corbyn made totally committed Remainer Keir Starmer shadow brexit minister. And two years after promising Labour voters that he would respect the result of the 2016 referendum Corbyn allowed Starmer to talk him into backing a second referendum, thereby alienating millions of traditional Labour voters.

    What more would you like him to have done?

    Gone for the Jo Swinson strategy of not calling for a second referendum and instead saying “vote for us and we will simply ignore brexit”, despite the LibDems being the first major political party to actually call for a referendum on EU membership?

    binners
    Full Member

    I disliked Corbyn because he was a euro-sceptic and made his party unelectable. No I’m not a Tory sympathiser

    You, me and the rest of the country

    Truly the worst of both worlds. Actually the worst of all worlds

    But the usual suspects of the Jeremy cult will now turn this thread into their usual tedious worship of their utterly useless god who gift-wrapped both Brexit then two Tory election victories, one with the biggest majority since dinosaurs roamed the earth

    Magic ****ing Grandad is as much a reason as where we are as Boris ****ing Johnson, but you’re not allowed to point out that obvious truism out as it’s apparently some sort of blasphemy.

    What more would you like him to have done?

    Well perhaps if the stupid Brexiteer **** had actually not gone AWOL for the entire referendum campaign and had instead represented the overwhelming interests of his party and its voters, instead of echoing Farage, we wouldn’t be where we are now

    And it takes some ****ing front for his disciples to be whinging about Starmer now when their hero delivered Brexit, the most far right project this country has ever seen, on a silver platter then ordered a Moonpig delivery for an 80 seat Tory majority

    Stupidity on a truly epic scale

    So if you’re still prepared to willfully ignore all that now and rewrite history to moan that Starmer only has an 8% lead in the polls, or whatever, then you really are a total and complete ****ing moron

    No offence, like…

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    No offence, like…

    I can’t take offence to you calling me “a total and complete ****ing moron” binners. It seems logical that you would as you have always considered anyone who disagrees with you to be a moron, whatever their politics.

    Well perhaps if the stupid Brexiteer **** had actually not gone AWOL for the entire referendum campaign and had instead represented the overwhelming interests of his party and its voters, instead of echoing Farage, we wouldn’t be where we are now

    So you think Corbyn’s more involved personal intervention would have resulted in Remain winning? I had no idea that you attached so much importance to Corbyn’s powers of persuasion among voters binners.

    This is the same man which you mock, ridicule, and dismiss, as a bearded allotment dwelling moron, right?

    And how did Corbyn manage to both be AWOL for the entire referendum campaign and echo Nigel Farage at the same time?

    Btw I don’t know what “echoing Farage” actually means…… Corbyn talked about the need to clamp down on illegal immigration and asylum seekers? What does “echoing Farage” involve?

    Final question – do often find that you have posted something without thinking about it first?

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    Well said @binners

    He wanted to get rid of trident too… We’d probably all be frantically trying to learn how to speak Russian right now if he’d have got into power. Out of the EU and with no nukes, lol!

    rone
    Full Member

    Your left wing utopia is an unworkable pipe dream which is never happening (and would trash society if it did).

    How can anyone say this with a straight face?

    The amount of people not willing to push back against all that neoliberalism has failed to give us deserves what he have today.

    rone
    Full Member

    The obsession with Corbyn, yeah I’m pissed with him, he enabled the current mess, spouting the same message you are (although to be fair to Corbyn I doubt he’d be condoning tax evasion like you are) see the link.

    The only person of significance to truly push back against the market economy and all its signposted problems – enabled the current mess?

    Centrist delusion.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    What more would you like him to have done?

    Campaign convincingly for remain in the run up to the referendum as the majority of Labour voters were in favour of remain. Instead he spent his time slagging off the EU, over Greece in particular. Take a trip back to before the referendum with this and many other articles:

    https://theconversation.com/with-or-without-eu-jeremy-corbyn-and-the-re-emergence-of-left-wing-euroscepticism-46626

    rone
    Full Member

    You’re a child, and your only point of order is Brexit. Your posts are made up of rants and hysteria and you just want that protecting.

    Like I said too many delusional centrists that can’t see a collapsing economy brought about by their own ignorance.

    And let’s face it you are angry because Starmer has been a reflection of your own failed values. The real reason you stay out of that thread.

    To not understand why the Tories keep doing well and trying to bully people out of threads who can actually construct a layered argument about market economics is linked – but your appalling tiresome ‘who’s the next bad Tory’ rants will never unravel any of that.

    Centrists have no answers.

    kerley
    Free Member

    When some of the posters on this thread have warned of the dangers of moving more and more to the right and making moderate left wing policies seen as extreme I didn’t really take much notice of them but this thread is now the proof of that I suppose.

    Having policies that provide better equality, a fairer society etc, is now a left wing extreme utopia. The tory party have won haven’t they.

    rone
    Full Member

    Having policies that provide better equality, a fairer society etc, is now a left wing extreme utopia. The tory party have won haven’t they.

    Totally.

    Centrists have a lot to answer for.

    That is the exact reason they exist to keep the Tories where the are.

    dazh
    Full Member

    As with the Starmer thread the only people ‘sucking c***’ about Corbyn are reactionary tories who are too embarrassed or ashamed to admit that’s what they are.

    rone
    Full Member

    He wanted to get rid of trident too… We’d probably all be frantically trying to learn how to speak Russian right now if he’d have got into power. Out of the EU and with no nukes, lol!

    You sound like a Reagan era pick-uo driving red neck.

    Lol how has any of the current establishment prevented any of the present situation?

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