As has been mentioned before, waistline dims, scale weights are basic, possibly even crude markers of good overall physical health. imo

Yeah, but I’ll have abs and then all the girls will think I’m fit. That’s the point, right?? 😛

This is why calorie restriction is hard, because you get really hungry.

Maybe if you restrict far too much, which isn’t really sustainable in the long term anyway and will just lead to yoyo-ing.

I’m on a 500kcal deficit (the sensible recommended amount from MFP) and I can’t say that I find myself really hungry.

(188cm/86kg. MFP Target:1850kcals. 2 stone lost since I started it)

have the willpower to not overeat.

Yay – the magic word!

It’s easy to follow if you track exactly how much you eat and know what the calorific value is AND have the willpower to not overeat.

Very good. I almost envy folk who can put it into such a short sentence.
🙂
But to my mind, there are a few significant and negative caveats there though.

I’m not likely to carry a set of scales with me, wherever I go, to the pub, to the restaurant in order to track exactly with I’m eating.
Nor am I likely to memorize the calorie stats for many different foods and as for will power.
Its been clinically demonstrated that hormonal responses to caloric deficit can influence a subjects decision making process. Thus exposing them to exceeding their caloric allocation.

Yeah, but I’ll have abs and then all the girls will think I’m fit. That’s the point, right??

Could well be.
😀

188cm/86kg. MFP Target:1850kcals. 2 stone lost since I started it)

You seem happy about that and I can’t comment on those stats.

But how healthy are you on the inside ?, systemic inflamation, blood stats, etc.

I’m not likely to carry a set of scales with me, wherever I go, to the pub, to the restaurant in order to track exactly with I’m eating.

That’s an issue with any system though: when you eat out you have a less clear idea about what and how much you are eating. (Also social groups tend to encourage over-eating)

Nor am I likely to memorize the calorie stats for many different foods

Which is why apps like MFP are good because they give you those calorie stats instantly.

I’m on a 500kcal deficit (the sensible recommended amount from MFP) and I can’t say that I find myself really hungry.

Well good for you. However that’s not everyone’s experience. It’s easy to bleat on about willpower, but given our hormone profiles are all different, in some people the drive to eat is far greater than others. Just look at my two kids, both under 4 and had nothing but normal healthy diet all their lives. One eats loads, the other just doesn’t care and has to be really encouraged to eat enough nutrition.

If your drive to eat is less, then you need less willpower to succeed. What affects your drive to eat? Well psychology is a factor, as is brain and blood chemistry. Those things are influenced by what you’ve been eating for years, genetics, the type of exercise you do, and probably lots of other things.

That’s an issue with any system though: when you eat out you have a less clear idea about what and how much you are eating.

Not any system. The point about idiet and similar is that you can eat as much as you want, within reason. So all you have to do when you go out is have vegetables instead of potatoes/chips, and you’re fine. Or dahl instead of rice with your curry etc etc. It’s really quite easy, and I eat out a lot when I’m away for work. Ok so the variety of dishes is reduced, but not by that much.

That’s an issue with any system though: when you eat out you have a less clear idea about what and how much you are eating

I’d respectfully differ with you there. I avoid certain food types which I know will stimulate a larger insulin response. I dined in an Indian restaurant last night.
I did not have rice, I did not have a naan bread. I had lots of very tasty veg and meat. A great meal, over which I didn’t fret about cals.
Obviously, I do not eat like this each night, but then as a consequence (doh !) of my infrequent attendance at my local curry house, I needn’t fret over cals when I do go there and I can leave my phone at home.

Which is why apps like MFP are good because they give you those calorie stats instantly.

May be, but perhaps I don’t want to be staring into my phone while, say for example, I’m attending that social event you describe ^^.
Looking up cal stats when I should be relaxing and chatting, etc.

As I posted, if it gives the result someone wants, then good for them.
🙂

You seem happy about that and I can’t comment on those stats.

I am – but I’m just supplying them cos someone said it would be a useful thing to see on the diet threads. Separates the talkers from the walkers.

But how healthy are you on the inside ?, systemic inflamation, blood stats, etc.

I have absolutely no idea. All I can say is I feel considerably better than I did when I was obese.

Oh and not everyone is obese for the same reason!

I have absolutely no idea. All I can say is I feel considerably better than I did when I was obese.

As I posted, if it gives the result someone wants, then good for them.

Also, for the record (talkers and walkers).
I’ve obtained and maintain good results for being leaner and stronger now than before I found all this stuff being discussed on here, a few years ago now.
😀

EDIT:
I have absolutely no idea.

Then again, without wanting to cause an argument.
I’d question your opinion on food provenance, whether you consider it a significant factor for someone cleaning up their diet or whether it really is just cal counting ?.

I don’t want to be staring into my phone while, say for example, I’m attending that social event you describe ^^.
Looking up cal sats when I should be relaxing and chatting, etc.

Neither do I – but I need something to guide me.

You said you don’t want to memorise calorie stats, but then reeled off foods you avoided because you knew, from memory, that these caused a larger insulin response.

Likewise if I’m out then I’ll pick something that I think will fit my calorie goal, rather than sit tapping at my phone.

Then I’ll enter it later. Sometimes I’ll get a shock and learn something for next time.

Oh and not everyone is obese for the same reason!

What ?, that they haven’t accumulated too much body fat ?.

Why have they accumulated too much body fat? You’re being deliberately obtuse here.

but then reeled off foods you avoided because you knew, from memory, that these caused a larger insulin response

Yeah the list is really small though, and very easy to remember.

You said you don’t want to memorise calorie stats, but then reeled off foods you avoided because you knew, from memory, that these caused a larger insulin response.

Hhmm, you’ve missed the point. Its easier to know that I will not usually eat bread (naan) (its a rule of thumb to be applied at my discretion) than to know the cal stats for anything on the menu.

Actually. Did I hear recently that there was discussion around restaurants listing the Cals for each meal, in their menu ?.

Oh and not everyone is obese for the same reason!

Whilst this is certainly true – my missus sees a lot of obese people in diabetic care, and fundamentally 99% are obese simply because they eat too much.

Sure there are mitigating factors: they may have very strong appetites as you described; they may have very slow metabolisms; they may have some imbalance that makes them feel hungry or means they never feel satiated; there may be psychological issues at play etc etc

But none of those things actually make you fat. The food does that.

My missus is diabetic herself, and has reduced satiety feedback, so she has to carefully watch what she eats and stop when she can see she has eaten enough even if she still feels hungry, because if she relied on her body telling her she was full then she’d be 20 stone.

I’d question your opinion on food provenance, whether you consider it a significant factor for someone cleaning up their diet or whether it really is just cal counting ?.

Again – no idea.

My unresearched opinion is that “eating clean” is really just the same thing as “eating a proper nutritious balanced diet”. But with some dandelion root tea.

But I really don’t know enough about it to comment.

Yeah the list is really small though, and very easy to remember.

Can you point me at one I’m intrigued? (Missus does all the insulin response stuff for obvious reasons and does control her carbs a bit)

Did I hear recently that there was discussion around restaurants listing the Cals for each meal, in their menu ?.

It’s the law in America now I believe BUT apparently no one actually checks that the cals they print are accurate, so many of them are complete bollocks as demonstrated here:

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE2lna5Wxuo[/video]

It’s the law in America now I believe BUT apparently no one actually checks that the cals they print are accurate, so many of them are complete bollocks as demonstrated here:

So is that another issue with the strategy of only counting cals ?.

Also, people’s view on food provenance would be if interest to me.
🙂

So is that another issue with the strategy of only counting cals ?.

More a local issue of toothless legislation in the States I’d say.

What do you mean by “food provenance” Solo?

Do you mean knowing where your food came from and what’s been done to it along the way? Then presumably applying that knowledge somehow to alter your diet?

More a local issue of toothless legislation in the States I’d say.

Well I guess I’ll just have to agree to differ with you. Calorie counting comes with significant draw backs. That it works for some on a very basic level, is as much about the guess work than anything else.
An approach which seems to reply on the model that the human body is nothing more than a simplistic, metabolic, oven. Which clearly, it is not.
🙂

Well I guess I’ll just have to agree to differ with you.

I’m not arguing with you. I’m far from expert and I’m interested in what you have to say. I agree it is just a simplistic model. But in my experience it works well enough for my simplistic brain.

(Just had lunch: white roll with peppered cheese and salad, bag of cheese and onion Transform-A-Snacks, an Aldi Diggers chocolate bar and two bottles of Mountain Mist. As you can see not exactly clean living. Especially on top of the roll and sausage for breakfast and several pints of coffee!)

What do you mean by “food provenance” Solo?

I’m referring to calorie sources. Its my belief that certain calorie sources, available to us today, are not a wise choice with respect to enjoying optimal nutrition.

Well no, I don’t think so. The problem with low calorie diets is that you can get really hungry.

‘Most’ people are over weight because they indulge in calorie heavy food in large quantities, that’s normally things like too much food on your plate, too much pudding, finishing off other people’s food, too much alcohol, and too much snacking.

I understand your point about everyone being different and so forth, and I really have tried to read some of the articles that go on about insulin and hormones and whatever, but after about a paragraph I sort of lose the will to live.

Most people understand that cutting down on their portions of food, the types of food that they are eating will loose the kilos

Oh and not everyone is obese for the same reason!

True, but the VAST majority of overweight people are. ( overweight for the same reason, science has found the cause, and its located on your face, centrally between your nose and your chin)

I’m not arguing with you. I’m far from expert and I’m interested in what you have to say. I agree it is just a simplistic model. But in my experience it works well enough for my simplistic brain.

Agreed, not looking for a flame-off, just chewing the fat.
🙂

it is just a simplistic model. But in my experience it works well enough for my simplistic brain.
We’ve established this too and I’d go along with, what works for you, is good enough. I’d hesitate to say that only you can judge whats working for you. But then there are some folk who don’t give a shit and will let the NHS clear up the mess they’ve made of themselves, after 20, 30 years of poor diet and lack of exercise.

(Just had lunch: white roll with peppered cheese and salad, bag of cheese and onion Transform-A-Snacks, an Aldi Diggers chocolate bar and two bottles of Mountain Mist. As you can see not exactly clean living. Especially on top of the roll and sausage for breakfast and several pints of coffee!)

Interesting, I’m assuming you are though, still within your caloric allocation for today ?.
But your lunch kind of highlights how we differ in our approach to sourcing our cals. Tuna, olive oil, black pepper and some pistachio nuts.

What are the ‘Transform A snacks‘

ts my belief that certain calorie sources, available to us today, are not a wise choice with respect to enjoying optimal nutrition.

So say someone eats “bad” calorie food, but their diet has a suitable balance of carb/fat/protein macros and contains the recommended levels of fibre, vitamins, minerals etc

Are you saying they’ll still be worse off than someone who achieved the same basic nutrition eating “good” calorie food?

Or are you saying it is just easier to reach that goal by eating “good” calories?

(I enjoyed the nutrition from my crisps by the way 🙂 )

True, but the VAST majority of overweight people are. ( overweight for the same reason, science has found the cause, and its located on your face, centrally between your nose and your chin)

Yeah? I know quite a few people who eat quite sensibly and are still overweight. I’d like to see the statistical breakdown of this please, email in profile.

Or if you have no stats, then maybe you’re just assuming about the VAST majority of people…?

Interesting, I’m assuming you are though, still within your caloric allocation for today ?.

Yep should be. Not totted it up yet but I usually allow around 6-700 kcals for lunch.

What are the ‘Transform A snacks’

Not healthy. 😀

But actually only 123kcal for a bag so not as bad as you might expect for crisps.

but after about a paragraph I sort of lose the will to live.

Well, the highway code isn’t exactly a riveting read. But you know you’ve got to get through it if you want a license.

Most people understand that cutting down on their portions of food, the types of food that they are eating will loose the kilos

Yes, people, possibly everyone, may know this. But you wait until your endocrine system has had its way with you. Its either going to keep on making you feel hungry. Or its going to lower your BMR and store more of your cals as fat. Things can get really out of whack. As Jean Mayer demonstrated with some of his experiments.

True, but the VAST majority of overweight people are. ( overweight for the same reason, science has found the cause, and its located on your face, centrally between your nose and your chin)

I’m not sure thats entirely accurate.
😉

So say someone eats “bad” calorie food, but their diet has a suitable balance of carb/fat/protein macros and contains the recommended levels of fibre, vitamins, minerals etc

Are you saying they’ll still be worse off than someone who achieved the same basic nutrition eating “good” calorie food?

Yes, because as you point out, theres more to food than just the cals.
A basic example might be to ask about the omega 3 content of a diet which contains a lot of grain based product or is otherwise processed.
IME, its widely proposed that a stereotypically western diet is significantly low in omega 3, which has opened a marketing opportunity for people to sell plastic tubs of fish oil capsules.
Does counting cals alone, address such concerns ?.

Yes, because as you point out, theres more to food than just the cals.

That sounds like option 2 though – i.e. it is easier to get all the right things if you eat “good” calories (I’m assuming good calories are fresh fruit, nuts, unprocessed stuff etc)

Does counting cals alone, address such concerns ?.

Nope but does significantly low Omega 3 make people fat?

Solo, you’re right, it’s not ‘entirely‘ accurate

That sounds like option 2 though

Well then you have your answer. To use your term of “good calorie food“.
Surely it makes the most sense, but requires additional attention beyond simply counting your calories. You’re saying we should be looking to and counting good calories.

Nope but does significantly low Omega 3 make people fat?

As we’ve discussed though, its not just about being fat. People can be slim and unwell.
Systemic inflammation is a critical contributor to conditions such as atherosclerosis. Omega 3 is an anti inflammatory EFA. Slim people can and do suffer from atherosclerosis. For example.

EDIT:

A lot of the time, the clue is in the title.

Essential fatty acid ?.

Theres probably not too much EFA or Essential Amino Acids in the Transform A snack.
But I accept that isn’t why you chose to eat them.
🙂

As we’ve discussed though, its not just about being fat. People can be slim and unwell.

Yeah completely agree. In fact I believe the mortality rates for underweight people are actually worse than for fatties.

So I should probably qualify my earlier statement and say that I think “Calories In < Calories Out” is a simplistic model but one that works for the purposes of losing weight (which was the OP).

If you want it to be healthy (beyond the health benefits of no longer being obese) then yeah, fair enough, you’ll have to eat better foods to hit those other targets.

That sound like a fair summary of both our positions?

(Personally I couldn’t be faffed. I get about as far as keeping a lazy eye on my macros and salt intake and trying to eat enough fruit and veg to keep me regular)

(Just had lunch: white roll with peppered cheese and salad, bag of cheese and onion Transform-A-Snacks, an Aldi Diggers chocolate bar and two bottles of Mountain Mist. As you can see not exactly clean living. Especially on top of the roll and sausage for breakfast and several pints of coffee!)

Assuming you’re not joking/trolling, you can’t honestly believe that lunch is healthy, regardless of how much weight you’re losing? Is that typical? There is more to overall health than the readout on the scales. ETA: not trying to be too harsh, good work on the 2 stone lost already BTW!!

if the stw-dieticians were to refuse one single mouthful of food per post they make on diet threads, none of them would be bulging their way into the obese zone of bmi.

good luck op, its a long slow process, try not to weigh yourself more than once a week and accept that you will have a couple/few of pounds natural variation. recording your stats will hopefully show a trend line in the right direction. Just because your weight doesnt change, doesnt necessarily mean what you are doing is not working.

eat clean, train hard, fight easy.

That sound like a fair summary of both our positions?

Well:

So I should probably qualify my earlier statement and say that I think “Calories In < Calories Out” is a simplistic model but one that works for the purposes of losing weight (which was the OP).

I’d prefer to include your new phrase “Good Calorie foods” as this could also lower the glycemic load of said diet.
🙂

So, perhaps:
So I should probably qualify my earlier statement and say that I think “Calories from good calorie foods In < Calories Out” is a simplistic model but one that works for the purposes of losing weight (which was the OP).

Just my 2 penneth worth.

Soobalias.

How does posting here make me a chubbster ?.

Could people who have achieved decent body recomposition resulting in lower B/F, as well as increased muscle mass. Just want to contribute, based on their experience and reading ?.