If this could be dealt with easily in beer gardens by a friendly “would you mind putting that out or moving elsewhere, we’d quite like to enjoy our beer and meal without those toxic fumes” chat it would be great, but that’s more likely to get you a mouthful of abuse or a f-off than anything else

I’ve got to ask… what kind of pubs do you go to? Perhaps you should consider going to nicer ones? Try and avoid the ones with a flat roof

Would be an interesting experiment…

Get someone to go to a number of pubs, sit themselves down on a table next to some smokers and ask them politely if they could stop so you can enjoy your pint/food, then categorize responses as follows:

A> apologetic compliance “so sorry! I’ll put it out right now”
B> grumbling and muttering but put it out
C> tell you to “do one” but in a polite manner
D> tell you to “do one” in an impolite manner
E> get punchy

I bet you the overwhelming majority of responses would fall in the C->E range, if you’re lucky you might get a few B’s and the occasional A.

…and I’d take that bet most would be A.

And you know what, that’s one bet I would be happy to lose. And I’m sure the vast majority of the nice people on STW would be an A, but STW isn’t exactly representative of the general public.

bet that’s a cracking pub, don’t judge a book by it’s cover! 😆

I bet you the overwhelming majority of responses would fall in the C->E range, if you’re lucky you might get a few B’s and the occasional A.

You really do need to drink in better pubs.

sit themselves down on a table next to some smokers and ask them politely if they could stop so you can enjoy your pint/food, then categorize responses as follows:

Do you think that going and plonking yourself down next to a smoker and immediately requesting they extinguish their cigarette might, just possibly be construed as …. you know… a bit unreasonable? Maybe just a bit arrogant?

Have you actually been to many pubs?

Yes they used that line too when there was talk of banning it inside pubs.

And it was equally as legitimate back then.

You can dig up any figures you want but the original smoking ban destroyed the pub trade in the village I lived in. The weekday business dried up over night.

I bet you the overwhelming majority of responses would fall in the C->E range, if you’re lucky you might get a few B’s and the occasional A.

With science like that why even conduct such experiment?

Speaking as an occasional smoker who sometimes frequents beer gardens I personally wouldn’t (and don’t) choose to sit next to someone who is eating, I normally choose a far corner whatever.

If someone decided to bring their food to sit next to me and then asked me to put my fag out I wouldn’t have a problem. I might silently question their politeness in choosing to sit next to me, only to then ask me to cease some of my enjoyment to facilitate theirs. I might realise they had no choice as all other tables are full. Depends. Also depends on their attitude. But I’d be polite and put it out in most situations, no question if they seem genuinely polite. It’s all about respect isn’t it, it goes two ways.

One thing I am sure of is that your experiment is fraught with even more variables than assumptions. Some people can catch a whiff of smoke from 20 metres away and turn into raging Keith Pratt, yet have no trouble queuing for ten minutes by a smokey BBQ. There is evidently a social stigma attached to smoking, and plenty of prejudice/stereotyping which has quite frankly surprised me here today, even by STW standards 😯

binners, do the pubs you frequent still have sawdust floors and spitoons?

Yes they used that line too when there was talk of banning it inside pubs.
And it was equally as legitimate back then.
You can dig up any figures you want but the original smoking ban destroyed the pub trade in the village I lived in. The weekday business dried up over night.

Laws change for various reasons.
Sometimes the change benefits some businesses. Some times it has a negative effect. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have made the law in the first place. I put people’s health over profit myself.

amedias – Member
Would be an interesting experiment…

Get someone to go to a number of pubs, sit themselves down on a table next to some smokers and ask them politely if they could stop so you can enjoy your pint/food, then categorize responses as follows:

A> apologetic compliance “so sorry! I’ll put it out right now”
B> grumbling and muttering but put it out
C> tell you to “do one” but in a polite manner
D> tell you to “do one” in an impolite manner
E> get punchy

I bet you the overwhelming majority of responses would fall in the C->E range, if you’re lucky you might get a few B’s and the occasional A.i’d think you’d deserve an E for that! 😆

Do you think that going and plonking yourself down next to a smoker and immediately requesting they extinguish their cigarette might, just possibly be construed as …. you know… a bit unreasonable? Maybe just a bit arrogant?

One thing I am sure of is that your experiment is fraught with more variables than your assumptions.

I did say as an experiment! I did’t say it was a good one 😉

On the face of it I’d say it depends if there’s other available places to sit, but no I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask the person doing something unpleasant and harmful in social area to stop it if other people trying to also use the space don’t want to be impacted by it.

based on your comments about picking a nicer pub, I’m assuming even if some unreasonable arrogant person did that to you you’d be an A?

Does that not just confirm that its the right, considerate thing to do? don’t see how you can be both an A and consider the request unreasonable. If you thought it was unreasonable you’d surely be a B 😉

Speaking as an occasional smoker who sometimes frequents beer gardens I personally wouldn’t (and don’t) choose to sit next to someone who is eating, I normally choose a far corner whatever.

If someone decided to bring their food to sit next to me and then asked me to put my fag out I wouldn’t have a problem. I might silently question their politeness in choosing to sit next to me, only to then ask me to cease some of my enjoyment to facilitate theirs. I might realise they had no choice as all other tables are full. Depends. Also depends on their attitude. But I’d be polite and put it out in most situations, no question if they seem genuinely polite. It’s all about respect isn’t it, it goes two ways.

Exactly my point from earlier, you’re a nice considerate person who can consider the impact on others and act considerately.

But as we’ve already noted, regulation comes in because not everyone is as considerate as you and Binners may be, and you can’t ban inconsiderateness.

To be honest I wouldn’t sit down next to a group of smokers if I could avoid it, and if I couldn’t avoid it I’d probably go to another pub or place to eat, only if I’d already ordered and it was the only place to sit would I consider asking someone to stop, and I’d like to think I’d be able to do it politely too, in fact I’d feel embarrassed to have to ask.

amedias – Member
Do you think that going and plonking yourself down next to a smoker and immediately requesting they extinguish their cigarette might, just possibly be construed as …. you know… a bit unreasonable? Maybe just a bit arrogant?
I did say as an experiment!

On the face of it I’d say it depends if there’s other available places to sit, but no I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask the person doing something unpleasant and harmful in social area to stop it if other people trying to also use the space don’t want to be impacted by it.

based on your comments about picking a nicer pub, I’m assuming even if some unreasonable arrogant person did that to you you’d be an A?

Does that not just confirm that its the right, considerate thing to do? don’t see how you can be both an A and consider the request unreasonable. If you thought it was unreasonable you’d surely be a B the right thing to do is respect the first come first serve rule, not invade someones space and start dictating etiquette.

My fave Pub “like in the Whole Wide World” has a no smoking ban inside (clearly has too) and a Landlord optional outside one too. Has to be the best place, like eva.
It ain’t because there aren’t any “faggers”, nope it’s simply because it’s a bloody lovely place and sells it’s own exceptional beer.

Some of the locals are nice too… and I guess some of those smoke, just not here.

the right thing to do is respect the first come first serve rule, not invade someones space and start dictating etiquette.

I’d argue the right thing to do is to respect the health and environment of those around you.

Or does the smoker that got there ‘first’ trump the other people that arrive after, regardless of number?

It’s one of those things you just shouldn’t inflict upon others without their permission.

I think I’m starting to see why you may perceive pubs as a more hostile environment than most people do.

I think I’m starting to see why you may perceive pubs as a more hostile environment than most people do.

Not at all, the discussion has just focussed on pubs/beer gardens though hasn’t it because it’s one of the last places where people can smoke in close proximity to others, and with food and drink around, hence the friction. Outside dining areas were also mentioned but there seems to be less outrage about that?

It’s not the environment that’s hostile at all, it’s the inconsiderate people who make that environment unpleasant for non-smokers.

Parks I think is a different matter entirely as you don’t have the forced close proximity aspect, and it’s not part of a purchased service like at a pub.

If anything you should be more outraged at the comments about making smoking “abnormal” and demonising it, which is something you’ll have noted I’ve made no comment about as I don’t really agree with it, and I’m not in favour of total bans or anything like that. I think you should be able to do whatever you want as long as it doesn’t impact on other people or affect their health so directly.

Those of us getting uppity about pubs and such are doing on the health and enjoyment grounds of that specific environment, and that’s more easily argued as having genuine merit especially where food and drink are concerned.

amedias – Member
the right thing to do is respect the first come first serve rule, not invade someones space and start dictating etiquette.
I’d argue the right thing to do is to respect the health and environment of those around you.

Or does the smoker that got there ‘first’ trump the other people that arrive after, regardless of number?

It’s one of those things you just shouldn’t inflict upon others without their permission.
I suspect you may well expect a number of E)’s in your life if that’s your view! 😆

But as we’ve already noted, regulation comes in because not everyone is as considerate as you and Binners may be, and you can’t ban inconsiderateness.

Don’t we have speed limits for the same reason?

I suspect you may well expect a number of E)’s in your life if that’s your view!

maybe, but if you think the right response to someone asking you to be considerate to other people around you who are sharing the same space is to get punchy then I’m not surprised you think that.

And you might have missed my other comments about how I’d consider that a last resort.

To be honest I wouldn’t sit down next to a group of smokers if I could avoid it, and if I couldn’t avoid it I’d probably go to another pub or place to eat, only if I’d already ordered and it was the only place to sit would I consider asking someone to stop, and I’d like to think I’d be able to do it politely too, in fact I’d feel embarrassed to have to ask

I know quite a few people who don’t go to pubs nowadays in the summer as you can’t sit outside without having cigarette smoke around you all the time

Presumably these (fictional) people had never been in a pub before the smoking ban ?

I know quite a few people who don’t go to pubs nowadays in the summer as you can’t sit outside without having cigarette smoke around you all the time

Sounds like you know some fun, ceraaaaaaaazy people. Must be party time time round their non-pub-attending houses on a weekend.

Do they often burst into tears or hide underneath furniture for no apparent reason?

Presumably these (fictional) people had never been in a pub before the smoking ban ?

They’re not fictional, I’m one, and so are a few other people I know, and my fiancée is very wary of it due to her Asthma. She can’t go running in the evenings for most of the week surrounding bonfire night due to smoke in the air setting her off, and we actively try and avoid places where smoke may be an issue.

The smoking ban coming in actually made going to the pub a much more frequent and enjoyable thing for us, and pubs don’t seem any less busy for it, just nicer places to be in general.

Presumably these (fictional) people had never been in a pub before the smoking ban ?

They probably had to sit shivering in the beer garden because of the stinking smokers inside. Fictional?

EDIT: Ah, I see amedias has explained that they’re not fictional at all. You ought to try and be a little less presumptuous.

amedias – Member
I suspect you may well expect a number of E)’s in your life if that’s your view!
maybe, but if you think the right response to someone asking you to be considerate to other people around you who are sharing the same space is to get punchy then I’m not surprised you think that.

That wouldn’t be my reaction at all. I’d judge whether a thought you were sound or a dick(this would be decided on how you asked me) and then decide whether I wanted to be nice to you or not after that.

Your complete unawareness of your ignorance is astounding though.

I’m currently sat in my local cafe bar with dd snoozing in his buggy. There’s a pint of Gem on the table. There are a few smokers sat outside on the terrace with a view of our classy high street with its charity shops, hairdressers, nail salons and chippies. It’s a busy road with plenty of slow moving traffic so I suppose they’re breathing in the shite from that too. And it’s raining. Frankly, it’s what they deserve.

Given the amount it costs, what is does to your health whilst on the planet, that you are likely to exit the planet early in a horrible way, that the majority of potential partners now wouldn’t be interested in you because of your habit and the public at large finds you socially unacceptable because of your habit I’ve come to the conclusion that to be a smoker as an adult in 2015 you have to have a bit of a mental health problem.

No. Addiction does strange things to the minds of otherwise normal people.

*phones social services*

I’d judge whether a thought you were sound or a dick(this would be decided on how you asked me) and then decide whether I wanted to be nice to you or not after that.

See that must be where we differ. It’s not a decision I’d have to make, I would be nice and considerate to the people around me regardless.

I can understand how you might be able to reconcile the impact vs reward of being a smoker yourself, but I can’t honestly understand how people can come to the conclusion that its acceptable or appropriate to inflict it on other people against their wishes in a shared space.

Given the amount it costs, what is does to your health whilst on the planet, that you are likely to exit the planet early in a horrible way, that the majority of potential partners now wouldn’t be interested in you because of your habit and the public at large finds your habit socially unacceptable I’ve come to the conclusion that to be a smoker cyclist as an adult in 2015 you have to have a bit of a mental health problem.

🙂

I’m currently sat in my local cafe bar with dd snoozing in his buggy.

Does DD know you’re using his login while he’s asleep? Who are you anyway?

vaping – I don’t want to smell or inhale that shite – so sod off to the same place as the smokers.

Really? My wife vapes (0% nicotine) – are you really saying that the barely distinguishable vapourising scent of water and vegetable-based toffee or melon drifting across the breeze* is equal to nicotine smoke, not to mention more alarming/offensive and injurious to you and yours than the stink and carcinogens from (variously):

the pub BBQ?
The frying oil and grease from the kitchens?
the road?
the pub car park?
the diesel particulates from the trucks that delivered your imported food?
your deodorant?

I call troll…

* I can’t even smell it 90% of the time indoors, sitting right next, neither in the car. When I do I say ‘oh…toffee’? The thought of even detecting it outdoors let alone finding it offensive takes a lot of work tbh. The vapour is gone by the time it travels a few feet.

…I would be nice and considerate to the people around me regardless.

That’s where it differs for smokers – their consideration ship has sailed years ago – the utter lack of self-respect they display is a good indicator for how to expect them to behave towards anybody else.

amedias – Member
See that must be where we differ. It’s not a decision I’d have to make, I would be nice and considerate to the people around me regardless.

Usually I agree, but if someones treating me with contempt, they get treated equally! Like i say it’d depend how you asked.

As Figure 8 shows, the UK’s smoking bans correlate more closely with the collapse in pub numbers than any other factor,

So this figure then?

It’s not exactly conclusive is it? Amazing to think that the smoking ban caused such a huge drop in pub numbers 25 years before it was introduced.

I’m talking about a certain type of preachy, whiney, sanctimonious type – the professional moaner – who thinks its appalling that the should have their enjoyment of the pub ruined by smokers, yet they never actually go to the pub anyway. probably because they’ve got no friends.

Oi. I’m a preachy, whiney, sanctimonious, moaner and I go to the pub every Thursday. And if the weather holds I’ll be sat in the beer garden tonight.

Does DD know you’re using his login while he’s asleep? Who are you anyway?

😀

You should see him asleep in his buggy the little thing. Butter wouldn’t melt…

deadlydarcy – Member
…I would be nice and considerate to the people around me regardless.
That’s where it differs for smokers – their consideration ship has sailed years ago – the utter lack of self-respect they display is a good indicator for how to expect them to behave towards anybody else.

Nonsense tbh. When I smoke i’m usually quite aware of others around me and try to minimize their impact. Example it’s not usuaul for me to get up and walk away from the table if i’m sitting in a beer garden. You’re generalising too much.