At no point have i suggested advanced drivers be given special speed dispensations (although, in reality, that is exactly what is done for certain sectors (Emergency services etc)

And in the case of the police those dispensations have become extremely limited because despite all their extra training their **** up rate was far too high. The law applies to the police and if they break it for a reason that won’t satisfy a court or disciplianry commission they’re in trouble if anything goes wrong. There are several cops on here, I’m sure they can do this better than I can with second-hand information.

The problem is now that scrotes have learned that the police are reluctant to chase if the risk is to high. It’s perhaps time to tip the balance slightly more in favour of the police, but that’s just a personal view. Drones are the future.

Whichever one maxtorque did his training with.

Then you should educate yourself.
Ask the wife. 🙂

Cougar – Moderator
Because otherwise, why wouldn’t you drive to the speed limit and conditions?

Because it’s not compulsory hence the word limit not limit and minimum. Often I’m not in a hurry and find driving at 60/65 on the motorway results in less interaction with other motorists and reduced tailgating from daring to enter the outside lane at 70. It’s also eco and pocket friendly compared to 70+ although I will do 70 if conditions are ok and the traffic flow dictates.
I tend to do 60 on A roads etc where 60 is the limit for the same reasons. Negates the need to spot a camera van too.
Bring on GPS speed limited vehicles and longer bans for those who intentionally flout the law thinking they know better. Every speeding driver thinks they it’s ok until it isn’t.

I knew I’d regret that final sentence.

Far as I can see, you’ve just said that you drive exactly as I’ve just described. You drive at the speed limit (unless the A road bit was a typo) but sometimes drive more slowly to match the flow of traffic – ie, you’re driving to the conditions.

The eco argument is a good one though, on motorways at least. I hadn’t considered that.

Whichever one maxtorque did his training with.
Then you should educate yourself.
Ask the wife.

My wife has been laughing at some of the shit typed on here 😀 advanced driver this, advanced driver blah blah blah. She actually thinks some of the things she was taught are pretty stupid. That and she’s not one for ego so doesn’t harp on like a seventh day eventist. She also thinks that been qualified means you can drive at higher speeds is ridiculous, especially given the fact that other people use the roads. She did the training and chose her career after what happened to my brother.

Bring on GPS speed limited vehicles and longer bans for those who intentionally flout the law thinking they know better. Every speeding driver thinks they it’s ok until it isn’t.

I completely agree with this.

Every speeding driver thinks they it’s ok until it isn’t.

Nail absolutely hit on the head.

These haters of people who don’t drive up to the limit are going to hate electric cars. On long trips it’s pointless doing 130kmh on the autoroute as the time you save by driving fast is lost in extra time charging, so I trundle along at the same speed as the trucks on long journeys. Not that this behaviour causes anyone any trouble, but this thread makes clear that some STWers hate people not driving up to the limit and feel abliged to insult their driving ability.

Try driving a white van on a national speed limit road at the limt (say 53mph indicated) and see how many of the overtakers shake fists, raise fingers, or blare the horn, it’s edukational (Kidderminster area was particularly bad). I admit the French plates may have been an agravating factor.

I kind of alluded to it earlier when I mentioned tucking in behind trucks* and “hypermiling” – it’s why I don’t always drive at 70 on motorways, though admittedly I’m more interested in saving money than saving the planet it’s nice to do both (it makes up for the times I do 80 😳 )

* since the critics are out in force on this thread I should point out I don’t drive dangerously close behind trucks, but you still get a benefit sitting behind at a safe distance

funkmasterp She actually thinks some of the things she was taught are pretty stupid.

And she’s right (ish). However, i challenge her to come up with some thing taught for advanced driving that is WORSE (high risk of an accident) than the equivalent at the basic minimum standard (UK driving licence) level?

Could i also just clarify my standing on speed limits, before everyone assumes i am all for removing them completely:

1) 20 mph limits: against blanket 20mph limits. They are just ignored because they are not linked to direct, visible hazards, so the average motorist creeps back up towards 30 (most studies show around 28mph). Local, short, 20 mph limits (outside schools, at specific high risk areas etc) i am all for. (link speed limit to visible hazards)

2) 30mph: Actually i think this one is about right. 30mph feels fast enough to not feel too slow to the average driver, and generally means that any braking before an impact results in a fairly minor (most times) out come. The issue is that this limit is now widely ignored by a large number of drivers (not necessarily by gross margins, say 35 or 36 mph) but enough to lead to a significantly higher risk of injury in the case of a collision, especially to vunerable users (pedestrians, cyclists etc)

3) 40 mph. Historically a good, sensible limit for roads that were slightly less risky than 30mph ones, but the 40mph is now abused imo, and applied willy nilly, often as a knee jerk reaction by councils, and often where there are no visible signs of a higher risk at all (so the average motorist now pretty much ignores it completely. For example, 40mph on a dual carriage way section of road, with crash barriers on each side, as often found on bypasses around towns etc, feels ludicrously slow in a modern car most of the time. The limit doesn’t need changing, but the application of it does imo.

4) 50mph – pretty much see 40mph! (there are a few specific cases where a very local, well signed 50mph limit is sensible, but the valid cases are in the minority, especially as a lot of national speed limit single carriageways have now been re-rated to long, pointless 50mph sections (again, generally ignored by a large majority of drivers in modern cars)

5) 60mph – The setting of this is sensible imo. A good speed for well sighted single carriageways, that feels fast enough to most people

6) 70 mph – This one needs changing imo. It’s been acknowledged that the “official un-offical” motorway limit is now 85mph. You can drive that fast in the EU (in the dry) and by keeping the signs reading “70” and yet allowing >80mph, the average driver gets a “speeding is ok” mental re-enforcement that goes against all the “speed kills” propaganda. I’d suggest the limit is raised to 85mph (dry) and left at 70mph (wet) to bring us in line with the EU.

For the average motorist, who generally doesn’t have the necessary skills to be able to objectively set their own speed (through no fault of their own) it’s confusing and frankly absurd, that we are effectively allowed to break one limit without penalty, but not another one.

btw, in the UK for 2016

UK GOV Figures for 2016
46% of cars exceeded the speed limit on motorways
8% of cars exceeded the speed limit on national single carriageways
53% of cars exceeded the speed limit on 30mph roads
81% of cars exceeded the speed limit on 20mph roads

May I also pose the question: Can the entire population be “criminal”? ie. if everyone breaks the law, is it the law that is wrong? (the law is meant to reflect the will of the people after all……)

The only problem with being an ADVANCED DRIVER is the badge of entitlement.

My Nana was an advanced driver 30 years ago. She even had the gloves to prove it.

The link up there that aracer reposted from the west midlands police is spot on, well worth a read

Surprisingly I not only agree with most of that, a lot of it is exactly what I think about the limits. IMHO the motorway limit being set so far below what feels reasonable and safe to most drivers tends to lead to them not only ignoring that limit, but getting used to the idea that it’s OK to ignore speed limits in general and also ignoring 30 limits etc. Though personally I reckon raising it to 80 and then enforcing at that limit would be fine. I’d also be happy with less tolerance on speeding in 30 limits rather than the current “10% + 2” assumption which makes people think 34 is fine.

1) 20 mph limits: against blanket 20mph limits. They are just ignored because they are not linked to direct, visible hazards, so the average motorist creeps back up towards 30 (most studies show around 28mph). Local, short, 20 mph limits (outside schools, at specific high risk areas etc) i am all for. (link speed limit to visible hazards)

I was thinking from the start of that I was going to disagree, however I might even go further and suggest more time limited 20 zones outside schools rather than 24/7 ones.

The only rider I’d put on that is that if there was better enforcement so that drivers stuck to the limit (maybe we’ll get that in future with black boxes and driverless cars) there would be bigger picture advantages to widescale use of 20 limits. Because it could potentially make the roads much friendlier to cyclists if it was possible to ride one at close to the same speed as cars (there would also be a good argument for raising the e-bike limit to 20mph) – not only that, but even the dimmest driver might realise that it’s not quicker to drive than to cycle.

That link is definitely worth a read

Try driving a white van on a national speed limit road at the limt (say 53mph indicated) and see how many of the overtakers shake fists, raise fingers, or blare the horn

I do this all day, every day.
65,000 miles a year.
And I can honestly say none of that has ever happened to me.
(My van isn’t white though)

Must have been something else you were doing that caused all the issues you seem to be having.

this thread makes clear that some STWers hate people not driving up to the limit and feel abliged to insult their driving ability.

On the motorway it’s a different situation, you can tuck in with the lorries and inconvenience no-one if you like. Or pull out to overtake and pull back in again. Ditto a van / tractor / cyclist / horse / whatever on regular roads. But if you’re dribbling along at 40 in a 60 in perfect conditions when you’re easily capable of driving at the legal limit inconveniences other road users and thus contravenes THC, and I’m pretty certain that the reason most drivers do this is because they have no clue what the NSL is which is potentially even more worrying.

“hypermiling”

I’m not familiar with this term, I assume it’s akin to slipstreaming / drafting?

Ok but remember that speed isn’t just about safety. Slower traffic through some hamlet in the countryside might make it much quieter for the residents. Likewise 50mph or 40 limits on suburban dual carriageways. Also there’s more pollution in some spots especially if some folk are gunning it up to 70 instead of 50.

I’d suggest the limit is raised to 85mph (dry)

I accept this argument, and tbh I will be accelerating to 82mph (130kph, I’m a remainer!) once I get past Preston on my way up to Glasgow in a few weeks’ time. But what’s probably more important is traffic density. I will slow down to 70 if more than a few cars show up. So in theory you could drop the limit when it gets busier, like the smart motorways do, but that’d be really rather difficult to implement country-wide.

If there are enough smart sections on suburban or busy sections, you could raise the default to 80mph and then drop it in busy sections or for generally unsuitable bits. So for example the M4 around Newport should be max 70, and probably the M6 north of Brum because that’s pretty windy and hilly. This is kind of similar to Germany where they do limit it in many places (though not enough) and also in the US there is no default speed limit like we have. It can be anything even on Interstates. The problem then though is that people have to notice the signs.

And she’s right (ish). However, i challenge her to come up with some thing taught for advanced driving that is WORSE (high risk of an accident) than the equivalent at the basic minimum standard (UK driving licence) level?

She doesn’t believe either she or you are right, just that you have different opinions. She thinks the standard test isn’t tough enough. I’ll ask her about any elements she thinks are worse.

UK GOV Figures for 2016
46% of cars exceeded the speed limit on motorways
8% of cars exceeded the speed limit on national single carriageways
53% of cars exceeded the speed limit on 30mph roads
81% of cars exceeded the speed limit on 20mph roads

Motorways, not surprised. I too would like to see the limit raised to 80 – as that’s what many people drive at, we’re back to 85th percentile again – and have it rigorously enforced.

Single carriageways, again, unsurprised. Largely because of what I just said, the vast majority of drivers don’t have a scooby what the actual limit is.

30mph roads, that’s frankly a clucking disgrace.

20mph roads, both disgraceful and unsurprising. Drivers see it as unnecessarily slow and there’s little or no enforcement (the ACPO has said that they don’t have the resources to do so). We’d do better to put 20 limits in high-risk areas like in front of schools, rather than dotted all over the place because some NIMBY has confused “road” with “playground” and complained to the local council. It’s the ‘crying wolf’ thing.

If the average motorist’s mentality was “oh shit, a 20 zone, this must be serious” rather than being conditioned to “20mph, bollocks to that” then they would be far more effective. Even 20mph past a school at chucking out time is far too fast IMHO, I’d like to see “10mph when lights are flashing, 30mph at other times” scheduled limits next to schools.

tbh I will be accelerating to 82mph

Wait, what? After all the driving threads we’ve had where you’ve banged on ad tedium about the import of numbers on poles, did I really just see you admit to planning to intentionally exceed the speed limit? 😯

You’ll be reet anyway, an indicated 82 is probably an actual speed of about 75.

Well it covers a whole load of stuff, mainly avoiding using the brakes as much as possible – which is how I tend to drive a lot of the time (it always amuses me having somebody up my chuff as I’m doing 40 at the top of a hill in a 50 limit on one of my standard trips and watching them disappear behind when I coast down the hill without touching my brakes – 40 being the fastest I can be going at the top in order to manage that, and before the standard complaints I only have to lift off briefly from 50 in order to manage that as there’s a slight uphill before the down). In this specific case, yes slipstreaming behind lorries, though as I alluded some people abuse it and sit dangerously close to get the best draft which isn’t really a good idea.

I’m interested to see how much general agreement there is with max’s speed limit post.

BTW, as Minister for Transport (lol) i’d also put the following into legislation:

1) If convicted of causing death or life changing injury by dangerous driving, get handed a LIFE TIME ban.

2) Double (at least) the fines and Bans for driving without due care and attention

3) If involved in an accident that requires the emergency services to attend and found “at fault”, you get automatically fined a percentage of their costs.

4) Introduce a minimum number of mandatory driver training hours, and ban the “fast track” courses (that teach you to operate a car, but not to drive, and leave drivers with mere days (or even just hours) of actually driving before giving them a licence. In conjunction, limit the number of test attempts to 4. (seriously, if you can’t pass the (incredibly basic) mandatory driving test in 4 attempts then i’m sorry, but driving just isn’t for you.

5) (most controversial) remove all speeding cameras and spend the money on real traffic officers instead, who can do a lot more than simple ascertain how fast someone was travelling at a given time…..

20 mph limits: against blanket 20mph limits. They are just ignored because they are not linked to direct, visible hazards

They are in Germany, a local one here is pretty well repsected too as it’s past a school but others less so.

4) 50mph

That’s exactly what the new French national limit is because it’s save lives in Switzerland.

5) 60mph

too fast according to the Swiss and now French

6) 70 mph

Given th ediensity of traffic on British motorways I don’t see why you want a higher limit than say the Germans have on their equally crowded portions. On the least crowded portions then maybe 80, reduced to 65 in the wet (which is much of the time in the UK) and 50 in poor visibility.

For the average motorist, who generally doesn’t have the necessary skills to be able to objectively set their own speed

You keep harping on about skills when they make **** all difference on busy roads. Look at the number of race and rally drivers who kill themselves on the road, the number of police driver who used to kill themselves before they were calmed down, the number of people in your motorsport world who thought they were driving Gods who’ve **** up big time.

One of my motor enthusiast contemporaries killed an old man on a pedestrian crossing, his “skills” didn’t help a jot. But I’m certain my ageing mother would have stopped or avoided the guy simply because she is more cautious and wouldn’t have thought that super-trained observation skills and braking skills meant that roughly the speed limit was slow enough.

What are your “skills” that Madame doesn’t have, Maxtoroque? In other words beyond:

Driving for best visibility, that may mean more than a two second gap, Madame is often at several seconds, it’s more relaxing and leaves a big gap for speeding overtakers to drop into.

Driving according to conditions with the limit as a maximum.

Being courteous to other road users and going out of your way to protect vulnerable road users.

Anticipating the stupidity of others. I find watching the on-coming traffic accross Les Landes anticipating the crazy overtakers tiring, but worth it.

Driving smoothly and predictably one’s self, indicators, positionning so everyone knows where you’re going.

Put the phone in the boot. the level of skill required to do this is staggeringly low.

They aren’t skills, they’re good habits, routines, anyone can do them however unskilled. That’s the thing about driving, it’s so unskilled everyone is allowed to do it unless they have a really serious handicap – and rightly so, you don’t need the precision of an eye surgeon, the reactions goal keeper, the reflexes of a guitarist, it’s easy. Just be careful, cautious, courteous, obsevant, anticipate and drive a speed at which you are fully in control within the prescribed limits and you’ll be no danger to yourself or anyone else

^^ completely agree with this. At last, we agree! 😀

Edit – with maxtorques last post. Edukator, I pretty much agree with all your posts on this thread.

Where do you plan to station your 1 traffic officer for best effect?

The new French radar cars aren’t driven by police or gendarmes. Private companies are paid to drive the vehicles along prescribed routes at prescribed times and anyone speeding in either direction is nicked; Genius!

It means nowhere is “safe” from radars and roads with high accident rates can be targetted. Bikers who like thrashing French mountain roads be warned, they are being targetted next Summer, overtake the wrong car and you’re nicked.

That’s what I said earlier: too many cameras and not enough police.

I have to say I agree with Maxtorque on the speed limits too, and can I also thank him for what has come across as a well reasoned argument based on facts and substantial, actual real world experience of the topic under discussion.

actual real world experience of the topic under discussion.

Just like everyone on the thread.

Agreed on MT assesment, well the general gist.
I have had some ‘fast road’ training, by a traffic policeman and a Fire Brigrade driving trainer. TBH , unless you are obliged to drive very fast for whatever reason within your work ( ambo – fire – police – docs ) then it has no place on our overcrowded roads.
Simply too dangerous. Too many muppets . too many other road users.

Speed limits have to stay as they are, and as there cannot be an allowance for tiredness, state of mind , light levels, ‘percieved driving ability’ weather, vehicle condition etc etc.- They need to set and policed to a specified level where the result of an accident has the best possible outcome.

Simply stating you would rather have an alert driver on quality german tyres who can steer through an abs braking scenario driving at 40mph , is safer than Maxine doing 30mph whilst checking out Ebay is true. But all that will happen is Maxine will be checking Ebay at 40mph if you raise the limit, as she is too thick to realise it is not safe.

Checking Ebay: that would definitely be a Maxime and he is a member of this forum.

Cougar – Moderator
Please do explain why this terrifies you, as I don’t understand.
My uncle was a “cautious, humble, considerate, careful, concentrated and slow” driver. He’d cautiously and slowly pull straight out of a side road into 40mph traffic. I wouldn’t have trusted him to drive me to next door safely. I could cite a few other people I know who drive similarly too.

Now before the professionally offended wade in I’m not saying that this is true of Edukator’s wife or indeed of everyone who drives slowly. But my experience of people who drive in this manner do so because they lack the confidence and / or ability to drive at the same speed as everyone else.

Cougar, whilst I’m sure you did not intend to slight Edukator’s wife, you did say his description of her driving terrified you. I must have pictured something quite different, someone driving in a calm sensible manner, with regard to other road users. Someone who made Edukator feel so safe and relaxed he fell asleep (not that she was so slow he fell asleep, as suggested by someone else).

I’m not sure why I have homed in on your commments, out of so many – a lot of them incredible.
However, I disagree with you about the 20mph limits too. Large parts of Edinburgh now have a 20 mph limit and whilst it is seldom adhered to, traffic speeds (appear to) have reduced. This makes the roads far safer for more vulnerable road users and less noisy for pedestrians and those that live in the streets. One day the children may even return to playing outside! Also, I’d be very surprised if 20mph zones increase travel times.

Large parts of Edinburgh now have a 20 mph limit and whilst it is seldom adhered to, traffic speeds (appear to) have reduced

I’d be very surprised if 20mph zones increase travel times.

Slight contradiction there. It is slower round parts of the city and there’s usually an aggressive 4×4 or van up your back when you stick to it. And driving slower = lower gear so not sure if that will impact emissions. Undoubtedly better for bikes though.

I’d just like to see more of Maxtorque’s point 5 enforced. I’m not worried about those speeding on any of the routes I take over Scotland. But dangerous lane changes, tailgating all need a bit of action. Rear ended twice and seen a few more similar shunts.

Meanwhile a lass on BBC news website gets a paltry 7months in jail for causing death by careless driving because they couldn’t prove her phone use caused the fatal collision – so far off the penalties required ffs

Large parts of Edinburgh now have a 20 mph limit and whilst it is seldom adhered to, traffic speeds (appear to) have reduced

I’d be very surprised if 20mph zones increase travel times.

Slight contradiction there

Yes, not clear at all what I meant, sorry. I guess, since the new 20 zones were introduced, instead of driving at 35 mph, people are driving at 25mph (I’d sooner it was <20). Now, a lot of the time, on most of these roads people cannot average 20 mph, but they accelerate up to the speed limit or beyond to then sit at 10 mph behind the car in front.

Not much clearer now unfortunately. Also I think maybe I’m focussing more on city streets than others.

Cougar, whilst I’m sure you did not intend to slight Edukator’s wife, you did say his description of her driving terrified you. I must have pictured something quite different, someone driving in a calm sensible manner, with regard to other road users.

Based purely on experience of the people I know, it was the description of a timid, nervous driver who could benefit from further tuition to improve her confidence. This may not hold true in her case, I’ve no idea.

I’ll give you another example of someone else I know who fits all the same criteria Edukator listed. It’s a friend’s mum. She never turns right, ever. Wherever she’s going, she’ll plot a convoluted route in painful detail where every right turn is replaced by three lefts instead.

I’m not sure why I have homed in on your commments, out of so many – a lot of them incredible.

Eh, I get that a lot.

However, I disagree with you about the 20mph limits too. Large parts of Edinburgh now have a 20 mph limit and whilst it is seldom adhered to

You’ve just agreed with me.

she never turns right, ever. Wherever she’s going, she’ll plot a convoluted route in painful detail where every right turn is replaced by three lefts instead.

US based example so flip left/right but it’s actually not a terrible idea

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/why-ups-drivers-don-t-turn-left-and-you-probably-shouldn-t-either-a7541241.html

Blanket 20mph in city – stupid, agree with that. Doesnt work in Glasgow especially on the big roads.

Blanket 20mph in tight residential streets? Not a kick in the arse off the 30kph limits elsewhere in the EU (Eire and Spain at any rate) and didn’t feel unreasonably slow. Probably too fast around here given the parking derived chicanes but still better than 30.

Pootling along with lorries on the motorway or a dual carriageway, as said, is fine as you are inconveniencing nobody. I do it when towing and with cruise control and proper anticipation for any overtakes makes for an easy journey. Equally when you have a line of cars playing conga with an HGV at 40mph because the first few are too scared to overtake and so nobody can (safely) it’s frustrating and why a bad driver would go for that overtake at a stupid moment.

Oh, Max, you forgot arbitrary 50/60 limits on motorways. See Glasgow with the M77 from Pollokshields, M80 to Stepps ( after the bridge its a straight road) and pretty much the whole of the M8 barring the city centre from the Royal to Govan. Lots of lower limits on open sections with no reason not to have them full speed given everyone seems to do 70 anyway.

Average speed cameras such as those on the A9 from Perth up seem to do a good job of calming people’s driving down , perhaps that will ultimately become widespread on motorways .

Equally when you have a line of cars playing conga with an HGV at 40mph because the first few are too scared to overtake and so nobody can (safely) it’s frustrating

Oh, no, they’re all waiting their turn.

funkmasterp – Member

My wife has been laughing at some of the shit typed on here advanced driver this, advanced driver blah blah blah. She actually thinks some of the things she was taught are pretty stupid. That and she’s not one for ego

Not one for ego, but knows better than what she’s taught? 😉
(I would genuinely be interested in hearing what she disagrees with, there are certainly one or two methods taught that I am also not in agreement with)

Ramsey Neil – Member

Average speed cameras such as those on the A9 from Perth up seem to do a good job of calming people’s driving down

Haven’t driven the A9 in quite a while, but it was a shit road. Changing from single to two lane and then back again in a short space. Frustrated drivers rushing to get passed slower HGVs in the short two lane sections.
I remember a camper van load of Italians losing their lives getting T-boned as they tried to cross the carriageway.
They weren’t speeding.