We certainly don’t want anything from the government, but would resent paying anymore tax to pay for ridiculous socialist ideologies or other follies.

By ridiculous socialist ideologies I assume you’re referring to free health service, free police force, free schooling for your children etc.

EDIT ‘free’ at point of use…

We live in a nice bit of the southeast, have two kids in childcare and various other drains on our income, so no, we don’t feel rich.

Yeah… I think of my kids purely as a ‘drain on our income’ too. I also tire of the crazy socialist crap I see going on around me every day, and resent having to pay for it. Britain today, eh? Its bordering on communism!

Good (correct) edit footflaps!!!

What this original statement seems to be implying (albeit in a very poorly chosen set of words) is that you can be spending all your disposable income and feel poor earning £60K, especially in the southeast where housing is expensive.

As a lot of people point out feeling “rich” is completely subjective since it depends on your reference point that you are measuring yourself against. Billionaire or homeless person?

The Wiki income page states the facts quite clearly. £60K as a single income puts you in the top 10% of earners and 2x£30K as a couple puts you near average income.

Would I consider someone earning £60K a year rich. No.

I can understand that £60k is seen as a very good salary/wage, however does anyone struggle to make £25k – I don’t mean through choice, but genuine situation?

Wow, Some people really do have their head stuck up their own….

How much do you think the people that work in Tesco, the high-street, cleaners, low end office workers, pretty much every cycle mechanic or shop worker if you want to get bike related, etc etc earn?? This does not mean London in isolation, lets not forget the rest of the country now 😉

Seriously… I know STW and biking in reality is very middle class but open your eyes, 25K pa is something many people will only ever dream of, some are just not capable of ever attaining this.

Wow, Some people really do have their head stuck up their own….

How much do you think the people that work in Tesco, the high-street, cleaners, low end office workers, pretty much every cycle mechanic or shop worker if you want to get bike related, etc etc earn?? This does not mean London in isolation, lets not forget the rest of the country now

Seriously… I know STW and biking in reality is very middle class but open your eyes, 25K pa is something many people will only ever dream of, some are just not capable of ever attaining this.

I know what the minimum wage is you dullard, so maybe you get your head out of your arse 😉 – it was a question aimed at the STW demographic.

I know some people have chosen jobs well below that pay grade – TJ for example. He seemed happy with what he was doing (maybe TJ & ‘happy’ is an oxymoron though) so good for him.

On a forum populated by ‘mostly’ seemingly intelligent people, with a pretty expensive hobby – and if the stereotypes are to be believed, a background in IT and an Audi on the drive (a load of balls, I know) – I seriously wanted to know how many people really struggle to get close to that wage.

I work in the Construction Industry mostly, so none of your mamby pamby 8 hr days 😉 £10per hr x 10hrs x 5 days x 50 weeks = £25k.

Maybe I did set the bar a little high – take off breaks, maybe 48 weeks, not 50 – so £20k then? General unskilled labourers can get £8 per hour, is £10 still seen as a good wage?

It sounded like you were sitting on your throne looking with the assumption that earning over 25k is an easy choice to make…

I know some people have chosen jobs well below that pay grade – TJ for example. He seemed happy with what he was doing (maybe TJ & ‘happy’ is an oxymoron though) so good for him.

You are still missing the point that people have ‘chosen’ jobs well below the pay grade – i would suggest to you that many people have jobs out of survival and existance, not choice.

Personally, even if I discarded the past 25 years I’ve been in work, I think I would be able to go out and earn £20-25k without too many issues. Don’t think for a minute I’m assuming this is possible for everyone – I’m not that daft.

My question was really borne from davidtaylforths comments – I’m intrigued as to whether people ON HERE AND CAPABLE OF REPLYING are on low incomes, why they are on low incomes, what could be done to change that and whether it’s a lifestyle choice, or circumstance that’s governed that.

If someone chooses to work in an LBS for £7.50 an hour, yet could go to the local quarry and earn £10 an hour, that’s a choice.

If someone has split from their partner, has children to look after and the only work available to suit them is minimum wage at Tesco, then not so much a choice.

Choosing to learn a trade is a choice – being born on a rough council estate in the North East, with industry closing down and no apprenticeships available removes that choice somewhat.

I’m lucky to a certain extent as to where I live – I’ve still made choices that have determined where I am today. I’m currently out of work for up to 3 months due to injury (self-employed). Have I sat round getting into debt? No, I’ve adapted to survive.

Whilst there are millions who don’t have so much choice, there will still be plenty who bemoan the situation they are in, without having the gumption to even try and do something about it.

There’s a certain company that gets mentioned quite a bit on here – I can see how that was started with a little bit of get-up and go, not necessarily a lot of money and by my reckoning should be making reasonable profits (impossible to know how much obviously).

There’s a lot of talk here about how people resent those earning more. I don’t – but I do resent people who earn plenty and endlessly moan on about how skint they are, and how they pay too much tax, and how they’re only going to be able to afford 3 foreign holidays this year.

The guy I know who earns the most money is happy to contribute and never whinges about tax or lack of cash – his wife does though!

There’s a lot of really vitally important jobs out there that require a lot of ability and commitment to do well, that don’t pay much over minimum wage. Eg being a carer for people with special needs. Lots of people make a choice to do work like that because it’s important and it needs doing. Should they all aspire to do something else so try get paid more?

but I do resent people who earn plenty ad endlessly moan on about how skint they are

I work with a single mum who earns somewhere between £90k – £110k. No childcare costs thanks to nice parents who live next to her kid’s school.

She moans constantly about how hard it is financially to be own your own and how hard it is to bring up a kid on one salary. She’s absolutely deluded. Worst of it is, she has long “we’re all in the same boat” conversations with a couple of other single parents in the office, both of whom earn less than £15k.

She said to one of the other mums that she really hoped she got bonus this year otherwise she’d be struggling for xmas. Her bonus is more than that woman earns in a year!

Boils my piss.

I can understand that £60k is seen as a very good salary/wage, however does anyone struggle to make £25k – I don’t mean through choice, but genuine situation?

I’m on 17,000. My wife has just managed to get a pay rise to the heady heights of 14,500. Both of us work full time and are constantly applying for new jobs. There just isn’t much around. I have a couple of friends who earn around 100k but I seem to be on one of the higher wages out of people I know (less than my sister who’s a teacher though!)

I’m 29, university graduate, working in an office. Living the dream.

it was a question aimed at the STW demographic.

Then all this question can hope to achieve is determine whether your views on the STW demographic are correct.

Take a look at unemployment figures. Take a look at the swathes of young people coming out of university who have been sold the dream of ‘get a degree get a job’. A lot of them are likely better educated than you. A chap I know gave his two daughters the best middle class upbringing imaginable. They were both educated by top universities and exceeded the average throughout the entirety of their academic lives. They do not make 25k between them.

Consider a Post-doc working now to cure Diabetes at a top 10 university, with a First Class degree and PhD from Oxford. Not much more than 25k.

Sure, they’re all under 30. And hey, this is anecdotal evidence, but that’s the kind you wanted.

It took me 6 years after graduation to earn £25k.

Why? Combination of factors. I went travelling after uni (my choice) for a year. When it came to getting a job, I found that my degree really didn’t count for anything, and that I was still expected to start at the bottom. After a while temping, my first “proper job” out of uni earned me just over £13k, and was customer service in a callcentre.

I trained to go on the technical helpdesk, since that seemed to pay a bit more, and made it to the dizzy heights of £17k once I got a full time job in IT support, which rose to £20k with an on-call allowance. I was, however, bored out of my mind, and I retrained as a youth worker (again, my choice). I earned about the same doing yoof work as I had in IT support, but there was no job security. I landed a contract managing a youth employment project, and as a manager, my salary went up a bit, but only by a couple of grand. After that contract ended, I went to be a project manager back in the IT world, due to lack of jobs because the Tories cut all the yoof services apart from forced-labour-in-pound-shop programmes. Only then did I break the £25k barrier, 2 years ago.

Some of it was my choice, admittedly, like travel and retraining, which meant I spent time out of the workforce, so my salary is probably 2 years behind those who graduated when I did and have worked ever since.

You seem to have to move jobs quite often in order to get higher pay – I have worked in a few places where I was promoted, i.e. given extra responsibility and higher expectations, but didn’t get a salary hike, or if I did, it was minimal, and I was paid less than what someone from outside the company would have got, i.e. less than what they advertised the job externally for. My last two job moves have been for that reason, because I don’t see why I should take on more responsibility and receive little or no reward. Salaries are not rising in line with inflation, I’m not going to say that Mr Panda and I are poor; we are not, with a combined income of around £54k, but we’re in a rent trap and have little spare to save. Still, we aren’t struggling to pay our bills though, so we are grateful for the fact that we don’t have to make any really hard choices, like between food and heating our home. We grumble at times when we can’t afford things we want, but it’s useful to remind ourselves we are much better off than many people who don’t have the skills and experience that we do, in order to earn the kind of wages that allow us to live in relative comfort, and not worry about the next electricity bill or whatever.

We are also in the fairly fortunate position of not wanting children, so we don’t have to worry about how we would finance a family.

however does anyone struggle to make £25k – I don’t mean through choice, but genuine situation?

Out of maybe 50 people of my (uni) course, all who graduated, a small handful of those even got a job within a few months of graduating.

Of those who got a job, about 5 of those would be on £20k+ if i’m being optimistic.

I started at 20 when I graduated, 2 years later on 22.5. Could probably justify 25 if I changed job but my job is safe and enjoyable so until the new year here I remain.

My Mrs started on £17k. She is now on 19. Desperately looking for a new job but it’s very hard being at the bottom of all the ladders.

Currently right now, for everyone I know my age bar 1 person, a 60k job looks securely like a dream.

Luckily, I’m only 23 years old.

Interesting years ahead, and interesting hearing the opinions of the job market from people who are older than myself.

Currently right now, for everyone I know my age bar 1 person, a 60k job looks securely like a dream.

Don’t take this the wrong way but it has pretty much always been like this. Unless you did a vocational degree and decided to work in a highly paid industry then this won’t change.

They were both educated by top universities and exceeded the average throughout the entirety of their academic lives. They do not make 25k between them.

How long are they out of Uni and what area? Sounds low if experienced, but if new out of Uni then on a par with what I’d expect.

Consider a Post-doc working now to cure Diabetes at a top 10 university, with a First Class degree and PhD from Oxford. Not much more than 25k.

Seems unlikely, I’d expect something around the 29k. (Pedant note: You don’t get a PhD for Oxford.)

What is everyone doing to only earn 17k out of Uni? I mostly know scientists and engineers, and all started on more than that. More likely the 22-24k mark, with some in the low 30k’s.

More than twice the average UK salary in one of the richest countries on the planet. If that’s not rich, the word has no meaning.

More than twice the average UK salary in one of the richest countries on the planet. If that’s not rich, the word has no meaning.

Well if you are going to compare it to the rest of the world then you are quite right. Of course by that comparison everyone in the UK is rich.

As has been said many times, income is a poor way to define relative wealth.

Here’s a simple test. Do you have to work? If you do, you’re not rich.

Well if you are going to compare it to the rest of the world then you are quite right. Of course by that comparison everyone in the UK is rich.

As has been said many times, income is a poor way to define relative wealth.

You seem to have missed that £60k is more than twice the UK median full-time salary. Your comment about defining relative wealth is, I strongly suspect, one only made by people with money.

ransos – Member
You seem to have missed that £60k is more than twice the UK median full-time salary. Your comment about defining relative wealth is, I strongly suspect, one only made by people with money.

the original statement was about a family earning 50-60k total in the SE

Here’s a simple test. Do you have to work? If you do, you’re not rich.

So if I had 50 million pounds, spent all of it on a massive mansion, but then had to work to pay for food/bills etc, you wouldn’t classify me as rich?

You seem to have missed that £60k is more than twice the UK median full-time salary

Nope I didn’t miss that at all.

Your comment about defining relative wealth is, I strongly suspect, one only made by people with money.

Well you were the one who used the term “one of the richest countries on the planet” which I took to mean that you wanted to compare wealth across many countries. The point I was to making was to illustrate how pointless that was. Oh and just because some has money, doesn’t make their opinions and comments worthless or wrong.

the original statement was about a family earning 50-60k total in the SE

The original statement was “you don’t feel particularly rich”. It doesn’t mean that perception matches reality.

Well you were the one who used the term “one of the richest countries on the planet” which I took to mean that you wanted to compare wealth across many countries. The point I was to making was to illustrate how pointless that was.

Yes, I was asking for some perspective, which I suggest is sorely lacking.

Oh and just because some has money, doesn’t make their opinions and comments worthless or wrong.

I don’t recall suggesting otherwise.

Wealth / Richness can really only be defined by a person’s ability to either

1/ Have a windfall
2/ Live well within their means and successfully invest the rest of their income to generate wealth.

It only has a tenuous link to monthly net income, in that it provides the potential to make you rich or wealthy

For instance I know a chap who works in the city, a compulsive gambler and alcoholic, earns well over £100K a year, owns no property and has no savings. he is neither rich nor wealthy

What is everyone doing to only earn 17k out of Uni? I mostly know scientists and engineers, and all started on more than that. More likely the 22-24k mark, with some in the low 30k’s.

The reality for most non-science / Engineering grads is 17k a year… My OH’s sister and friends are all in the same boat leading to many of them going back to become primary school teachers… There is going to be a lot of primary school teachers about with useless sports science and pyschology degrees….

I am assuming a low 30k start for engineers is in the south again as that is well above what i have seen in this area …. (I am a degree level engineer)…

For instance I know a chap who works in the city, a compulsive gambler and alcoholic, earns well over £100K a year, owns no property and has no savings. he is neither rich nor wealthy

Yes he is, he just wastes his wealth on gambling and booze, how he spends money is a choice for him.

The reality for most non-science / Engineering grads is 17k a year… My OH’s sister and friends are all in the same boat leading to many of them going back to become primary school teachers…

Starting salary for teaching is currently about £21k, minus whatever is lost through strike action.

So if I had 50 million pounds, spent all of it on a massive mansion, but then had to work to pay for food/bills etc, you wouldn’t classify me as rich?

You wouldn’t have to work. You could sell it, buy a 25 million hovel and no longer work. Working is a choice.

If you have the choice, you’re rich.

It only has a tenuous link to monthly net income

Can I have 10% of your net salary seeing as its only tenuous?

No idea how anyone can argue that what you earn is not related to how well off you are.

Yes he is, he just wastes his wealth on gambling and booze, how he spends money is a choice for him.

Well that’s the point, isn’t it? I’ve heard people on salaries well into six figures complaining that they don’t have any money. Is it just possible that’s because they have a large house, private school fees, an expensive car, a cottage in the Cotswolds and two foreign holidays each year?

Well you were the one who used the term “one of the richest countries on the planet” which I took to mean that you wanted to compare wealth across many countries. The point I was to making was to illustrate how pointless that was.

I’m interested to know why you think it’s ‘pointless’.

Starting salary for teaching is currently about £21k, minus whatever is lost through strike action.

I imagine thats why many are doing it, safe job with a decent starting wage… not exactly low 30’s though which if a graduate obtains up here in the midlands would be really going some / silver spoon / daddy plays golf with the director…

You wouldn’t have to work. You could sell it, buy a 25 million hovel and no longer work. Working is a choice.
If you have the choice, you’re rich.

Well everyone in this country has a ‘choice’ whether to work or not. If you believe the Daily Mail millions of people choose not to work.

Most people in this country could choose to massively downsize/cut expenditure and work a lot less – but they choose not to (then whine about it).

I’m interested to know why you think it’s ‘pointless’.

In terms of progressing this particular debate it is pointless.

No idea how anyone can argue that what you earn is not related to how well off you are.

No-one had said it’s unrelated, just that there are many other factors not related to income that also affect how well off you are. Focusing on one criteria, just because it’s easy to measure, doesn’t mean you’ll come up with a sensible answer.

You wouldn’t have to work. You could sell it, buy a 25 million hovel and no longer work. Working is a choice.

If you have the choice, you’re rich.

We decided that my Mrs didn’t need to hurry back to work after the birth of our child. I suspect my salary wouldn’t be your idea of rich…

dragon,
You’re bang on with that figure (and pedantry) – I’m saying not much more than 25k compared to the 60k figure, all things considered.
The girls are in the humanities pit unfortunately, one is seeking a training contract but it’s a battle. I agree with your numbers for Science / Engineering graduate starting salaries: Most of the big defence boys are offering around 25k – 30k for graduate schemes, without much variation with location: You can get this in Glasgow.

I think all the last 6 pages have proved is that “rich” is a perjorative term and that whoever used it to start this debate has been very successfull at achiving the publicity they were after.

That and that it is a relative term and different people have different view on what it means.

This whole six pages has been a debate of semantics. I hope everyone feels good about that!

One of the reasons I never did the move-to-London thing after uni was that even though salaries are higher, they do not compensate for the higher living costs in the capital.

However, I think there probably are better career opportunities in London/SE, if you’re willing to go down there as a new grad and put up with the hardship or have parents who can help while you’re on a grad scheme salary and paying at least half your wage in rent. Grad salaries in London can, in certain specialisms (IT, engineering, finance) start at £25-28k. But in London, that doesn’t actually go very far, especially when you’re also paying off student loans and possibly a student overdraft as well, unless you work somewhere like where I do, that offers grads interest free grad loans and the option to buy a yearly travel pass interest free. If you happen to be from London or the SE, and are willing/able to live at home for the first couple of years, then obviously, you’re much better off. I would rather have eaten my brains with a spoon than lived back with either of my parents – again, a choice I made meaning I was less well off than my friends who did that and saved money to buy their own place whilst living rent free and earning a London salary.

There’s also a lot of competition for those grad schemes – it’s fierce. Many of them will only take students with degrees of 2:1 or higher, and only from particular disciplines. I had a humanities/languages degree, and nobody wanted to hire me, because I wasn’t considered to be skilled/experienced for the modern workplace. Hence, like many graduates, I ended up doing fairly low skilled work for the first 2-3 years after graduating, and needed to gain vocational/professional qualifications in order to progress in the workplace.

Money wasn’t so much a motivation for me as getting away from the drudgery of a lot of that type of work. Being tied to a phone and at the whim of a stroppy customer or jumped up middle manager whose computer wasn’t working didn’t do much for my self esteem. Going to work and it feeling like groundhog day, same problems over and over again. In low paid/low skill jobs, you tend to have little autonomy, and there’s not much flexiblity. As I’ve gone towards the managerial roles, I find that I’m treated like an adult, trusted to manage my own time and workload, and that I’m allowed to give short shrift to anyone who behaves rudely or inappropriately towards me. And incidentally, I do not allow anyone in my team to be rude to helpdesk staff, IT support staff or admins – I remember all too well what it was like being dumped on myself.

There’s also a lot of competition for those grad schemes – it’s fierce. Many of them will only take students with degrees of 2:1 or higher,

Most of the big defence boys are offering around 25k – 30k for graduate schemes, without much variation with location: You can get this in Glasgow.

There is the point; you can get them, but there will be another 250 applicants for the same position taking only the best / most well connected on. This the truth for many of the better graduate schemes.

With what seems like every 18yo going to uni now it was always going to be impossible to find high-ranking jobs for them all. That starts another argument, that not everybody should be going to uni in the first place…