You are right – i dont think bertie has admitted it either tbh

Given that why would you bother ? No matter what you do it wont convince everyone

As far as I’m concerned, Paul Kimmage is merely using cycling as a means to an end and sell articles to papers, probably with a view to working towards another book fairly soon.

This would explain the ongoing innuendo and little snippets of allegation he leaks on a regular basis. If he genuinely was in possession of damning evidence or something he could substantiate, he should be putting it together in a single dossier and present it at a press conference, given the fact that the UCI could be considered as a not entirely trusted entity.

I simply don’t trust the guy – this is all about presenting “facts” (as he sees them) on a regular basis to keep himself busy and the money coming in. It’s nothing to do with a moral crusade or anything honourable.

I simply don’t trust the guy – this is all about presenting “facts” (as he sees them) on a regular basis to keep himself busy and the money coming in. It’s nothing to do with a moral crusade or anything honourable.

+1. Kimmage is like everyone else – in it for himself.

As to how you could have a journalist (or anyone else) “embedded” within the team during the Tour…
LA did that very thing when he invited Daniel Coyle on board for a whole year. Unprecedented access to him and to the team and Coyle’s book Tour de Force seems to have been produced while showing Coyle a very different side to the team – the side that doesn’t include doping.

Coyle co-wrote Tyler Hamilton’s recent book so I don’t believe that he was in on some giant conspiracy.

So having a journalist or anyone else along for the ride is still no guarantee that a team is clean. FWIW, I think that Sky is clean, it comes more from the much much cleaner side of cycle sport that is track riding where Sky (and a lot of the riders in the team) originated.

Why do you think track is much, much cleaner?

because nothing was as dirty as road

This was quite an interesting read:
http://m.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2013/jan/05/lance-armstrong-ready-confess-doping

I don’t see why any discipline of cycling, or any team, or any other sport for that matter, warrants any free pass or assumption of innocence with regard to doping.

Any sport where there’s good money involved (and I presume big name track stars don’t turn up at sixes for free), and where the oversight doesn’t lend itself to actually catching doping, is likely to have some doping going on, whether that’s individuals or teams.

When you look at how poor the testing regime has been in cycling over the last few decades, and extrapolate that to sports like football where the money is bigger and the testing is even worse, I think it’d be crazy to assume there’s no doping. Even though it might not provide the same overwhelming advantages in football as it does in cycling, long-distance running, or power sports, it’s still going to give SOME advantage. And in football all you need to do to survive in a division, or go from 5th to 4th, or whatever, is beat the other teams at the same level as you. Stamina can be a big differentiator if all else is equal.

What the USADA case has shown is that technical measures have consistently been overwhelmed by the stuff the riders do to get around them. It took a tenacious individual in the form of Travis Tygart, using “good old fashioned police work”, to quote The Wire, to bring down an almost untouchable man.

Sadly there are very few Travis Tygarts out there.

They really haven’t slowed down and Wiggins/Froome were radared at 450W or more on the 2012 Tour. They expalained it all away with their oval rings of course which give 30W more apparently. It’s all nonsense of course just as it was when Berzin put his speed down to the enormous advantage of Shamal wheels – which turned out to be less aero than the Rovals Hinault had used a deacade before.

Even more, but in the time trails. If you read Wiggo’s book he tells how they identified and duplicated Cancellara’s secret to a high TT wattage – and Bradley trained to the TdF / Olympics date using Spartacus own cadence to build bradleys power to do so. So he ride differing cadence in TT than he did daily.

He also has the previously commented upon aero advantage. Of course it’s ALL nonsense, which is why Sky pay so much for and have a marginal gains dept.

There are parallels with the 2003 Rugby team. Woodward put so much into marginal emphasis physically and psychologically.

The England rugby setup circa 2003 is a good parallel.
Clive Woodward was a visionary given almost limitless funding, he took lessons from rugby league, American football and set new heights for fitness in the squad…awesome times.

I dont see why Brailsford can’t be doing the same with Sky’s money in the cycling setup. A huge amount of this is psychological, if an athlete believes they are the best prepared out there then they will often perform that way….even if their training methods are largely snake oil.

😯

Meh, sport as we know it is a sinking ship….just polishing brass on the Titanic….the doping you’ll see (or possibly won’t see :mrgreen:) in front page scandals in 10-20 years will blow your **** mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_doping

People will always dope and they will always be one step ahead of the testers.

In the long, loong run the unaltered human being is probably doomed to extinction. It’s conjecture but if we don’t wipe ourselves out firts….in 100 to 200 years time I’d like to predict that the full effects of transhumanism will be felt and 20th century sports will cease to have any meaning.

only Lance and his cronies were claiming these things

Are you new to the internet? Never seen a discussion about LA before?

What? So Emma O’Reily being drunken prostitute was a widely and independently held belief and not just a lie started by LA to discredit her?

Whereas Kimmage being a bit of a prick, that is just Wiggins annoyed that he is the only journalist who has seen though his cover, nobody else has ever said that!

Get real.

Cycling isn’t about psychology it’s about physiology. If you haven’t got the watts no amount of will power will help you. If anyone puts their wins down to Zen, oval chainrings, Shamal wheels, positive thinking, a training guru, a fad diet, marginal gains … assume the worst.

Why did Indurain use a heart rate monitor? To temper his will to win. He chose to ride at his physiological limit while other riders attacked and left him behind. Their will to win simply resulted in inefficient use of ressources, however, and Indurain reeled them back in when they blew up having gone into the red.

Rugby 2003 as a glowing example of dope-free sport and margianal gains? Cricket and rugby are well up there in the doped-up-to-the-eyeballs stakes as a quick Google will show you. Dick Pound gave cricket a proper bashing for it’s lack of will to do anything or even apply appropriate sanctions when players were caught. Exactly like cycling.

If anyone puts their wins down to Zen, oval chainrings, Shamal wheels, positive thinking, a training guru, a fad diet, marginal gains … assume the worst.

The problem is that no journo (nor the public) want to hear Wiggo say “There’s no secret, I’m a genetic freak, train really hard and have access to some of the best facilities for cycling in the world”. Basically all pro roadies are freaks of nature both from their innate capabilities and the decades of work they’ve put in but people would be happier to be told a story about how people win rather than just accept that the riders in front of them worked hard and had access to a team that pay crazy attention to the tiniest details.

Careful, Edukator, no one said Rugby was dope free – I specifically was comparing the “marginal gains” issue – ie when you have the budget, vision and capability to do that, you CAN exceed expectations – its been demonstrated twice with success.

This is also a humerous quote from you, considering my experience of you is that you usually research your subject;

Why did Indurain use a heart rate monitor? To temper his will to win. He chose to ride at his physiological limit while other riders attacked and left him behind. Their will to win simply resulted in inefficient use of ressources, however, and Indurain reeled them back in when they blew up having gone into the red.

That is pretty much Bradley’s strategy you wrote there – Sky knew if the could keep him bashing out an appropriate cadence / power over the stages, he’d average the time enough to win. Look at the times. The majority of his time gains was in the TT not the other stages – his advantage in the other stages was very slim – but with the advantage in the TT, all he had to do was sit with the leaders elsewhere. The fact that Cadel and Schleck had a bad tour, and Nibali burned himself a couple of times just helped. So Sky trained Brad to be up with the rest over the duration (3 years to 12 months and some GT’s in the making for an already Elite level rider) and used Brad’s current strength and replicated his biggest threats advantage to increase his power in the TT’s to win.

The also used a stronger climber than Brad (Froome) to drag him along and give him a tow up the hills.

Thats not cheating – thats have a plan and vision and learning from the competition and then executing it and teamwork correctly. You also have to remeber this is Brads third tour – not his first.

* its worth stating that if Evans, Schleck and Nibali had a better tour, and Bertie was in, I suspect we’d have seen Brad fighting over seconds in the TT’s to try for the jersey. I think the time difference is exaggerated by the issues with the competition, not necessarily by Brad suddently becoming Superhuman.

Good to know the truth 😉 Kryton. Thanks! Before that, the similarities between the descriptions of LA and others described in The Secret Race of how mountain stage attacks were reeled in and what Froome and Wiggo did just seems a little too close for comfort. Much better to have this alternative version.

When/if LA finally confesses, I wish the whole would could simple treat it with complete disinterest. The ultimate put down, but one that will never happen.

“Your cheated? Gosh, we never knew. Ok, thanks. Next story……”

Oh, and hopefully no deal such as “yes, I cheated. Is it alright if I go back to triathlon now?”

They really haven’t slowed down and Wiggins/Froome were radared at 450W or more on the 2012 Tour. They expalained it all away with their oval rings of course which give 30W more apparently

Reference for all of that everything i have seen shows the times and the wattages are getting lower

How exactly do you radar someone to be able to say what Watts they are producing?

Do you think Cadel suddenly started cheating the year he won? Got faster as he aged? Do you think he was a cheat? Everyone got slower and he stayed the same- Cadel could not beat the cheats as he was a clean rider.

If anyone puts their wins down to Zen, oval chainrings, Shamal wheels, positive thinking, a training guru, a fad diet, marginal gains … assume the worst

WHY?
I dont think anyone has said anything as simplistic as that- is it your suggestion we should assume the worst with entire UK track team as well rather than look at marginal gains, superb training and hard work?
I prefer to see some evidence here rather than gut feeling/emotive points without evidence

Some of you just want to believe they all cheat and all you have is slur and innuendo.
As this threads shows no matter what anyone does some of you will just assume they are a cheat…I think this says more about you tahn Sky or wiggo tbh

They may cheat, anyone might, but we need some actual evidence not just this crappy witchhunt with “flimsy” [ I am being kind its NONE] evidence

Good to know the truth Kryton. Thanks! Before that, the similarities between the descriptions of LA and others described in The Secret Race of how mountain stage attacks were reeled in and what Froome and Wiggo did just seems a little too close for comfort. Much better to have this alternative version.

I’m not sure if you’re being sarcy THM. All that’s avaialble from reading publically available sources. I can’t tell you with any evidence that Sky have / haven’t found a way to enhance thier performance which may be considered cheating. Its just a bunch of facts.

Aka, Bradley was worringly closer to the pack than you think hence equal to his peers most of the time, he just trained very hard over 3 years to get there in the first place, had a series of lucky breaks (ie Cadels performance or lack thereof) and used his strenght (power over short duration) and replicated / trained a powerful riders style (Cancellara, low cadence big gears)to gain an advantage.

Its not rocket science, its research and vision backed by Bradleys own capability as an elite cyclist that put him seconds on front of those that didn’t trained with similar principles.

Like I said, lets see what happens this year when his strengths have been nullified (more mountains and shorter TT’s) and the competition is back (Schlecks/Contador).

Sorry Kryton, I was being slightly sarcy! I really do hope you are correct but sadly I an very cynical about clean pro sports including cycling. Your description of how/why Wiggo won rings too many bells for me to be completely convinced but I hope that this is my loss (for being too cynical) and that you are correct – and that is true not sarcy this time.

Part of me reserves the same THM, one can only hope.

I think its cycnicism

Look at 100 m and the BEn Johnson era

iirc every sprinter in that final has tested positive since- dont see load sof stuff about how Bolt must be cheat
He even admits his training partner works harder than him and still no one says he is a cheat or the sprinters are all cheats.

With cycling some think everyone must be a cheat – I think if bertie had not tested positive and denied we would probably not be having this chat tbh and nothing will convince some [ i can see why to be fair]

We can indeed……

….and I find it genuinely sad that reading TSRs description of how LA reeled attacks in made me immediately think about and question Wiggo and Froome’s similar tactics in 2012 TDF and that is the greatest disappointment of all. The cheating has robbed me/us of the ability to take outstanding performance at face value. And for that, (insert chosen name of guilty cyclist) we thank you (back to being sarcy, sorry!)

Haven’t read whole thread, but wanted to throw this comment in:

Quote from page 1:

Sky team’s relationship with a dodgy doctor and some team member have owned up to having doped in the past. In this case Sky responded by clearing these people out. If all teams did this the sport would be a very different place with no Contador, Riis, Schlecks etc.

I disagree, for now anyway. If you know you are going to be kicked out, where is the motivation to tell the truth? This approach just perpetuates the Omerta. What is needed is truth and reconcilliation. And that’s view of Travis Tygart, chief of USADA, the guys who busted LA.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/dec/19/team-sky-zero-tolerance-usada

and nothing will convince some

Think I fit into that group now. It’s a shame, but on the bright side I have a lot more time for push bikes and running up and down hills.

Oh Christ, let’s not start on distance running. Makes cycling look good.

It was his sixth, plus four Giros and a Vuelta 🙂

Sure, he didn’t finish two tours and one was towards the back but even so 😉

I did include a link, Junkyard, click where it says “oval rings”. Names followed by numbers don’t really need translating though I’ll have to think of a better translation for “flashé” than “radared” as you don’t don’t seem to understand.

Gifted riders have often won their first Tour or come close (Anquetil, Mercx, Hinault, Lemond… ), others take years of doping and meeting the the right doctor (Riis, Zoetemelk, Armstrong…)

I did include a link, Junkyard, click where it says “oval rings”.

Sorry did not notice that was a link

Names followed by numbers don’t really need translating though I’ll have to think of a better translation for “flashé” than “radared” as you don’t don’t seem to understand.

You did a far better job that Google translate

Sky riders could rely earn 20 to 30 watts through the use of trays shaped ovoid Osymetric called the name of the French brand that sells.

for example

Is that just measures for peak climbing for short tiems rather than for the whole tour?

Was a thread – think this one which links to the Vueleta giving watts per stage and they are all around 400 watts iirc. At 6 wats per killo I get them wieghing 67 kg ish [ wiggo is 69] IIRC 6.2 has been seen as doable and Armstrong was at 6.6-6.9
Still think hill climb times have declined.

Its the ability to do it every day that is the issue[ Recovery] – tbh Wiggo seemed to ride at daily threshold tempo and never pushed it beyond this- any idea what his average was for the Tour v say his Gold TT watts?

Gifted riders have often won their first Tour or come close (Anquetil, Mercx, Hinault, Lemond… )

I believe Anquetil was partial to the odd amphetamine or two.

+ merckx was kicked out of the giro for doping

Its the ability to do it every day that is the issue[ Recovery] – tbh Wiggo seemed to ride at daily threshold tempo and never pushed it beyond this- any idea what his average was for the Tour v say his Gold TT watts?

IIRC his book quotes an average of 320w per non TT stage and 430w – 460w on the TT’s.

I may be wrong.

P.S I just averaged 186W over my 28k lunchtime ride and am pretty chuffed with myself 😆

And Anquetil was in favour of doping, refusing a test after his hour record and Hinault refused a test after a crit and Lemond … well actually Lemond managed to do everything he did without a blemish, even his fellow riders declaring him a non-doper.

Worth noting that even though Merckx admitting doping in 88 and frauding controls in 93 he has always vehemently denied the Giro positive.

[/url]m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=458000314247164&id=199098633470668&set=a.200542726659592.50788.199098633470668&refid=52&_ft_=fbid.466178073440375

Class.

]Hora’s link

I’m not sure why it’s class though.

I’m guessing bennyneenan’s reply?

Lol!

Except that Bennyneenan is making the same mistake as those who worshipped Karl Lewis but demonised Ben. Or those that idolised Lance while slagging off Virenque (who really did never test positive). Or those that saw x,y and z as the brave new face of a dope free age only to see their heros become villains.

So about a third of the team Sky mob have gone this year (including Yates eventually) but when you do a bit of Googling there is no way those that remain are any better given the periods they rode in, the teams they rode for and the people they were mates with. (I hope that in the light of events I’m allowed to mention Yates without my posts being removed now)

Lance to be interviewed on Oprah… I sense a teary confessional coming.
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/08/armstrong-set-to-appear-on-oprah-next-week-as-new-allegation-surfaces/?hp

Oprah, FFS.

He may as well get a PR agency to interview him. He really is a prize bell end.

BBC article here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20954810

Separately, the head of Usada told a US investigative programme that Armstrong offered the agency a donation of some $250,000 in 2004, reports said.

Speaking to 60 Minutes Sport, to be broadcast in the US on Wednesday, Travis Tygart said the offer was a “clear conflict of interest” and quickly rejected.

😯 Guess they figured if it worked for the UCI…