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so, explain to me why hincapie is so annoyed
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jimbobrightonFree Member
I don't get it. its a race, breaks away, doesn't make it, doesn't get the jersey by 5 seconds. yet feels that he should have been allowed to get his hands on the yellow.
I'm newish to following this road malarky – please can someone explain why people feel he should have been allowed the jersey?
As a footnote, that judge who disqualified Cav yesterday is a complete and utter unit. That much I do understand!
cynic-alFree MemberWasn't it his team that did some of the work chasing him though?
rolfharrisFree MemberNah, they'd get to the front and sit up.
He's annoyed because he didn't get it, regarless of the situation. Got to take it out on someone.
Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middling Edition
Latest Singletrack VideosFresh Goods Friday 696: The Middlin...skidartistFree MemberHis team were in the awkward position of trying to be at the front of the pack to get sprint points, but without trying to speed up the chase. I think Cav's constant looking over his shoulders towards the line seemed to be him trying to be in front by as little margin as possible.
rOcKeTdOgFull Memberhe was annoyed with Astana as he was told they were driving on the front, annoyed because he worked is ass off on all of lance's tour wins, but lance must have ok'd the chase even though he knew George wouldn't be able to stay with him in the mountains (not sure astana did chase thoughas i didn't see the whole stage)
+ as cav demonstrated, you can be a bit emotional straight after a stage and adrenalin is still pumpingIdleJonFull MemberPerhaps if Hincapie wanted the jersey that much he should have been pushing hard for the line in the last 10km instead of sitting up waiting for others to chase down the breaks. Sure, he would have towed the rest of the break up to the line, but he had everything to gain from it.
Bad tactics from him I thought.
paulosoxoFree MemberIt's more likely that it was the fact it wasn't the sprinters or the yellow jersey team that chased the breakaway down. Astana & Garmin had nothing to gain by chasing the break, no GC threat in the break, Hincapie would have lost the jersey by tonight, They're not concerned with the Green jersey. So it did seem to me that the wrong teams were doing the work
edit, agree with the above. I'd have though Hincapie would have buried himself and sacrificed any chance of a stage win to grab the yellow
Steve-AustinFree MemberAstana chased at to stop the break getting a huge gap. they had to do this.
Big George was more pi$$ed that the rest of the breakaway wouldn't help him get the yellow, when he was doing a lot of the driving to keep the breakaway away.Once the breakaway was established and the main pack had no chance of catching, pretty much every rider in the break sat up, so George spent the last 20-30 k knowing he wouldn't get yellow.
I can understand why he was miffed, but you have to work for the yellow.paulosoxoFree MemberFor what it's worth, the bunch could have brought the time down an awful lot more if they had wanted too.
pslingFree MemberI was surprised that Nic Roche led him in at the end being as how Roche is in the yellow jersey team though as it happens it didn't matter. None of the teams really led a chase from the peleton although Astana made sure they stayed in touch without knackering themselves for the mountains. I reckon Cavendish was hard done by but Thor is showing himself to be a right whinger over the last couple of finishes. It'll be interesting to see how Cavendish reacts in his riding from now on – which will be more important, finishing the event or finishing in green? Columbia HTC probably reckon to get more kudos from their teamwork in the Points Series than the likelyhood of Hincapie finishing the GC in Yellow although it did make it interesting as the peleton finished yesterday watching what was in effect a slow-mo sprint!
IdleJonFull MemberBig George was more pi$$ed that the rest of the breakaway wouldn't help him get the yellow, when he was doing a lot of the driving to keep the breakaway away.Once the breakaway was established and the main pack had no chance of catching, pretty much every rider in the break sat up, so George spent the last 20-30 k knowing he wouldn't get yellow.
I didn't see Hincapie doing much driving, but then I only saw highlights. Regardless, he should have kept going all the way to the line.
I have a feeling he was torn between a stage win and yellow and got greedy and wanted both.
JaseFree MemberPerhaps Garmin were chasing as they didn't want another American team in yellow?
AndyPFree MemberI have a feeling he was torn between a stage win and yellow and got greedy and wanted both.
nah…he wanted yellow. Stage win unimportant at this point, and he was in a break with Ciolek and Bennati so wouldn't have really expected the win had Ivanov not got away.
However, not only did he not get yellow, but they've now well and truly fecked up Cavendish's chances of Green. All over unless Thor crashes. Stupid move, spectacular FAIL.xherbivorexFree Memberi found it odd that he was saying it was the "chance of a lifetime" post-race… maybe that was the adrenaline talking, but does he have so little faith in his own ability/longevity?
MrSmithFree MemberI can understand why he was miffed, but you have to work for the yellow.
he's been 'working for the yellow' for more years than anyone else in the peleton, you would have though they would have allowed him his day of glory.
BlingBlingFree MemberSo match fixing is allowed in cycling then?
Lifetime ban in other sports…..
oldgitFree MemberThe yellow jersey train did the damage in the end. Roches move looked odd at first, however if it was done under orders then it was bloody clever as it disrupted the breakaways efforts.
I thought Hincapie should of if possible taken a strong rider away with him, and let the other rider take the stage and him the yellow.
From what I've seen of the cavendish incident it seems to me that the barriers came out to him rather than Cav closing the door.MrSmithFree Memberit's not match fixing. the overall result is not affected and any team could have done their own thing at any time. it's more like a batsman in his last innings before retirement on 99 not out and his captain declaring and not letting him reach his 100. there would have been no harm done if he could have stepped up onto the podium after being a tour rider for 15 years.
IdleJonFull MemberBlingBling – Member
So match fixing is allowed in cycling then?Don't know about 'allowed', but it certainly happens all the time, and is widely known about.
xherbivorex – Member
i found it odd that he was saying it was the "chance of a lifetime" post-race… maybe that was the adrenaline talking, but does he have so little faith in his own ability/longevity?He's 36 – would you expect to be riding for much longer at that age?
IdleJonFull MemberMrSmith – Member
it's not match fixing. the overall result is not affected and any team could have done their own thing at any time. it's more like a batsman in his last innings before retirement on 99 not out and his captain declaring and not letting him reach his 100. there would have been no harm done if he could have stepped up onto the podium after being a tour rider for 15 years.Rubbish, it is match fixing.
If I let you win today, it'll be on the basis that you ride for me tomorrow, to help me up the mountains. Or maybe we'll just pay your team to ride for us wholesale (remember CSC a few years ago, with the brown enevlope through the car window.) Or it could be that I'm in a break, and I'll just pay you to let me win.
All happen on many occasions, and all affect the result, and it's happened since the dawn of pro bike racing.
MrSmithFree Memberyou could argue that match fixing goes on between team members, after all some go to the front and do the work others are made to drop back or hand over their wheels if the service car is nowhere near. why don't they just have every rider do the whole tour but set off in 10min intervals? that would be a fairer race and get rid of the "match fixing".
xherbivorexFree MemberHe's 36 – would you expect to be riding for much longer at that age?
i'm 41!
but yeah, i get your point and it's fair enough, i didn't know how old he was. figured he was 30ish…
sputnikFree MemberMatch fixing? Jeez, that sounds a bit negative mate. It is called tactics, strategy , gameplay etc but not match fixing.(Its a race not a match anyway 😉 ) .
I find pro cycling facinating because there is such a lot of things happening on so many levels. It is like a game of chess where mountain biking is like a game of draughts.RealManFree MemberAnyone got a video of what happened with cav? Missed the stage, and it sounds like I missed a lot..
MrSalmonFree MemberMaybe it would have been a nice gesture if they'd let him have it, but I don't see that Garmin and/or anyone else have really done anything wrong here by choosing not to- surely it's up to teams to take the jersey, not for the others to give it to them? And as rocketdog says he has been in yellow before.
sputnikFree Membervideo of cav finishing sprint. he is innocent, the barriers should be straight in the last 100 m at least, thor is a whinger.
http://www.steephill.tv/players/tinypic/?title=tdf-09-st14-cavendish-finish&id=33c11z5RealManFree MemberWell, he definitely wasnt trying to get out of the way, but the barrier also does go inwards where it shouldnt – but if there was a kerb or something there, they had no choice but to put the barrier there. Its hard to tell if he was innocent or guilty.
aracerFree Memberbut I don't see that Garmin and/or anyone else have really done anything wrong here by choosing not to
The point being that Garmin gained nothing themselves by chasing. He wasn't taking it from them, but from AG2R – it was up to AG2R to stop him taking it if they wanted to, not up to any other team who had nothing to gain.
I was surprised he didn't drive harder for the line in the last few km – could only think he reckoned he was better off to get somebody else working with him, but why on earth just not time trial the last 5km?
nickcFull MemberCavendish checks and looks to see where Thor is, and then moves off his line* to push him into the barrier, he knew what he was doing, and Thor was right to complain.
*this is the point here, Cav's run in is clear, ahead is just a team mate, all he had to do was keep going…he moved un-necessarily, it's dangerous and, against the rules…
aracerFree Memberbut if there was a kerb or something there
If there had been a kerb, you'd expect the centre line to move as well, rather than the barrier getting closer to it.
The whole thing was entirely the fault of the organisers for not having a finishing "straight".
aracerFree Membermoves off his line
But did he really? Can you tell me the point at which he makes this deliberate move? From what I could see there was no deviation at all from a smooth line taking him to the finish. Certainly no sudden change of direction to block – if he did do it on purpose it was very clever to line himself up on a smooth line to block so far in advance, when he didn't even know what the barrier was going to do.
MrSalmonFree MemberThe point being that Garmin gained nothing themselves by chasing. He wasn't taking it from them, but from AG2R – it was up to AG2R to stop him taking it if they wanted to, not up to any other team who had nothing to gain.
Well, they kept probably their biggest rivals out of yellow, and aren't they entitled to do that? Aside from keeping Wiggins up there, and any one of dozens of tactical reasons they might have? I appreciate there's arguably a kind of vaguely 'unsporting' aspect to it but ultimately they haven't done anything wrong, and I can't help but think that nobody would give a toss if it was some other one of the other riders in that break who had a sniff of yellow.
I like Hincapie and I was really rooting for him to get yellow but I can't see that he's been as hard done by as all that.
MrSalmonFree MemberIf there had been a kerb, you'd expect the centre line to move as well, rather than the barrier getting closer to it.
The whole thing was entirely the fault of the organisers for not having a finishing "straight".
Having just disagreed with you on Hincapie, I agree on this 🙂
Cavendish was treated harshly I reckon.aracerFree MemberWell, they kept probably their biggest rivals out of yellow, and aren't they entitled to do that?
I suppose they are, but they don't seem to be big enough to admit that was why they did it.
crazy-legsFull MemberIf I let you win today, it'll be on the basis that you ride for me tomorrow, to help me up the mountains. Or maybe we'll just pay your team to ride for us wholesale (remember CSC a few years ago, with the brown enevlope through the car window.) Or it could be that I'm in a break, and I'll just pay you to let me win.
That happens all the time even in amateur racing, albeit in a much less polished and professional manner. Even 1/2 races will have some sort of structure and organisation within their team riders, working together to get their best contender the best result.
Just as an aside the brown envelope thing was one mechanic passing his phone no to another, nothing to do with CSC working for (then) Discovery Channel. But it goes on all the time, alliances formed and broken, riders collaborating for a common goal.It was apparently Garmin team orders to chase the break down although Wiggins later said on his Twitter site that he didn't understand the logic behind it. It's not like it would have affected the overall too much.
IdleJonFull MemberJust as an aside the brown envelope thing was one mechanic passing his phone no to another, nothing to do with CSC working for (then) Discovery Channel. But it goes on all the time, alliances formed and broken, riders collaborating for a common goal.
Just a telephone number, in the middle of a race? okay……
Just happens that CSC worked their butts off for Disco during those few stages.
crazy-legsFull MemberJust a telephone number, in the middle of a race? okay……
I'm only saying what I've seen written about that stage… Win-win situation for both teams at the time though regardless of team orders.
aracerFree MemberYou sure you've remembered that right and it wasn't a telephone number sized bung?
ajfFree Memberseems garmin chasing down yesterday played well for wiggins today!
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