But you're perfectly capable of driving without it, yes? You'd feel the wheels slip and lighten up a bit until they bit again. ABS rocks hugely but I'm still not convinced that traction control offers that much to most people.

Well I'm not sure in that situation, where suddenly only one side was on snow, whether the car would have stayed straight without TC.
And get squirelly would have meant, best case, scraping against the HGV. 😮

As goan said, if it activates, you're driving wrong, or you're just messing about. The only time mine lights up is when I want it to.

What a load of bo11ocks . . .

The system that controls traction power distribution to the wheels is something that you CANNOT control in the same way with the 3 pedals you have at your feet . . .

TC/Stability control can vary power to each driven wheel independently and retardation to all wheels independently, it understands yaw, yaw rate, steering angle, individual wheel grip levels . . . that is not possible with a clutch, throttle, brake and steering wheel . . . no matter how big your ego . . .

If you think you can do better than a properly developed TC system, I'll lay 1000 quid on the table right now that says you cannot . . . and I will be 1000 quid better off every time you take the challenge . . .

I drive competitively and am certainly an average driver (class winner in Scotland for the last 2 years), and I know (from datalogger data) that TC and LC systems are better than I am, the people I compete with (who are also at least average drivers – all of whom are class or championship winning drivers) would all agree with me . . . it's very difficult or impossible to beat TC . . .

This is what I am talking about . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jX4TZcS4JQ

and real TC at 60 seconds here . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ9VJJknew4

I don't drive with TC, but that time will come . . . on the road I wouldn't be without it . . .

The same abilities principles apply to snow/ice/whatever you like . . .

Only the deluded think they are better . . .

**** me that looks like fun!

@ fergusd – awesome driving dude – that would shit me right up – that road looks too narrow to be doing something like that.

However, you obviously don't realise we are talking about Goan here (aka Smee and I believe glupton). He is actually better than most people at most things. He pulls an awesome 2k split on an ergo, he runs nigh on championship winning times in a half marathon. But, driving and biking are where he transcends mere mortality.

Of course, some would say he be a fillet-o-shit but I'm not doubting him for one second.

For the record, I'm with the "I wouldn't drive without TC" crowd but I'm only human.

The original question was about moving off in snow, not travelling at speed.

I say experiment; not all cars behave the same. I alternate between a Vectra and an AUDI and the Vauxhall is universally shite in the snow, the AUDI being mostly OK, but the electronics can be hoodwinked in some conditions. If this happens they eventually switch themselves off anyway because the brakes get hot. AUDI instruction book says switch off if it's really slippy, an I guess they've thought about it.

Traction control I have something on my VW transporter T5 called ASR which makes it a totally crap motor in snow or wet grass .
I first realised when towing the landy trialer to events , it brakes the wheel that is spinning so you slow down and lose momentum

turn it off and it is a whole lot better .

I dont know how it helps when normal driving though

DD – get over yourself.

fergusd – we're talking about moving off from a stop, not racing so what you are saying is irrelevant. You over corrected your slide and your reaction to sliding was to lift off too….

DD – get over yourself.

Well glupton, seeing as you are brilliant at most things that you do, I'm looking for a superhero slot to fill…seems you've got most of 'em filled. I've decided that my alter ego will be Mr Bullshitfinder (as opposed to, say, Mr. Bullshit. Smee, do you know anyone that might like to be Mr. Bullshit?).

My bullshit-o-meter needle is currently flicking into the red zone 😯

What a load of bo11ocks . . .

The system that controls traction power distribution….

All very interesting but you should try and boost your reading skills up to the same level as your driving ones.This is not about who is the better driver or who might be as good as traction control. I'm sure you're a much better driver than me, however, if during normal driving conditions you get yourself into a situation when traction control is needed, then you've done it wrong in the first place.

DD – I'm not surprised your bullshitometer is in the red zone given what you've just typed….

I'm certain it helps once you are moving but for getting going are you better banging it in third and easing it away without, or relying on the TC to do it's thing in 2nd?

If it engages whilst trying to pull away disable it and then once moving enable it.

You have to love the armchair 'driving purists' on here.

ESP will be running ~ 200 times per second and is best placed to know what the vehicle is doing. On definitely.

Whilst it calculates it isn't active and you don't definitely want it on for pulling away. Now go and sit down.

Although i'm not sure which one of you it is!

My view is… you get in the V70, turn on the seat heaters, press winter on the auto box and then drive normally other than braking a bit gently. And it takes 3 bikes in the boot!

If that's the traction control then V70 FTW!

I love these threads! 🙂

I've never owned a car with TC, although I have driven one a lot (VW Eos). Now, in normal (Non-snowy) conditions, if found said car handled better at extremes with it turned off: When it's on the damned thing was lurching all over the place if I tried anything, err, exuberant shall we say? And I hated it. Turn it off and everything goes smooth again. Sure, the car slides, but I'm OK with that, and quite happy to provoke traction loss for fun, for own use… 🙂
See now let me explain, im MY 'misspent' youth, I used to go fishing a lot. And this entails driving down long rough gravel tracks, in fields, allsorts. That's where my mates and I learned silly tricks in our cheap cars. Handbrakes, J-turns, reverse flicks. Because it's fun and stupid and harming nobody. 🙂
Then I did a LOT of driving offroad at work in various vehicles from Astra vans, and Landrovers to big CAT loading shovels and the like. I can assure you it's possible to 4-wheel drift a 26-tonne loading shovel in the right circumstances!
My dad was also a fairly decent rally driver. I've been in a car with him sideways a few times too. So it seemed natural to me when I started driving….
Maybe I was lucky to have this experience, maybe you think I'm nuts or some sort of big-headed twunt, but the fact is I can now control a sliding car. I don't freeze up and shit myself, it's just a normal thing to do to me, and I can only remember one slide I wasn't expecting (I span on the road and got away with it!) but I was a very new driver at the time and hadn't sussed it all out properly. My dad also commented years later that said car (E-reg Nissan Micra) was a shocking handler anyway. Ho-Hum…. You only learn where the limit is when you pass it! 😉

As a result of all my years of stupidity, I don't get caught out any more. Snow driving doesn't phase me and gettting older and having bills to pay means I take it steady when it's icy mostly anyway. If there's nobody around, I might have some fun with wheelspin or whip round a corner on the handbrake, just to keep myself sharp… 😉
I'd like to see how TC works in the snow, but I can't see it being a major benefit, TBH.

Best 'snow car' I ever had was my 1990 Fiat Panda. Little skinny 135 tyres, front wheel drive, superb! We had some heavy snow the first year i had it and I well remember towing a mates bigger car out of piled up snow at the side of the road and bump starting him down the street with it. Impressive! The old 4×4 Panda must be simply awsome in snow! 🙂

ABS rocks hugely

In some conditions and on some cars, certainly. In an overly cautious Peugeot though, it simply turned the brakes off on icy hills. Not quite what's needed with a sharp left hander and a wall at the bottom. Having driven down the same hill on ice over the years with Ford's and VW's ABS, they're better, but still nowhere near as controllable as me deciding when I want to at least attempt to stop in my old escort (The pug's ABS wouldn't let me stop at all!)

In pretty much any other condition than sheet ice though, ABS does indeed rock

doesnt traction control provide power to the wheel or wheels that are losing or have lost grip ? if you have no grip then how can you split no grip to 4 wheels which would result in loss of power to all wheels? at least with TC off u can control what your doing.

i have an 05 Subaru STI and have just set the DCCD to one click off fully locked and switch the Auto control off. its been great and i have had hardly an issues in the snow.

Coming back over the moors from Scarboro earlier in the year in pretty bad snow I reached the conclusion that the best way to get going on the steeper sections (I wouldn't have been stopped ideally but too many cars were pissing about/stuck in front) was to leave the TC on, foot to the floor, steering wheel left/right slowly all the time – gradually hauled me up. Grande Punto diesel btw – it earned it's money that day! On the flat you shouldn't really need it to get going I don't think, but I'd still be leaving it on.

grand punto's are FWD and should be better in snow, think of the poor bmw drivers 😀

think of the poor bmw drivers

My heart bleeds. 😉

Snow driving?

Find another way other than driving – stay indoors and be merry!

it's my understanding, and I could be entirely wrong, that TC controls power to the wheels not by varying individual power being applied to each wheel but by applying the brakes on the wheels that are spinning (as well as retarding the engine when it's going mad).

Drive a BMW in reverse to get up a snowy hill.

back to the OP. I live on a steep cul de sac, which currently has about 3 inches of hardpacked snow and has had for days. I am currently driving a new Mondeo (new company car on order, this is a stopgap). I have found that if i leave the TC on, the revs drop and the car grinds to a halt. If I switch it off then I can gun it in 2nd, get the speed up and get up the road. Am I doing something wrong ?

As soon as I get onto the normal road i put it straight back on..

Drac – you seem to have taken some kind of offense to my comment.

I'm genuinely interested to know what level of knowledge and experience you have of working with ESP and TC systems?

If you think about how TC works (AFAIK) – loss of grip=power drop, then driving on an almost frictionless surface is likely to wreak havoc with it. Similarly for ABS

woody is correct – TC and ABS will both struggle with severe loss of traction. They do the best they can – but ultimately if there is no traction then it can't "magic" grip from out of nowhere.

And just to confirm ESP is different from TC – if your car has TC then it doesn't necessarily have ESP.

I've owned cars with ESP, ASR, TC etc.

The ESP was quite effective in damp conditions, but if I wanted to really press on it could be quite intrusive.

With very little grip available then the systems are better switched off when setting off.

As Samuri says, when driving well on the road there are very few occasions that it is actually useful.

My current car has no TC/ESP or the like and I don't miss it.

ps. Learn to ride a motorbike properly and your driving will improve a lot.

Drac – you seem to have taken some kind of offense to my comment.

I'm genuinely interested to know what level of knowledge and experience you have of working with ESP and TC systems?

No offence by it, just you seemed to think no one knew what they were on about. Working with do you mean engineering side or mechanical the answer to either of those is none. Driving with them on vehicles in proper snowing conditions then lots.

The question was simple, should he switch if off when pulling away. The answer was simple too, yes if it engages itself when he's trying to pull away.

it's my understanding, and I could be entirely wrong, that TC controls power to the wheels not by varying individual power being applied to each wheel but by applying the brakes on the wheels that are spinning (as well as retarding the engine when it's going mad).

Focus manual says this:

At speeds below 53 mph (85 km/h), both the engine and the brake system will be used to control wheel spin; at speeds above 53 mph (85 km/h), only engine torque reduction is used. When the Traction Control™ system is switched off, the braking system will still be used to control wheel spin at speeds below 25 mph (40 km/h).

which is a bit wooly really 😕

I might have some fun with wheelspin or whip round a corner on the handbrake, just to keep myself sharp…
I'd like to see how TC works in the snow, but I can't see it being a major benefit, TBH.

Well yeah if you're looking to deliberately drift or slide the car then TC is probably going to be working against you. But I assumed we were talking about braving the snow to nip down the A38 and get some biscuits from ASDA, not competing in the World Rally Championship in snowy forest in Finland. 😀