So these French Elections

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  • So these French Elections
  • Am I getting this right? Zulu believes a nazi party are left wing? jeezo -he is further to the right than I thought – how far to the right can yo be if you think a nazi party are lefties.

    Zulu-Eleven – Member

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6lL5pbIImY

    Whilst thinking of Lazy Town no doubt, eh ?

    National Socialism is right wing TJ? 😯

    One of the most amusing things about the “usual suspect” lefties on here us their inability to comprehend an argument beyond the most simple “four legs good, two legs bad” – when you throw them with a nuanced argument like “a dichotomy of a ‘right wing’ party with ‘left wing’ economic policies” they drop into a flat spin!

    wrecker
    Member

    Am I getting this right?

    No you’re not Teej. No you’re not.

    Zulu-11 is very right and not trolling. Ernie, the typical left right dimension is overly simplistic. That is one of the first things you learn when studying politics or “state science”.

    And the nazis were indeed lefties of the highest order.

    Thought experiment – why are unions who support labour often highly against open/large immigration? Does that make a union right- wing? The answer is no, immigration does not fit in on a left/right scale.

    grum
    Member

    I hate to say it but for once Z-11 is correct.

    Don’t the BNP have similar policies designed to appeal to disaffected ‘old labour’ voters?

    Zulu-11 is very right and not trolling. Ernie, the typical left right dimension is overly simplistic. That is one of the first things you learn when studying politics or “state science”.

    Read what I wrote in my OP.

    And you could do too grum, RE : “Don’t the BNP have similar policies designed to appeal to disaffected ‘old labour’ voters?” I mention the “positive” aspect of ordinary working people voting far right.

    .

    And the nazis were indeed lefties of the highest order.

    Guardian readers no doubt.

    wrecker – Member

    Am I getting this right?

    No you’re not Teej. No you’re not.

    So zulu is not claiming a nazi party are lefties?

    And the nazis were indeed lefties of the highest order.

    Really -*checks history books*

    Tandemjerry: don’t know if you’re pulling my leg but they were socialists.

    Electoral platform of the National Socialist German Workers Party

    11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.
    12. Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
    13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.
    14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.
    15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions.
    16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.
    17. We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.
    18. We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race.
    19. We demand that Roman law, which serves a materialist ordering of the world, be replaced by German common law.
    20. In order to make it possible for every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education, and thus the opportunity to reach into positions of leadership, the State must assume the responsibility of organizing thoroughly the entire cultural system of the people. The curricula of all educational establishments shall be adapted to practical life. The conception of the State Idea (science of citizenship) must be taught in the schools from the very beginning. We demand that specially talented children of poor parents, whatever their station or occupation, be educated at the expense of the State.
    21. The State has the duty to help raise the standard of national health by providing maternity welfare centers, by prohibiting juvenile labor, by increasing physical fitness through the introduction of compulsory games and gymnastics, and by the greatest possible encouragement of associations concerned with the physical education of the young.

    Hardly looks like it was written by Thatcher, does it πŸ˜‰

    swedishmatt – Member

    Tandemjerry: don’t know if you’re pulling my leg but they were socialists.

    really? Nazis are socialists?

    *checks history books again*

    Does this mean Ernie is a Nazi? he does appear to be a socialist.

    Tandemjerry: no idea what you’re trying to achieve. Have fun.

    Nah, Ernie’s a dyed in the wool Trot πŸ˜‰

    swedishmatt – Member

    Tandemjerry: no idea what you’re trying to achieve. Have fun.

    Poking fun at the weird concept of a nazi / facist party being lefties

    Tandemjerry: would be happy to discuss over a beer. No idea about your level of interest. Typical left right dimension revolves around, in essence, the size/influence of the state.

    Socialism/communism on the left and facism/conservatism on the right.

    Nazis were left-wing with strong authoritarian tendencies. Facism is not the same thing as the german nazi party. Fair enogh, some would argue the german 1930-1940 party of national socialist democratic party were neither right ir left wing so feel free to have that opinion. I implore you to find a party with the word social and worker in the title to be a right-wing party amywhere else.

    You don’t have to trust me on this, google is your friend. The media talk is overly

    I was meant to write that the media and powers that be often refer to parties with a rstrictive stance to immigration to be “right wing”. This type of labelling is truly bot reflective of their general policies on the size of the state (used in its broad sense and overly simplistic model of a singular political dimension).

    The uk media landscape is utterly simplistic.

    I simply disagree – the French Nazis originally referred to are not lefties, nor were the german Nazis or any other nazi / facist party. The ideology is far right despite leftist rhetoric used in some propaganda.

    Tandemjerry: The french nazis? Front national? They’re not nazis.

    Anyway, i’ll leave this discussion as it’s late.

    Tandemjerry: what do i know. Politics is there to be discussed. My former lecturers and writers of books on political ideology, and i, would say you’re wrong on NSDAP anno 1940.:)

    Im bo expert on front national.

    Good night.

    Not nazis? Really?

    grum
    Member

    TJ, it’s not as simple as right or left. Here’s one example

    I expect no less from Z-11 but it’s interesting to note how a few others are happy to say rather silly things which contravene accepted protocols when describing political ideologies. I guess though, that it conforms with that desperate middle-class need to engage in futile intellectual dueling and point scoring over pointless pedantic points, which is sometimes so prevalent on here.

    swedishmatt – Member

    I was meant to write that the media and powers that be often refer to parties with a rstrictive stance to immigration to be “right wing”. This type of labelling is truly bot reflective of their general policies on the size of the state (used in its broad sense and overly simplistic model of a singular political dimension).

    The uk media landscape is utterly simplistic.

    So utterly simplistic that you do it yourself, ie, you equate any state ownership with socialism – everything else is simply dismissed.

    A 100 years ago the neoliberalism which Thatcher espoused would have been considered by many as left-wing, coming as it did as a conclusion by some from classical neoliberal. However as we understand it Thatcher was not left-wing, she was right-wing. Likewise as we understand it, neo-nazis, the BNP, the Front National in France, etc, are far-right organisations, despite Z-11’s protestations. And you can fart around as much as you like with your “yes but if you look at this particular policy” and “but the Nazis used the word socialism” but it won’t changed the facts, other than in your own personal silly little worlds.

    Well that is pretty dodgy – its all somones interpretation and much of that is highly questionable.

    Grums post not Ernies

    Ernie, ah yes. I only studied this at university for four years. It tends to lead you to discuss what you call the pedantic points.

    I btw didn’t equate ‘the size of the state’ to state ownership. That’s your interpretation of what i wrote.

    Ernie, ah yes. I only studied this at university for four years.

    πŸ˜€ priceless………..”I went to university” !

    I thought you were going to bed btw ?

    I btw didn’t equate ‘the size of the state’ to state ownership. That’s your interpretation of what i wrote.

    You want to read what I wrote. Here it is again :

    “you equate any state ownership with socialism”

    sweedishmatt – its not a “rstrictive stance to immigration” that makes them right wing its the racist nazi ideology

    Ernie, make fun of my degree. I don’t mind, i wouldn’t study it again. It is only useful when discussing shit on internet boards.

    Tj: one last comment, nazi refers to the german nazi party. Nazi is not another word for ‘racist’.

    Im writing this on my phone which has 5% battery. I dont equate any state owbership wirh socialism? Like really? How do you make that?

    Ernie, i dont have a beef with you. I dont support FN.

    Never argue on the internet.

    Ernie, make fun of my degree. I don’t mind

    I not making any fun of your degree.

    Sadly however, I couldn’t give a monkeys that you’ve got a degree.

    Anymore than I give a monkeys that Gordon Brown has a PhD.

    Ernie: good!

    Tj: one last comment, nazi refers to the german nazi party. Nazi is not another word for ‘racist’.

    there are many other groups that follow a nazi ideology – BNP for one.

    racism is one component of a nazi philosophy.

    BTW swedishmatt, RE : “Never argue on the internet”…… wrong attitude. Argue by all means, and the fact that you have a degree should mean that you can argue well. But don’t try the old “I went to university” stroke – you won’t win like that, not with me anyway. Besides, it’s always best to keep your cards close to your chest.

    juan
    Member

    Tandemjerry: The french nazis? Front national? They’re not nazis.

    Well of course not due to this rather peculiar technicality that a nazi is indeed german, the FN voters don’t technically qualified. However, if you leave this technicality aside, everything else fits in. And as for their so called “social economics” you have to be kidding right:
    “Since the euros people’s buying power as gone down, so I propose we go back to the Franc”. Because right now in the middle of a global economic crisis, going back to the old money and just devaluate it is quite a good idea.

    jota180
    Member

    the FN voters don’t technically qualified.

    There’s a technical qualification? City & Guilds or a Euro equivalent or something?

    I suspect it’d be a residential course at some sort of Summer camp πŸ˜€

    Back to the original topic…..

    These French elections are a key moment in stage 2 of the denouement of the European Folly as represented by the current Euro project.Stage 1 was the economic and financial crisis that remains on-going and is about to blow another vent. Stage 2 is further social unrest and the questioning of political legitimacy. Political parties are being questioned across Europe and failing to respond. France and the Netherlands yesterday were merely steps on an on-going path that is as ugly as it is predictable. A challenging summer ahead.

    You really do want the Euro / EU to fail and will distort everything to make it fit your view won’t you. πŸ™„

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