Aracer

The first time I was caught I came over the brow of the hill, clocked the van as soon as it came into sight (it was in a layby quite some distance away, I could certainly have stopped in a fraction of that distance) and put the anchors on. The speed on the notice was 85mph, which was the speed I’d been doing. There’s no way the van had me in sight for several seconds – it was capturing the speed as cars came into sight. TBH some of your comments on the tech are pretty spurious – it doesn’t take several seconds to average multiple readings.

Playing Devils advocate for a moment:

You came over the blind brow of hill, where you couldn’t see the approaching road to the point where it completely “hid” an entire large, brightly colored van, whilst doing well in excess of the speed limit (if they nabbed you for a true 85, your speedo will have been indicating significantly >85), with no prior idea as to what was on the other side (other than it was clear yesterday…..)?

In which case you deserve everything you got 😉

I’m thinking this is another one which falls into “all scenarios are the same as the ones I have experience of”.

I was kinda wondering this. Technology moves on, it’s a while since I last read up on it and I don’t know specifics about modern speed trap safety camera vans but it’s plausible that it’s different now from when MT had his experience. Could be exactly the same too, of course.

Radar specs, there are hand-held and fixed on the website too for anyone interested.

http://www.decatureurope.com/uploads/Brochures/Genesis%20II%20Select_E_W.pdf

The sampling rate is 100 speed samples per second.

Around here some traffic lights have cameras so that is regularly monitored. The gendarmes fly drones too, notably over the N10 to catch tail-gating trucks and dangerous behaviour of any kind. Road blocks with drug/alcohol tests are used. The local police often hang out around “STOP” signs and fine people who don’t. Sometimes they hang out on a roundabouts and fine people for refusing priority, using the phone, eating/smoking. Madame got a warning for having her feet up on the dash as a passenger.

Speed is far from the only thing policed.

Experience + Proven Skill = Safe Driving

No. You have t be applying that skill at any given moment. Just because you can pass an advanced test does NOT mean you will be driving safely an attentively all the time.

My point is that if you allow qualified advanced drivers to drive faster (which seems to be what you are suggesting) then they still make mistakes and will still be carrying the more energy when they crash.

I’ve been told that in Germany on the Autobahn there aren’t more accidents than in other countries, but when they happen they are much worse. I can’t back that up though.

😆 – well your powers of observation are such that you didn’t notice I anticipated such a criticism! I’ll let you go back and find it – I thought it was fairly obvious.

Though the speedo over-reading is yet another “all things are like my experience”. As with all cars I own, I’d calibrated the speedo in that car, and it barely over-read at all – clearly the case because it was only indicating 85 or 86. Sure that’s significantly in excess of the limit, but it seems interesting for you to criticise me for only doing 85…

Quite. Though I’m surprised it’s that low – I have no specific experience of police speed measuring equipment, but I’ve worked with radar on military stuff with sampling rates much higher than that – typical kit I’ve worked with was providing averaged readings thousands of times a second.

You find I posted a link with the autobahn stats a few apges back, Molgrips. The unlimited sections have a much higher accident rate than teh limited sections. Given that it is the low risk sections that have been left unlimited the stats are damning. Higher speed equals more accidents and deaths on low risk sections than on lmited section with more hazards and often higher traffic density.

There’s debate on the subject in Germany and the motor industry has “voluntarily” limited cars to 250kmh to appease the politicians. I can’t see it lasting though and will personally welcome not having idiots flying past trucks with a 150kmh speed difference. It’s madness. I hitch-hiked with a couple along an unlimited section late one Summer in an old Merc (to keep the anecdote haters happy I’ll add that they had Ry Cooder’s Get Rythme in the cassette player), it was late Summer with showers. Three cars overtook audilby flat out, 911 etc.. The driver quipped “see you soon” and explained there was a curve left before long and we’d probaly see them there, we did, including a rapidly depreciated 911.

It’s madness.

It is.

The first time I was caught I came over the brow of the hill … TBH some of your comments on the tech are pretty spurious – it doesn’t take several seconds to average multiple readings.

My experience tells me that that’s a typical spot for mobile speed cameras to sit. Now your experience tells you the same (hopefully). There are other “typical spots” but i’ll leave you to discover them for yourself 😀

Regarding the several seconds thing – depends on the equipment used. Radar cameras need at few seconds to get a reading that’ll stand up in court. Laser cameras take less than a second – not sure which one is used in the back of vans

As with all cars I own, I’d calibrated the speedo in that car

I’m sure it isn’t, but you know when you read something and it just instantly comes across as colossal bollocks?

I’m sure it does – probably should have used quotes as it clearly wasn’t formally calibrated, but I knew how much it over-read (nowadays it’s easy to do with GPS, but even without you can use motorway markers to calibrate the odo and then use that combined with a stopwatch when travelling at a constant speed to calibrate the speedo). It’s interesting to have the information, and at least with the cars I’ve owned the speedo hasn’t ever read as much over as popular opinion seems to suggest.

That’s what I thought, and likewise most of my cars haven’t over-read by much.

but even without you can use motorway markers to calibrate the odo and then use that combined with a stopwatch when travelling at a constant speed to calibrate the speedo

as a passenger, obviously… 😉

Self entitled people will speed and tell you at length why they think they are ok to do so. Of course should you choose to ignore the speed limit resulting in any detrimental impact on them I’m confident they’ll support your right too.

Madame got a warning for having her feet up on the dash as a passenger.

Why, out of interest? Safety issue in the event of an accident / passenger airbag?

Why, out of interest?

My money’s on no panties

Safety issue in the event of an accident

yup, though there wasn’t a passenger air bag and she was wearing a seat belt. The gendarme was right, we grovelled.

The “advanced driver” tag irritates, I’d rather be in the passenger seat with Madame driving than any advanced driver……

….. I can relax and fall asleep in the passenger seat. It’s like being driven by a chauffeur (I have been driven by a professional chauffeur in a big Merc so feel well placed to compare)

So, just to be clear..

You’d rather be in the passenger seat with your wife driving rather than someone with advanced driver training, and the logic behind that is….. that she drives like someone with advanced driver training. 😆

Ok, that makes sense.

So what I take from many of this opinions in this thread are:

– If anybody breaks the speed limit at any point they are a self entitled maniac with no social conscience – apparently this can even be back-dated to when a speed limit was higher on a certain road.

– Advanced driver training is useless.

– Some people label their (what I assume to be?) ‘other half’ as madame (WFT?) and they drive at a glacial pace but thats good as it helps one to sleep on a long journey.

– There are a lot of frightened drivers out there who have very little confidence / abiliy (delete where appropriate) behind the wheel but thats OK because if they are under the speed limit there is no risk to anybody else.

I am thankful that the people of the STW forum make up a very tiny percentage of the population, but then every car related thread takes a predictable tone on here in the same way that every cyclist thread does on somewhere like pistonheads.

You missed:

– it’s safe to drive at 120mph if you’re an advanced driver

amongst other similar proclamations

Cougar – Moderator

Madame’s driving is nothing special but she’s cautious, humble, considerate, careful, concentrated and slow. [Edukator]

That sounds terrifying TBQH

Please do explain why this terrifies you, as I don’t understand. I do not drive, but as a pedestrian, cyclist and occasional passenger, I would far rather share the road with someone who drives in this manner, than someone who drives recklessly, inconsiderately, distracted and fast – they’re the people who worry me.

Some people label their (what I assume to be?) ‘other half’ as madame (WFT?)

He’s French, this is customary.

There are a lot of frightened drivers out there who have very little confidence / abiliy (delete where appropriate) behind the wheel but thats OK because if they are under the speed limit there is no risk to anybody else.

Wot?

does anyone in modland keeps stats on this stuff – have we passed the post count of the legendary surfmat / brake-test epics of the late noughties ?

There are a lot of frightened drivers out there who have very little confidence / abiliy (delete where appropriate) behind the wheel but thats OK because if they are under the speed limit there is no risk to anybody else.

There are some who equate careful and considerate with frightened or lack of confidence. There are those that are arrogant and entitled when it comes to their cars.

This is pure STW gold. Thanks folks!

Note on speed “guns”:

Sampling rate is NOT the rate at which it calculates and returns the “true speed” for the target vehicle. Sampling rate is the maximum rate at which it can Transmit and Receive the Radar or Lidar onto the target. Various complex maths and science mean that to get a legal “true” speed (one that will stand up in court) that basic sample rate must be low pass filtered and gated to get a robust average true speed over the measurement period, and that period, is, typically around 1 to 2 sec.

For those geeks who want to know more, Radar and Lidar use coherent narrow band emissions, and monitors the back scatter from the transmitted wave for doppler shift (phase information). From that, the system can calculate the likely velocity of the object it is targeted at.
However, the real world is not a laboratory, effects such as angular alignment, phase interference, and the fact that as the range to target increases the effective width of the “Beam” grows, meaning local dynamic effects (such as the beam moving quickly between say the front bumper and the windscreen, a distance of about 1m) must be catered for.

To avoid a single erroneous measurement causing an “Unsafe” conviction, the device averages multiple readings, and even discards outlying readings.

(In fact, if you brake very hard and very sharply when you get zapped, you can actually cause the gun to fail to take a reading at all under certain circumstances)

In addition there is a massive “how to setup and operate a speed gun” manual (and quite a bit of hands on training too) for the operators, precisely to ensure, or try to ensure, that the convictions they get are robust.

All this means, that in reality, if you see a camera van at the same moment they see you or a bit before, you have a good chance of being able to scrub off enough speed to void a ticket! (or to cause a massive pile up when the muppet tailgating you drives into your boot…..)

I enjoy driving carefully, considerately and fast.
Best of both worlds. 🙂

I think the problem with the notion of advanced driver training is that most forumites have, instead of demanding written record from Stephen Hawking just to prove that the sky is blue as usual, based their entire view on testimony from a Walter Mitty fantasist with no personal experience of further driving education.

Around here some traffic lights have cameras so that is regularly monitored. The gendarmes fly drones too, notably over the N10 to catch tail-gating trucks and dangerous behaviour of any kind. Road blocks with drug/alcohol tests are used. The local police often hang out around “STOP” signs and fine people who don’t. Sometimes they hang out on a roundabouts and fine people for refusing priority, using the phone, eating/smoking. Madame got a warning for having her feet up on the dash as a passenger.

That just sounds like an oppressive police state. Is that what people really want? Well thank **** for austerity and budget cuts if that’s where we’re heading.

Is that what people really want?

Just sounds like sensible policing of bad driving to me. If you drive alright then there’s nothing to worry about.

Note on “feet on the dash”

All car seats and occupant protection systems are designed with a (reasonably) fixed “H” point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-point

This point is designed in such a way that for a seated human, your Centre of Gravity is basically at, or close to, that point. Hence when you experience a large acceleration, the occupant restraint systems are designed to restrain your body symmetrically around this point.

So, even without passenger airbags, having your feet on the dash effectively completely negates the seat belt. You’ll basically just submarine right out from underneath it. As such, even a pretty gentle impact is likely to result in life changing injuries. Now, as far as i am aware, there is no actual law on how an occupant must be seated in the car, only that they must be wearing a seat belt. However, common sense suggest that being properly seated at all times is a sensible thing overall……..

I wish we had more sensible policing here.

I’ve been pulled over for allegedly speeding whilst driving perfectly safely, yet the two times I’ve been hit whilst stationary nothing has been done.
Everyone who causes an accident should be ticketed for DWDCA.

molgrips
You have t be applying that skill at any given moment. Just because you can pass an advanced test does NOT mean you will be driving safely an attentively all the time.

Very true. One of the reasons that advanced driving is a “system” is to make the action of applying those skills second nature, so you ARE applying them at all time. Most of the “tedious” bits of that system (like the much maligned handwheel technique) are there precisely to build, and fix, a systematic approach to driving at all levels. But of course, no one is perfect, we are all fallible, but overall, on average, less people would be killed and injured on our roads, and we’d all get around faster, smoother an with less stress by following the (really quite easy to do) basic advanced techniques.

molgrips
My point is that if you allow qualified advanced drivers to drive faster (which seems to be what you are suggesting) then they still make mistakes and will still be carrying the more energy when they crash.

At no point have i suggested advanced drivers be given special speed dispensations (although, in reality, that is exactly what is done for certain sectors (Emergency services etc). What i am suggesting is that advanced drivers are more likely to be able to drive faster at the same or lower level of risk than an untrained one.

In practice, advanced drivers do break speed limits, maybe more than normal drivers, but they balance that by also driving a lot slower and more carefully when that is required (you generally won’t find an advanced driver doing 30 down between a row of parked cars outside your house, despite the limit being 30 for example).

Advanced drivers DO get caught speeding too, but hopefully they accept the penalty like a man, admit they messed up, and move on. You (hopefully) won’t find an advanced driver moaning they got nabbed by a scamera van that was sat just over a blind brow when they were doing 15mph over the limit for example………. 😉

For example, i got 3 points about 15 years ago by passing a fixed speed camera at 60, a camera i had fully seen, fully knew was there, and fully new that it was a 50mph limit! There were mitigating circumstances (long story) but in reality, it was me that messed up. I got it wrong, i paid the price (3 point and a small fine).

Please do explain why this terrifies you, as I don’t understand.

My uncle was a “cautious, humble, considerate, careful, concentrated and slow” driver. He’d cautiously and slowly pull straight out of a side road into 40mph traffic. I wouldn’t have trusted him to drive me to next door safely. I could cite a few other people I know who drive similarly too.

Now before the professionally offended wade in I’m not saying that this is true of Edukator’s wife or indeed of everyone who drives slowly. But my experience of people who drive in this manner do so because they lack the confidence and / or ability to drive at the same speed as everyone else.
Because otherwise, why wouldn’t you drive to the speed limit and conditions?

Advanced drivers DO get caught speeding too, but hopefully they accept the penalty like a man,

Because the very idea of a woman being an advanced driver is laughable, of course.

God forbid the police enforcing the law – clearly people should be allowed to get away with some things which don’t matter.

This was posted earlier in the thread and seems rather relevant to that:
https://trafficwmp.wordpress.com/2017/02/10/driving-an-extinction-event/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

BTW max I presume you missed my earlier comment about having done technical work with radar (though I believe the detectors currently in use in vans mostly use lasers)? I’ll resist nitpicking your post, but just point out that as mentioned before there’s a difference between a hand held speed gun and those mounted in vans – it’s more difficult with a handheld gun, but with one on a fixed mounting there’s certainly no technical reason why you can’t generate a robust reading in a fraction of a second (one which is based on averaging and filtering many hundreds of individual samples), and I’ve certainly read that they capture your speed pretty much instantaneously.

Advanced drivers DO get caught speeding too, but hopefully they accept the penalty like a man

Because the very idea of a woman being an advanced driver is laughable, of course.

Edit – Damnit!

My other half has done extensive advanced driver training and she’s pulling funny faces at some of the advanced stuff on this thread. Bizarrely she doesn’t speed either and……….she’s a woman 😯

Cougar – Moderator

Because the very idea of a woman being an advanced driver is laughable, of course.

We never should have given them the vote. 😆

Actually women are good evidence for the snails pace brigade.
Women drive at slower speeds (due to different journey types, not just like for like) yet have lots more accidents though with reduced claim costs due to the lower severity of their accidents (and the likelihood of a claim for minor prangs was also less).

Indeed – they’d probably write “but I chose to speed and got caught” rather than moaning, though they might also use it as an example of how it’s possible to get caught no matter how good your observation is. They’d probably also not describe it as a “scamera van” 😉

Nice try 😆

My other half has done extensive advanced driver training and she’s pulling funny faces at some of the advanced stuff on this thread. Bizarrely she doesn’t speed either

Why bizarre?
Which advanced body do you think condones speeding?

a scamera van

Is that a camera van run by a criminal enterprise that issues fines and then pockets the money?

Why bizarre?
Which advanced body do you think condones speeding?

Whichever one maxtorque did his training with.