So, Scottish Independence then. Not really wanted by Scots.

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  • So, Scottish Independence then. Not really wanted by Scots.
  • Premier Icon irc
    Subscriber

    Maybe they’re scared of losing the safety blanket of having England to escape to for 25 years if things aren’t working out up there

    Not sure how that would work. Eire has been independent for decades. There are still no passport controls at the border and the Irish come and go for work in the UK as they please. If an independent Scotland and the remainer of the UK were both in the EU then there would be no restrictions on the people of either country working in the other.

    trailmonkey
    Member

    Not sure how that would work

    it was a joke, intended to point out to the poster that there are more things that scots depend on england for than public spending subsidy (such as employment opportunity) and his own post highlighted it perfectly.

    but seeing as you brought the subject up, i don’t think that you can guarantee english membership of the eu indefinitely or that eu employment regs will always remain the same.

    athgray
    Member

    I imagine on a forum like this that most of us that post here are into outdoor pursuits. If I were from England and determined to see the back of Scotland, I may be just a bit less scathing of a country containing the vast bulk of the UK’s open countryside, most of the proper mountain biking, great road biking, nearly all of it’s winter sports, some of the best water pursuits and the only areas of peaceful wilderness. I understand perhaps this is not everyone here’s cup of tea.

    err… athgray why?

    It isn’t like I can’t go skiing and cycling in France despite it no longer being an English possession…

    Logic fail… πŸ˜•

    My personal view. Love Scotland although only lived 6 months there. There is some genuine chippiness both ways England <-> Scotland. I just get a bit tired of the same argument going round and round and round and round and round. I wish the Scots would make their mind up once and for all. Otherwise it will become somewhere that most English people would just like gone… a bit like Northern Ireland

    athgray
    Member

    Stoatsbrother. Are you saying you would rather tuck into a Croque Monsieur and a glass of Chateau Neuf du Pape on a sunny terrace overlooking the piste at Chamonix, over a bacon and black pudding doubler and a can of irn bru in a rain drenched cafe at Glenshee?
    Shame on you!
    Seriously though, my wife and mother to my two children is from Surrey, my inlaws live there and we have some good times down there. I think that there is more in common than divides us, and I think we can gain more being together. I am a proud Scot, however don’t feel the need to be independant to be more Scottish. People down South often don’t understand that the government here are considered to be doing a decent’ish job, but I worry that the yes camp are being carried away by the vigour of Alex salmond more than anything else. We will have to wait and see.

    Are you saying you would rather tuck into a Croque Monsieur and a glass of Chateau Neuf du Pape on a sunny terrace overlooking the piste at Chamonix, over a bacon and black pudding doubler and a can of irn bru deep fried Chewit in a rain drenched cafe at Glenshee?

    Oh, it’s a tough choice….! πŸ˜‰

    Premier Icon matt_outandabout
    Subscriber

    I was against it at first. However, the longer I live here and the more I hear from (particularly) Mr Salmond and local people, the more I agree with independance.
    I spent many years growing up and living in north west England, where Westminster based politicians and the south east focus that they had was obvious.
    Scotland is even more separated – geographically, socially, economically and in thinking and outlook.
    I do think there is a strong argument for ‘giving it a go’ on our own.

    (I am shocked I hold this position by the way, I did not a few months ago…)

    bencooper
    Member

    Yup, supporting independence crept up on me too. One big factor is that we have a government we voted for (unlike Westminster), a government generally agreed to be doing not a bad job (unlike Westminster), and a government that is actually positive about things instead of continually spreading doom (unlike Westminster). But it’s not just about the current government in either Holyrood or Westminster, it’s the feeling that we should be big enough to look after ourselves, for good or bad.

    Oh dear god I hate these threads, they’re like car crashes, we know how it’s going to go but we’re compelled to get involved.

    Most Scots couldn’t care less about actual independence we like getting on with our lives as they are at the moment (and no doubt will get on with them if the split came). You can pick a source and figure out whether we’ll be Norway or Greece but no-one here has the info and those that might have appear to not be able to count to 5.

    There is some Anti-English sentiment, but then there is Anti-Scot south of the border. I got slagged for being from Edinburgh last weekend even though I was back in the town i grew up in.

    Quit it with the deep fried food references I only know of one place that does deep fried mars bars and that’s for the tourists.

    To those who want to come and enjoy the outdoors then you’re welcome and even the keyboard warriors can bring their iPads but beware the sun it might burn your peely wally skin (certainly has lightened our pale blue colour to almost pink).

    Pigface
    Member

    If Scotland does get independence how would they feel if the good people of Orkney decided they wanted to go it alone?

    I dont think the rugby team will get any better whatever happens πŸ˜‰

    hora
    Member

    I’m all for independence after finding out that the social security cost for Scotland far outweighs any oil/gas revenue.

    Bye.

    poly
    Member

    yossairian — My wife lived in Scotland for most of her teenage years and was repeatedly beaten up at school for being english,

    Without knowing the exact details can I suggest she was not targeted because she was english, she was targeted because she was different. She could have been from Shetland, Stornoway or ‘a posh area 20 miles away’ and a different accent, not having been part of the ‘gang’ for the first half of school or any other reason might be enough to “justify” an attack. I am in no way condoning such behaviour – but in my experience there is no deep seated resentment against the English, especially not against English people actually living in Scotland.

    Bear in mind that depending on the school any of the following would have been considered acceptable reasons for bullying amongst peers 20+ years ago (and may still be today):

    – you don’t support the same football team
    – you are smarter than the average kids at that school
    – you are dumber than the average kids at that school
    – you wear a blazer or tie to a school where it is not compulsory
    – your school uniform is not as smart as other kids (or 2nd hand)

    Neil

    zokes
    Member

    If Scotland does get independence how would they feel if the good people of Orkney decided they wanted to go it alone?

    I doubt they’d care too much about Orkney, but the Shetlands would be another matter. Obviously this is where we get a famous scotsman’s englishman’s view that he supports self-determination of any peoples… πŸ˜‰

    legend
    Member

    What are we afraid of? I wouldn’t trust the folk in Holyrood with my piggy bank, never mind a country.

    Let’s not forget this little lesson from the past en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme

    grum
    Member

    I’m all for independence after finding out that the social security cost for Scotland far outweighs any oil/gas revenue.

    Bye.

    Tim Harford looked at this on More or Less a little while ago and that’s just not true.

    whatnobeer
    Member

    Let’s not forget this little lesson from the past en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme

    Hardly that relevant is it, really?

    wrecker
    Member

    I make no judgement on the leanings of this website, just a google
    http://www.scotlandoffice.gov.uk/scotlandoffice/16281.html

    coffeeking
    Member

    am in no way condoning such behaviour – but in my experience there is no deep seated resentment against the English, especially not against English people actually living in Scotland.

    Totally agree, certainly now. I’ve lived here for ~10% of my life now and I find it just as friendly as England was to me. Sure there’s gentle ribbing about being a foreigner but I’ve only once or twice had what I’d consider off-kilter comments and they were from people who I’d have expected to pick up on anything different about me and use it anyway (morons) not specifically my origins. Most of the locals I’ve met in my time here have been fascinated to find out where I’m from and strangely loads of them have lived or worked near where I used to at some point in their lives. Even my slightly dodgy next door neighbours have no issues with us πŸ™‚

    uponthedowns
    Member

    it was a joke, intended to point out to the poster that there are more things that scots depend on england for than public spending subsidy (such as employment opportunity) and his own post highlighted it perfectly

    I’m sure we’ll be able to work in England after Independence just like we can work in any other EU country. Maybe post independance and having to stand on its own feet Scotland might rediscover the enterprise and entreprenurial flair it seems to have lost over the last century then there might be less reason to be an economic migrant.

    zokes – Member

    BigButSlimmerBloke – Member

    yet you can’t stop posting?

    As it clearly irks you, it seems a worthwhile exercise
    As it hasn’t it’s clearly a waste of time, but then if mindlessly posting drivel on a thread you have no interest in or knowledge of just in the vain hope of irritating someone you’ve never is what passes for entertainment, I guess you’re easily pleased, if a bit sad. Still, no point in wasting pity on simpletons, give you a bucket and I’m sure you’ll be happy.

    As for this

    Quit it with the deep fried food references I only know of one place that does deep fried mars bars and that’s for the tourists

    I don’t know of anywhere that does deep fried mars bars, but if that’s what anyone thinks is going to win an argument about independence, let them get on with it – other people’s ignorance isn’t something I get too worked up about. Although |I do love that these “Scotland will never go it alone” invariably start form the point of blind ignorance and just take a downward spiral from there.
    I mean really

    Let’s not forget this little lesson from the past en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme

    – how desperate is that?

    zokes
    Member

    As it hasn’t it’s clearly a waste of time, but then if mindlessly posting drivel on a thread you have no interest in or knowledge of just in the vain hope of irritating someone you’ve never is what passes for entertainment, I guess you’re easily pleased, if a bit sad. Still, no point in wasting pity on simpletons, give you a bucket and I’m sure you’ll be happy.

    You wrote all that just to prove that you’re not irked? πŸ™„

    grum
    Member

    Never experiencd anti English/British sentiment in Scotland – some good natured piss taking and some interesting debates about independance, but nothing serious.

    And no, as an Englishman I don’t want an independant Scotland – we need all the anti Tory voters we can get.

    No, we need to try and make the north of England part of Scotland when they go independent.

    wrecker
    Member

    No, we need to try and make the north of England part of Scotland when they go independent.

    Why don’t you just move?

    hora
    Member
    grum
    Member

    Why don’t you just move?

    Definitely thinking about it, but I quite like it here, and I don’t think the government in London is ever going to be representative of/give a shit about the north of England, which I think is wrong.

    This is the radio show I was on about – http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/player/b013gd28

    They seem to conclude that if there is a subsidy to Scotland it’s a very small one, and not enough to worry about.

    wrecker
    Member

    They seem to conclude that if there is a subsidy to Scotland it’s a very small one, and not enough to worry about.

    So (and I’m not stirring when I say this); if the oil revenues are sufficient to make Scotland break even with the welfare bill, where is the rest of the money going to come from? Is the tax take going to be sufficient to pay for a military, health service, police, education etc?
    Excuse my ignorance, but I wasn’t aware that there was a lot of industry up there (Whisky, much else?)

    I’m not anti scottish independence, so I’m not trolling here.

    druidh
    Member

    There is a reasonably independent/sceptical review of the Scottish Governments calculations here: http://fullfact.org/factchecks/scotland_independence_salmond_economy-3239

    IIRC, the last figures I checked out indicated that Scotland is running at a net deficit, but that the deficit is less per capita than that currently being run up by the UK.

    I think it’s fair to say that politicians of ALL parties have now accepted the fact that Scotland can easily afford to be an independent country. However, the the viability of an independent Scotland would obviously depend upon the policies of whatever government was in power. At the moment, the discussion seems to assume that those policies would always be those of the SNP. The forthcoming referendum should be on independence, not on SNP policies. That is what general elections are for.

    zokes
    Member

    I’m not anti scottish independence, so I’m not trolling here.

    Clearly you have no interest in this thread then, and shouldn’t post;-). Basically, you’re allowed to discuss this topic if you’re for independence. If you’re against, you’re trolling, and if you don’t care apparently you shouldn’t post at all πŸ™„

    wrecker
    Member

    However, the SNP has previously indicated that North Sea Oil will be the driving force behind Scotland’s progression. When John Swinney MSP first made the claim that Scotland could be six richest nation, he explicitly acknowledged that calculations were based on Scotland acquiring its ‘geographical share (of) offshore resources’.

    He must be intending to cancel welfare then. Either that or send the unemployed south of the border.

    zokes
    Member

    And what happens when the oil runs out, which it will, and quite soon…

    wrecker
    Member

    And what happens when the oil runs out, which it will, and quite soon…

    No offence zokes, but if this the case (and I’m not saying it isn’t), then surely this would be good reason for you to support scottish independence?
    It’ll leave the rest of us far better off certainly in the long run (if true).

    hora
    Member

    Greece 2012
    Italy/Spain 2013
    Scotland 2016

    πŸ˜‰

    Hora, yeah we get it you amongst others predict financial ruin, while others don’t. The way Westmister is going 2016 will be UK.

    hora
    Member

    Well we need an English Braveheart in our advertising πŸ˜†

    druidh
    Member

    wrecker – Member
    No offence zokes, but if this the case (and I’m not saying it isn’t), then surely this would be good reason for you to support scottish independence?
    It’ll leave the rest of us far better off certainly in the long run (if true).

    You must remember that some folk are driven by more than greed and economics. Some have a serious/sentimental attachment to the UK and do believe we are greater as one combined nation.

    Of course, the fact that the rUK will no longer be a nuclear power also sits uneasy with some.

    wrecker
    Member

    Of course, the fact that the rUK will no longer be a nuclear power also sits uneasy with some.

    You don’t really believe that do you?

    druidh
    Member

    The issue seems to be that there is nowhere to store the nukes.

    coffeeking
    Member

    At the moment, the discussion seems to assume that those policies would always be those of the SNP. The forthcoming referendum should be on independence, not on SNP policies. That is what general elections are for.

    The problem is that the SNP seem to be claiming ownership of the whole process. It was evident on the TV last night on the televised debate where she claimed that if Scotland wanted to get rid of nukes on the clyde the only way it could guarantee it was to vote independence, when in reality that still assumes one of the other parties don’t get in – labour for instance don’t seem overly bothered by moving them.

    The major issue is that no-one has any real figures to throw around as no-one has done it before. What’s more, the pro-seperatist folk throw around emotions and “clearly this means this” and no hard evidence, while the opposition point out the flaws and look anti-scotland. It’s an insane arrangement and a complete waste of time and effort.

    You don’t really believe that do you?

    It clearly does sit uneasy with some, and there are major questions on where they’d put them without, but there are a few sites that could be used/adopted.

    zokes
    Member

    And what happens when the oil runs out, which it will, and quite soon…

    No offence zokes, but if this the case (and I’m not saying it isn’t), then surely this would be good reason for you to support scottish independence?

    Having already said it once, I’ll say it again: I don’t really care either way. But looking a long way forward: china 1.1 bn; India 1 bn; USA 300m; eu 800 m; Scotland 5 m. In a future global economy suffering from resource limitation I’d be looking to be part of the biggest economy possible. I accept that Scotland wants to remain in the eu, but then apart from a few loony Tories, so too does the rest of the uk. If ultimately the obvious answer to the eus troubles is true federation, I’m puzzled what’s to be gained by the upheaval of Scottish independence when somewhere down the line it may well be swallowed whole by the eu.

    wrecker
    Member

    The issue seems to be that there is nowhere to store the nukes.

    I’d like to nominate Liverpool. πŸ˜€
    Seriously, there will be more than one place in the whole of the UK where the nukes could be stored. It’ll cost a few quid but it’s perfectly doable if the RUK want to retain the nuclear capability.

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