So what you’re advocating, DeadlyDarcy, is the abolition of democracy?

To be fair, I don’t pay all these taxes to sustain a political system that can then turn around ask idiots like me what I think?

Dictatorship ftw.
Nasty Korea has the right idea 😉

Fair point. What I should have said is “most people don’t have a clue” which is why leaving such a complicated question up to a referendum of the British electorate would be a crazy idea

Thankfully we have the powerful prediction of economists and politicians to lead us to clarity on this issue guided only by the steady hand of a [ right wing and nationalistic despite being foreign owned ] free press

Democracy in the capitalist system…it is just fantastic

Once we vote to leave then we can get on to the real issue of blaming the unemployed and the ill for all our problems rather than just foreigners and europeans.

@binners still on top form I see !

There would be lots of big negatives if we left the EU, a lot of employment and foreign investment (eg Japanese car plants) is totally dependent upon us being members. Economically the world is becoming increasingly dominated by a number of large economies US, China, India – do we really think that standing isolated as a country of 60m is going to be an advantage in todays and tomorrows world?

I saw Obama suggested yesterday that perhaps the UK should leave the EU, be very careful, a weakened EU is to the advantage of the US.

Even the Tories are trying to fudge the issue by targeting 2017 as the date for a referendum, ie long enough into to the future so they hope the anti-EU mood softens.

andypaul99 – Member
would like to see the demographic of ukip voters, im really hoping they arent a majority of pensioners sitting at home reading the Daily Mail and looking to **** up the prospects for future generations…

POSTED 32 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

and then this was posted without irony?

ohnohesback – Member
We’d probably do very well freed of the shackles of the EU.

POSTED 29 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
id say they are middle aged it stwers!, tho the 1st description pretty much describes my dad perfectly!

If anything the anti-EU attitudes are spreading and hardening. By equivocating, Cameron and co may find themselves desperately trying, and failing to control the juggernaut they have set in motion.

I saw Obama suggested yesterday that perhaps the UK should leave the EU

He said the complete opposite of that he said we should stay as it showed we were outword looking and at the heart of foreign matters but it was up tp us. he also said if it was broken we should try and fix it before leaving
Where on earth did you read that as i heard his actual answer

Goes to google
I repeat my point about how the press are helping 😯

With respect to the relationship between the U.K. and the EU, we have a special relationship with the United Kingdom. And we believe that our capacity to partner with a United Kingdom that is active, robust, outward-looking and engaged with the world is hugely important to our own interests as well as the world. And I think the U.K.’s participation in the EU is an expression of its influence and its role in the world, as well as obviously a very important economic partnership.

Now, ultimately, the people of the U.K. have to make decisions for themselves. I will say this — that David’s basic point that you probably want to see if you can fix what’s broken in a very important relationship before you break it off makes some sense to me. And I know that David has been very active in seeking some reforms internal to the EU. Those are tough negotiations. You’ve got a lot of countries involved, I recognize that. But so long as we haven’t yet evaluated how successful those reforms will be, I at least would be interested in seeing whether or not those are successful before rendering a final judgment. Again, I want to emphasize these are issues for the people of the United Kingdom to make a decision about, not ours.

jambalaya obama was helping cameron by saying that he should renogotiate b4 thinking of quitting
he also said

“With respect to the relationship between the UK and the EU we have a special relationship with the United Kingdom. And we believe that our capacity to partner with a United Kingdom that is active, robust, outward-looking, and engaged with the world is hugely important to our own interests, as well as the world. And I think the UK’s participation in the EU is an expression of its influence and its role in the world, as well as, obviously, a very important economic partnership.”

My company sells a lot into Europe, it would make it a lot more difficult for us, and probably impact negatively on my livelihood. I think it’s a very complex issue that needs to be decided by economists who fully understand it and a referendum would be a terrible idea and the general public does not really understand it (myself included).

I don’t think that you are competent enough to choose the interior decoration in your house, therefore I will decide it for you.

ohnohesback – Member
So what you’re advocating, DeadlyDarcy, is the abolition of democracy?

Yes, that’s it. Exactly. Nail on ze ‘ead.

😆

Jaysus wept.

needs to be decided by economists who fully understand it

What is the old joke ask three economists their view and you get four opinions

TBH I would not trust their opinion or else GO would have got us out of this mess and in fact we would have avoided this mess in the first place, boom and bust would end and we would have permanent growth and low unemployment and the measures taken worldwide would have worked etc

Really would you actually trust the prediction of an economist – you may as well ask an astrologer for all their predictive power

I don’t think that you are competent enough to choose the interior decoration in your house, therefore I will decide it for you.

The decoration of my house does not have rippling effects across everyone in the UK and the rest of the world.

Mine does. My taste really is that bad!

So, European cooperation and integration has to be just about economics does it?

Dunno, i’m much more concerned about this Independence fairytale.

If we stay in we will be forced to adopt 650b whether we like it or not. If we leave we will be free to choose to run 27.5 or walk.

I doubt if most politicians really understand what they mean by “leaving the EU”. Its a lot more complicated than just in/out.

Are they suggesting we carefully unpick 40 years worth of legislation? Which bits do we keep and which bits do we throw out? Do we just keep it all unchanged?

My company sells a lot into Europe, it would make it a lot more difficult for us

Probably almost as difficult as it is for Swiss and Norwegian companies to sell stuff into the EU.

the general public does not really understand it (myself included).

It’s OK, we already got that.

I don’t know why you’re so scathing about economists, JY. I’m sure some of them must have predicted the global credit crisis. Monkeys and shakespeare and all that.

So, European cooperation and integration has to be just about economics does it?

Feel free to suggest other reasons why we should stay or should go.

Feel free to suggest other reasons why we should stay or should go.

Coming from you of all people.

So, European cooperation and integration has to be just about economics does it?

Feel free to suggest other reasons why we should stay or should go.

EU originally set up to prevent another war in Europe?

Just as economics was not the driving force for Europe, so it should not be the sole reason for leaving. Personally I wish the whole debate could be re-phrased to (1) what needs to be done to Europe to make it a success and (2) do we and others want whatever the answer(s) to (1)? Europe is far more of a social and political project born out of the horrors of European conflict than an economics one and there is part of the problem. It has been far more successful socially and arguably politically (with reservations) than it has been economically.

That is not to say that economics should be ignored. For it is the simple fact that ignorance of economics is causing the social and political unrest that will ultimate see the end of the current structure. Europe needs to be honest about these failings and open in constructive dialogue about what a future EU could and should look like. Sadly that is not happening and the debate is being polarised between in/out which ultimately will not serve us well IMO.

Cameron is kind of on the right track here but without the ultimate vision. There is too much party politics going on for that sadly.

The main driver for the EU was / is Germany’s guilt over two World Wars and it’s determination not to start another one. Obviously things have moved on a bit in more recent years, now we have the single currency etc.

aracer

both countries seem very expensive to live in, no experience of switzerland but norway is and very high taxed too, is taht teh trade off you want for leaving the EU

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jsp

The main driver for the EU was / is Germany’s guilt over two World Wars and it’s determination not to start another one. Obviously things have moved on a bit in more recent years, now we have the single currency etc.

Really? Not plan B to achieve dominance in Europe and then a Greater European Empire? 😈

So, European cooperation and integration has to be just about economics does it?
Feel free to suggest other reasons why we should stay or should go.

As an ex-pat in Spain I’d add free movement of people, for starters.

In an general sense I think it would make bugger all difference. We’d be a member of the EEA and have a negotiated trade/fishing/farming/freedom of movement/regulatory agreement that suits no-one and everyone. Passport control would still have a separate Q for EU/EEA members and people will come and go, laws of physics will remain constant (except time, of which people have more of in southern Europe).

The EU is not the be all and end all but trading with it is important.

Is it possible that being out of the EU but in the EEA would be better for trade overall? (genuine question)

Obviously things have moved on a bit in more recent years, now we have the single currency etc.

I dunno, its very difficult to pick a fight with your neighbour when they own half your defence industry, your utilitiues and your transport infrastructure.

I dunno, its very difficult to pick a fight with your neighbour when they own half your defence industry, your utilitiues and your transport infrastructure.

Not really. International commerce continued during WW2 with Germany continuing to pay back loans to British banks.

Coming from you of all people.

You might think I should be banned because I don’t agree with you, but what’s that supposed to mean? 😕

as long as my house continues to increase in value I don’t give a crap.
there, I’ve said it.
wanna make something of it?

Wouldn’t we float away and eventually crash into Greenland..?
Are we insured for that..?

Not really. International commerce continued during WW2 with Germany continuing to pay back loans to British banks

Slightly different. Todays situation is more like if Lanacaster Bombers were beign built by Krupps munitions works (they weren’t were they?)

both countries seem very expensive to live in, no experience of switzerland but norway is and very high taxed too, is taht teh trade off you want for leaving the EU

Jeez – you did this before. You see Luxembourg, Denmark, Sweden up near the top of that list? Scroll down a few pages you’ll find Macedonia, Moldova, Albania located a little below Romania. Do you really think there’s a correlation between EU membership and cost of living? Why exactly would ours change if we left the EU?

Of course the cost of living is also totally unrelated to international trade relationships.

Probably almost as difficult as it is for Swiss and Norwegian companies to sell stuff into the EU.

Yeah, but why make it harder for yourself? I work in a industry with tight margins already, the extra overheads to cut through the red tape every time we exported to Europe would potentially make us have to raise our prices and become uncompetitive. Free trade within Europe is a legitimate argument for staying in Europe, not sure why you tried to make me sound like a idiot for stating it. 😕

except time, of which people have more of in southern Europe

Wish that were actually true 🙁

You might think I should be banned because I don’t agree with you, but what’s that supposed to mean?

😆

One assumes you have the link to that picture of the straw fella permanently on your clipboard so I’ll let you post it.

You’re denying you think I should be banned?