Only ‘pain’ for setting up is you’ve got to knock off 5ghz wifi first which is a bit of a faff during set up, then turn back on.

On this,

I had no end of trouble with cheap Smart devices. I bought a 2.4GHz mini router for IoT devices and all the problems went away. One of the best £20 I ever spent, it is a superb bit of kit.

Ah – that’s great Fossy – thanks. I was looking for how to set the end time in the same schedule – didn’t realise it was a separate schedule for on / off.

The time it’s on for is how long it takes to get to temperature, rather than to do with the volume of water.
The volume of the tank is fixed (it’s not like a kettle where you just put in what you need) so leaving it on longer makes it hotter

Not sure where your headed with this statement

If you have a short shower and tank drops by say 20 degrees.

Or a long shower and drop it by 50

Which needs more energy to return to *hot* and set the thermostat to go off.

Your tank should not heat up past it’s set point. If it does you want to get that sorted first and foremost.

The timer can only do a minimum of 1 hour but can do more in 15 minute increments. From stone cold it takes 1.5 hours to get to warm and 2.5 to get to hot, hot won’t last me 2 days without any heating so it’s on for 1 hour every night. Occasionally it’ll need a boost of 15 minutes if it’s really cold due to the incoming cold water temp.

If the tank is at 10 degrees and you like your shower at 30 degrees you have to heat the whole tank to 30 degrees.
You don’t need to heat less water for a shorter shower, you can’t just heat the first half of it to 30 and leave the other half at 10.
.
(You would probably have to go beyond 30 as it will be refilling with cold as it empties, the might be where you’re coming from TR? A shorter one would use less energy in this regard, but you still have to heat the whole tank)

 it’s on for 1 hour every night

The power to the heating element may be set to “on” for 1 hour every night, but there will be a thermostat attached to the tank that sits inbetween the incoming power cable and the heating element. Once the tank is at the temperature set on the thermostat, which may only take 30 minutes, the thermostat will switch off and you will no longer be heating the water or using electricity. It doesn’t just boil for the full hour because that would be incredibly dangerous.

You don’t need to heat less water for a shorter shower, you can’t just heat the first half of it to 30 and leave the other half at 10.

You don’t heat less water, but you use less heat to get the tank back to temperature after taking a shorter shower because the final temperature of your hot water cylinder is higher after a shorter shower than after a longer one. See here: https://bloglocation.com/art/water-heating-calculator-for-time-energy-power

Assuming a 150L tank and a 3kw immersion coil:

heating from 50°C to 65°C uses 2.62 kWh

heating from 40°C to 65°C uses 4.36 kWh

you have to heat the whole tank to 30 degrees

And this would never happen. If you had the hot water tank set to the desired end-use temperature you’d never actually achieve that temperature because, as you say, when using hot water the tank is constantly refilling with cold which would mean it would be always be getting cooled below the required temperature by the incoming tank refill. You keep the hot water hotter than desired end use temperature and then use a blending valve to mix it with cold water and achieve the desired temperature. Your 30°C shower will (or should) be a mix of ~60°C hot water and cold water. You need the tank to be at a minimum of 60-65°C to stop growth of nasties like Legionella.

Well we have one person that understands heating systems and control systems within – and the dangers of how other people think it works…

Sometimes there will be a stat built into the element housing, sometimes there is a remote stat bungeed to the side of the tank.
Thermoclines mean the top of the tank is always wsy hotter than the bottom. Very little mixing occurs during heating. You can often set them at 50c, which does pose a legonella risk, extended tome at 55 to 60 though will probably be fine.

Seriously though, I switched from shower gels full of shite to normal soap nothing but hot water and a bath brush/loofah and don’t reek any more. Same with shampoo, switched to bars and can go days just using hot water without getting greasy and manky.

FTFY, and an even greater cost saving.

Being reported that rates capped to give average bill of £2500 but £400 already announced discount remains. So £2100 – net effect about £180 more than now.

I just noticed taking shower for 20 to 30 mins cost me £1.10 per shower during summertime because that’s the only gas I used. 🙁

I’m still trying to get my head around this. How is 30mins in a shower even a thing? I timed myself last night, didn’t rush or anything, just took a normal shower. It was 3min 45sec. 2 mins of that was spent brushing my teeth, would have been much quicker if I brushed them at the sink. Fair enough I don’t have thick mop of hair to wash but I honestly can’t work out what you would actually do in the shower for so long.

So this new cap that is due to be announced, how bad is the long term borrowing? I mean, more borrowing than covid? Is it all government money?

And what happens for those that tried to be proactive and invested in alternative energy? Do they also have to foot the bill? Should they pay twice?

I’m still trying to get my head around this. How is 30mins in a shower even a thing?

Likewise. Without timing, if someone had asked me how long I take in the shower I’d previously have guessed 6-7 minutes, but it’s actually more like 3-4mins tops. Three of us managed back to back showers (not like that) using the same 10-mins on the timer at Glentress after a wet ride in the past, and still had minutes to spare at the end. Even little Ms a11y only take 5-6 mins and that’s with near waist-length hair.

30min showers, there’s got to be some monkey spanking going on there.

So this new cap that is due to be announced, how bad is the long term borrowing? I mean, more borrowing than covid? Is it all government money?

Still discussion about whether it will be a loan to energy providers – so will increase govt borrowing to generate the cash to lend out, but will not score as cost to government unless energy providers default. If providers do not default then the interest paid will cover the borrowing costs of govt plus a little bit more. Both the govt borrowing rate an the govt loan rate are very low compared with any commercial arrangements – but govt carries all the risk. Ultimately the costs will be carried by the energy bill payers (ie us) by surcharge on bills for next 10/15/20 years unless energy companies go bust and default and then taxpayer picks up.

Or

Alternative is government just gives a straight subsidy to the energy providers, costs count as spend immediately for Govt and costs fall to taxpayers one way or another (ie us). Although Truss believes she can accelerate growth in the economy which increase tax take so won’t need to raise taxes. We will see. But what is true – no action would mean a massive brake on the economy, likely recession and a big drop in tax take – so it may well be cheaper in the long term to borrow hugely to prop up the economy.

Truss is reported to prefer the second option

Either way – doing this alone will take 4+ percentage points off the likely inflation figure (was going to hit 15% next year) – so it’s a no brainer for her really

Thanks for the explanation. In fairness, I’d say we’re heading for a recession either way, but I hope that this support will help throughout winter and beyond for the people who need it.

I think you may be right. There was an interesting graphic on Newsnight last night. Household energy costs adjusted for inflation have been c£1000 pa year since the 1970s until this year. Even with the new cap this is a doubling of that long term trend and that is spending money straight out of our pockets which cannot help but have a massive impact on the economy

So this new cap that is due to be announced, how bad is the long term borrowing? I mean, more borrowing than covid? Is it all government money?

no-one knows, as at the moment the market price for gas is unknown. The more different governments do this, the less usage will be surpressed across europe, and the more prices will rise.

which cannot help but have a massive impact on the economy

it’ll be interesting – if thats how its managed, the impact will really disproportionately hit businesses that serve poor people with discresionary spending. pubs, takeaways, taxis etc in cheaper areas will take a massive hit, whereas those that serve household incomes of £60k+ will see very little impact

What about old people?
They keep their houses at oven temperature, then pay 15% more, with say 40% deferred.
Then they pop off this mortal coil, leaving the outstanding balance to be paid off by the remaining alive bill payers.

Yep. That’s my plan.

Thanks suckers!

I might be being a bit thick but…
Not sure I get what flying Ox is saying. I think you keep tank at a temperature all the time?
I don’t do that.
If I have a shower today, Tuesday, then I need to heat the whole tank from, say 10deg to 50deg or whatever.
I then have my shower, use the hot water which is replaced by cold.
The water which is left further cools over time. I then want another shower on Thursday. The tank is back down to 10deg now, and I still need to heat the whole tank again to get a warm shower.
Having a shorter shower on the Tuesday just leaves more hot water in the tank to cool over over next couple of days.
.
Obviously I don’t have massive showers as that wastes water, but the electricity used is the same (assuming I use the immersion)

I am going to take me shower at work …

Not sure I get what flying Ox is saying. I think you keep tank at a temperature all the time?

No that’s not what he’s saying.

Also cold water entering the tank doesn’t continue to cool your tank once it’s absorbed heat equal to that of its surroundings.

My maths is probably wrong but I think I’m going to be better off for the next 6 months. 🤔

Moved into a new house in April my duel fuel DD was set at £155. A month ago Shell suggested I up it to £170 which I did.

With the £400 discount that’ll knock £66 a month off for the next 6 months so I’ll be back down to £104/month and I’m currently £350 in credit.

Are fuel prices to be frozen at the current level or the proposed October level?

Your mistake is letting it cool between showers. If you have a well insulated tank (we all do by now Shirley?), then it will be much more efficient to leave the tank heater on all the time. Say your shower uses a third of a tank and influx of cold water cools the tank down from *65 to 50 degrees, it will require far less energy to raise that back to 65 degrees and hold it there for the next day or 2 than it will if you turn off the immersion and let the whole tank cool back to ambient.

(*all figures are made up by me)

If you have a well insulated tank (we all do by now Shirley?), then it will be much more efficient to leave the tank heater on all the time

It won’t. Heat loss is proportionate to the differential between the tank and the environment, keeping the tank hot will just maintain heat loss at the highest rate. If left to cool naturally the rate will taper off as the temperature approaches ambient.

Yep no matter how insulated the tank is – heat loss is greatest at the highest delta T

Still doesn’t mean it’s better to use all the water you have heated just because you have heated it. Leaving hot in the tank will mean less heating bringing it to temp next time.

If your tanks going cold in 24 hours think about getting a new tank. (How bojo….. Will save you more than a 10er that your new kettle will)….

30min showers, there’s got to be some monkey spanking going on there.

You can always rely on STW to tell it like it is 🤣

30min showers, there’s got to be some monkey spanking going on there.

You can always rely on STW to tell it like it is 🤣

An expensive monkey spanking hobby LOL!
Actually I don’t shower everyday, too cold. LOL!

Some eye watering numbers in these posts.
What honestly comes to my mind is ‘WTF are people actually doing with all this energy?’ Some must be either at hothouse temperatures, or have all the windows and door open permanently even when heating, or using a tumble dryer 24/7, or leaving a 10kw shower running for hours a day, lights all on full time. Etc. Or are huge cavernous palaces.

We’ve an 1850s stone house, old DG, can’t do any wall insulation, cook on electricity. We’re paying £160 a month for both – now jacked up from the £100 it was pre Unkranian war.

How much wastage is going on out there?

You can always rely on STW to tell it like it is 🤣

No point beating about the bush.

Actually I don’t shower everyday, too cold. LOL!

Has it retreated due to the cold? 🤣

Like many I’m sure, I’ve been thinking about home energy use quite a bit the past few days. Yet to buy some smart plugs but they’re on the list as I need to get the bottom of what’s causing us to use 6,500kWh a year. I thought we were quite efficient in our use already but seeing figures others are posting on here shows me we’re not.

We’ve an 1850s stone house, old DG, can’t do any wall insulation, cook on electricity. We’re paying £160 a month for both – now jacked up from the £100 it was pre Unkranian war.

You’re living like a pauper maybe?

Not sure how you can spend so little on both – our electricity bill for the 2 of is £160 a month (both WFH though) and our heating/cooking is on oil as we’ve no mains gas.

Or are you on the South Coast and wear a down jacket in the house in winter?

Like many I’m sure, I’ve been thinking about home energy use quite a bit the past few days. Yet to buy some smart plugs but they’re on the list as I need to get the bottom of what’s causing us to use 6,500kWh a year.

Thats a similar amount to us (2 adults, 2 young kids, 3 bed semi, gas heating, electric everything else).
I think most of it’s cooking.

There are apps that can connect to a smart meter btw (even if it’s now defunct). Obviously you’re giving strangers access to your data but I’m not too protective about people knowing my energy use!

Loop Apps

Home

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=uk.co.hildebrand.brightionic&hl=en_GB&gl=US

Anyone got a coal fire?

All sales of traditional house coal will be banned in England from 1 May 2023.

“https://www.gov.uk/guidance/selling-coal-for-domestic-use-in-england

Anyone got a coal fire?

Just have to start/continue burning wood on it.

I stuck our figures in here https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/what-are-the-price-cap-unit-rates-/

Bill is jumping from 2300 to 4200!

My numbers are in. I moved into a new place (old house, Calderdale) on Aug 1st, and the energy company here wanted me to set up a monthly DD of £161 to cover costs AT THE CURRENT TARIFF. I knew I wouldn’t use that much so elected for monthly payment by DD based on my meter readings, at least until I got a handle on my usage.

So, my combined gas/elec bill all in for August was £41. Looking at kWh usage where I was last year, January was by far the most ‘expensive’ month. Assuming similar usage (should actually be a bit less), in January 23 I could, after the £67 rebate, expect to be paying c.£60 IF THE PRICE CAP IS FIXED AS IT IS NOW. If the planned doubling of the price cap takes place in October, I’ll be paying £162 for January after the £67 rebate.

Those are the numbers I’m looking at – manageable either way, if not enjoyable in the latter case. But I’m atypical, e.g. no TV, none of the consumer crap like smart speakers that others seem to find necessary.

It’d be nice to think further aid would be targeted at the people who really need it, rather than towards the continuation of facilitating healthy adults spending all winter in their underpants in front of a massive TV, but I have no faith in these clowns achieving that.

In fact, I have no faith in these clowns even keeping the lights on this winter, so have stocked up on large numbers of candles, rechargeable batteries, a hurricane lantern and paraffin. Good luck….

Looks like I spent £120 on gas since April with Ecotricity. If I am reading this right, actual gas usage (not standing charge) the last 3 months has been £4??