So Russia Tells the EU to mind it's own business or go cold

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  • So Russia Tells the EU to mind it's own business or go cold
  • ernie_lynch
    Member

    In a letter to the leaders of 18 European countries, Mr Putin made clear that his patience would run out over Kiev’s $2.2 billion gas debt to Russia unless a solution could be brokered urgently.

    So where is the full text of this letter which ABC News claims is of some concern ?

    Or do they believe that they should read it, and we should just accept their interpretation ?

    Personally I’m surprised that Russia hasn’t already applied sanctions against the West. After all sanctions is the very first thing which western governments reach for when a weaker country displeases them.

    EDIT : by weaker country I mean weak bargaining position. No chance of the West apply sanctions against China. And it’s not because they are freedom loving good guys.

    chewkw
    Member

    Good on Putin. ๐Ÿ˜ˆ

    ninfan
    Member

    Good on Putin. ๐Ÿ˜ˆ

    +1 ๐Ÿ˜ˆ

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    So where is the full text of this letter which ABC News claims is of some concern ?

    Or do they believe that they should read it, and we should just accept their interpretation ?

    Personally I’m surprised that Russia hasn’t already applied sanctions against the West. After all sanctions is the very first thing which western governments reach for when a weaker country displeases them.

    Not sure on the full text maybe you could ask Dave for a look at his, the bigger issue is more how little power europe has in this compared to their puffed up chest cock waving, all it takes is one word and the EU has no gas.

    chewkw
    Member

    EU is like the grasshopper squaring up to a rooster. ๐Ÿ˜†

    ” … puffed up chest cock waving … ” but what EU insists on not knowing is the fact Ukraine was formerly part of USSR and the people have more in common with Russia then EU or the West. In a way Putin is willy waving in his own “garden” but EU/West just want to take at peek at his willy. Bunch of busy bodies ๐Ÿ˜†

    Now EU/West cannot back off without the fear of losing face because they have been caught being a peeping Tom.

    The conclusion … to the death.

    iolo
    Member

    Let’s make our own. I hear fracking is a great way to get some.
    We as a country need to get away from gas if that’s not an option.
    What’s stopping us building many nuclear power stations and heating the country with electricity.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    all it takes is one word and the EU has no gas.

    Yeah but its not really like that is it ? First of all Russia has never stopped gas supplies with the EU, the only time supplies were interrupted was when Russia was in dispute with Ukraine over unpaid gas bills and Ukraine diverted gas intended for Western Europe because the pipeline happens to ran through their territory.

    Secondly iirc 70% of Western Europe’s gas doesn’t come from Russia. And finally no gas in the UK comes from Russia. So not too much to worry about.

    Although looking for an alternative source of energy for Western Europe is probably a good idea as the Russians are starting to look at selling more gas to the Chinese.

    jock-muttley
    Member

    As a former member of HM Armed Forces in the 1980s about this situation. We were always taught ” don’t trust the f’kin Russians”

    Been there, done that, got the t shirt

    I was one of the ones whose life expectancy was under 2 mins had the 3rd soviet shock army come steam roller ing across the inter German border…

    As everyone under 30 goes “you what???”

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Secondly iirc 70% of Western Europe’s gas doesn’t come from Russia. And finally no gas in the UK comes from Russia. So not too much to worry about.

    Unless you remove 30% of the gas, prices spike, reserves run empty something gets turned off and any nice cross border energy sharing stops.
    It is back to brinksmanship diplomacy really with the EU talking big, Russia has to come back with something short of a real nuclear option.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    ernie_lynch – Member

    Secondly iirc 70% of Western Europe’s gas doesn’t come from Russia. And finally no gas in the UK comes from Russia. So not too much to worry about.

    Taking 30% of the existing gas off the market will affect us even if we don’t buy any of it. Though I agree with the basic point.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but this supposed gas debt- is this not the “debt” created when Russian annexed Crimea therefore cancelling the lease of the Sevastopol base? They were applying a discount based on leasing the base til 2017, and are now claiming that the deal is invalidated and that the discount for 2010 onwards needs to be repaid as the lease period wasn’t completed…

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Putin in remember where your gas comes from comments
    So due to some unpaid bills we might have to turn your gas off, just so you remember without our gas your ******’d. Nothing like a polite keep your nose out of our affairs really.

    So would this be a good time to be considering an energy policy that doesn’t rely on oil/gas and other things that have to be imported?

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    Yes I was probably exaggerating the point which was that firstly Russia isn’t going to turn off the gas supply to Western Europe (it’s a highly lucrative business venture for them which is in their interest continues to run smoothly) And that secondly we, certainly we in the UK, aren’t quite as dependent on Russian gas as is sometimes suggested.

    But of course in the extremely unlikely event Western Europe not receiving to gas from Russia, for whatever reason, it would have a serious effect including a knock on effect on the UK.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/727287
    Full text of the letter here, if no deal is made Russia will stop selling/giving gas to the Ukraine, the subtext being that they have no way to stop the Ukraine taking gas from the cross border pipelines to use itself and stopping it reaching the EU? So how would you stop them doing that? Well you could stop gas flowing through the pipeline at all. They are also very keen to point out that in effect they own the Ukraine and have been helping it along like a little brother who left home but forgot to get a job, while blaming the EU for offering all the nice things about dealing with the West.

    It’s a careful explanation for the EU that they are not welcome in the east, and that sanctions not to buy things etc. are one thing but the real power comes when you refuse to sell stuff.

    So who wants to be in the first zero carbon economy before this becomes the way every dispute is settled.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    ernie_lynch – Member

    And that secondly we, certainly we in the UK, aren’t quite as dependent on Russian gas as is sometimes suggested.

    Yeah, why is that? It’s an unsinkable rubber duck, I can see why some people want us to believe it but it seems to go wider than that. I’m not a conspiracy theorist but when something that isn’t remotely true gets so widely accepted I tend to assume there’s some serious forces behind that…

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Some info from http://www.carbonbrief.org/blog/2013/04/decc-energy-statistics,-march-2013


    Majority of our gas imports are from Norway, any change to the EU gas availability would impact on price and availability.
    With a little more digging coal seems to be more of a problem


    Russia doesn’t need to sell coal to Europe or the EU, they have a coal hungry friend in the East who will probably buy whatever comes available.

    I can’t find current gas market data but as soon as supply is reduced then the knock on effect will begin.

    Premier Icon benji
    Subscriber

    What’s stopping us building many nuclear power stations and heating the country with electricity.

    The same thing that’s holding back most developments in this country, NIMBY’s they want the product but don’t want to be near the production.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    Also, it’d cost an outrageous amount of money, and we probably don’t have the engineering resources to build 40-50 new reactors. Even if they were free, and you can start them all tomorrow and build them all in parallel, they’d still take 5-10 years to build depending on what sort you want.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Yep the problem for nuclear is that we spent the last 20years ignoring energy issues and didn’t do anything about it until it was too late. Nothing to say we shouldn’t kick on and start the plans are there and the 2 reactor designs are there. As for timescales the UK should probably prepare for energy price rises that will be painful and shortages. That would be the price for saying no to everything and putting all the eggs in the burning a finite resource basket.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    Yup. But with the best will in the world, it’s not a solution for this problem, the timescales make it so. And besides, we’re having enough trouble getting Hinckley off the ground and it doesn’t even replace the capacity we’ll lose in the time it takes to get it up and running

    (unless the old plants are life-extended again of course)

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Yep, there is no actual solution to this problem other than to cosy back up with those selling oil, gas & coal. Energy is one of those few things that should be generated and coordinated nationally. It also needs policies that are decades in duration not an election.

    jock-muttley
    Member

    Ok so where did we agree that gas prices were worth more than democracy and human rights … Yeah about the same time we stood up to a fascist ****t in Germany in ’39

    Wake up… The Crimea is not self determination it is ANCHLOSS writ feking large if you are too young or a victim of our blameless society to understand that term … It’s the bit in the film before GERMANY and RUSSIA invade Poland oh and 32 million people lost their lives…

    .. So how many therms of gas is a human life worth … This is NOT economics it is ideology

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