…and I refuse to believe that your lad stopped retaliating after *one* trip to the naughty step! Retaliation is an everyday part of the life of a toddler, it takes thousands of trips to the naught step and a bit of maturity to fix in all of us.

In his entire life, I can’t recall more than about 5 times I saw or heard a report of him hitting someone. Obviously I’d like to believe that’s due to the environment he’s been bought up in, but it could just as easily be luck, selective memory, denial, or he’s very good at hiding shit from us 😀

Of my two kids I have only smacked one once. It was on the hands when he was 3 and started playing with the gas cooker. I did it as it was dangerous (turning the gas on) and he hadn’t stopped from previous non physical punishments for doing the same thing.

It did work he never touched them again.

But it has never crossed my mind to do it again nor would I now they are older and have a better understanding of dangers and verbal communication.

I do agree that smacking should not be used as routine punishment but there is the odd exception.

Just a thought experiment for those of you who have smacked kids or think it’s OK.

Try replacing child with partner, and read your statement back, and see how it reads. If you have to, imagine your partner had some sort of reduced mental capacity, say dementia or a brain injury.

Phil

Perfectly fine to use force if it is in situations where life could bein danger.

I don’t think the law differentiates according to the part of the body.

I’m sure it doesn’t. Any contact anywhere is assault.

Sure, I would forcefully pull/carry my kids away from danger, and shout at them. As I would a partner who was putting themselves in danger.

Care to explain why you’d hit somebody in this situation? And what purpose it would serve? And, as per my thought experiment, why it would be different hitting one weaker party than another?

Really?
Walking/running away. I don’t care what that makes you think of me/my son. If rather he were safe.

I’m not judging you or your son, I simply don’t see how that is meant to actually work.
Quite seriously, if you saw a couple of youths kicking the shit out of a pensioner what would you say to him? Get up and walk away or hang on I’ll call the police?
What if it’s your son having the shit kicked out of him? Would you just stand there and try and reason with them?

<quote>
If someone tries to nick property from me then then meh, it’s material possessions. It’s not worth getting the shit kicked out of me for. It’s why my car keys are by the front door and the car is insured.

I really can’t see how in general keeps you or him safe?
If someone is going to steal your wallet or phone what makes you think they aren’t going to give you a good kicking anyway?

I respect your view, however I don’t respect the thugs who menace people and from experience they don’t even respect themselves or each other and they most certainly don’t repect you.
Why would you even try and bargain if someone say’s “give us your phone and we’ll not beat you up” ? Do you really think that will be an end to it, that they will just let you walk away?

Try replacing child with partner, and read your statement back, and see how it reads. If you have to, imagine your partner had some sort of reduced mental capacity, say dementia or a brain injury.

Imagine if you forced your partner to sit on a step for one minute for every year of their age of imagine if you banned your partner from going out for two days. Both would be illegal too. Which punishments do you think *are* acceptable to inflict on a partner and why?

(I’m not in favour of smacking kids but I thought I’d answer anyway.)

My example above had a 3 year old with an obsession for turning the gas cooker on. Shouting, time outs, toy bans didn’t work. Same if there about to put there hand in a fire the minor pain they feel means they are likely to recoil rather than resist you pulling them back.

Would I do it with a mentally impaired adult yes and more so as they would have the strength to overpower my attempt to pull them away.

Afterwards you discuss it with them explaining exactly why you did that. It’s not a hit and forget thing you need to explain why you did what you did and why it’s an exception.

Imagine if you forced your partner to sit on a step for one minute for every year of their age of imagine if you banned your partner from going out for two days. Both would be illegal too. Which punishments do you think *are* acceptable to inflict on a partner and why?

(I’m not in favour of smacking kids but I thought I’d answer anyway.)

Leaving them.

This is not an option with kids.

Edit- thinking about this a bit further, I would ask a partner to think about what they’d done for a few minutes – the purpose of “the naughty step” anyway.

Obviously banning them from going out isn’t an option, but if anyone (friend or partner) were doing things that I thought unacceptable, I would just have to make sure this didn’t affect me. In an extreme case I might report their behavior to the police, who might ultimately stop them going out for considerably more than 2 days.

Imagine if you forced your partner to sit on a step for one minute for every year of their age of imagine if you banned your partner from going out for two days.

This kind of stuff is happening all around you right now. Between two adults it gets called domestic abuse I think.

Given this is Scotland we’re talking about is there a danger that the natives could get a little confused as to which sort of smack they wont be allowed to give their spawn?

I just think you are wrong, I dont see how smacking helps. Its gone 30s after its done.

When I was a kid I was told “wait until your Dad gets home” …
That hour or whatever is what persists… I don’t remember my father ever smacking me in any sort of anger ever.

Once again scotlands socially liberal policies diverge further from Englands.

Yeaaay go Scotland

If someone hits my kid with a big stick am I to tell him to curl up and ask then nicely to stop whilst he’s still conscious?

Quite seriously, if you saw a couple of youths kicking the shit out of a pensioner what would you say to him? Get up and walk away or hang on I’ll call the police?
What if it’s your son having the shit kicked out of him? Would you just stand there and try and reason with them?

If someone is going to steal your wallet or phone what makes you think they aren’t going to give you a good kicking anyway?

This is where the difference between defence and retaliation kicks in and you are conflating the two. People are free to defend themselves by whatever means of opportunity are proportional to the attack in question. Always have been. Going after the mugger after the fact and giving them a kicking is not defence.

Using physical force to control behaviour is wrong. Using said force exclusively because you are older/bigger/stronger etc. is abuse if not outright bullying.

Imagine if you forced your partner to sit on a step for one minute for every year of their age of imagine if you banned your partner from going out for two days. Both would be illegal too. Which punishments do you think *are* acceptable to inflict on a partner and why?

It would depend on whether your partner has the mental age of a child. Although, if that were the case I would say there were bigger questions to be asked.

My mum used to smack me with the back of a hairbrush when I was a bad little mofo.

I’m now pretty much sans-hair on top.

Makes you think.

This is where the difference between defence and retaliation kicks in and you are conflating the two. People are free to defend themselves by whatever means of opportunity are proportional to the attack in question. Always have been.

I’m simply posing the question as to if violence is ever the answer as there seems top be some objection on the grounds that meeting violence with violence is never the answer.
You also skipped answering the question… so the pensioner is allowed to defend themselves but if I was to intervene then it’s retaliation by default since I’m not defending myself?

Going after the mugger after the fact and giving them a kicking is not defence.

That is a different question … I’m simply questioning “violence is never the answer”

Using physical force to control behaviour is wrong. Using said force exclusively because you are older/bigger/stronger etc. is abuse if not outright bullying.

Now you are contradicting yourself…. If the behaviour I wish to control is 3x 18yr olds kicking the shit out of a pensioner are you truly suggesting I can’t intervene based on the fact I’m over 50 and the pensioner can’t defend him or herself merely because they are older?
I don’t think that is what you mean … but that is the result of taking your words literally.

My main point however is can you/we/STW/society accept that the statement “violence is never the answer” is wrong.

You’re teaching both children that the answer to violence is violence.

I think I’m with Steve on this. Violence is rarely the answer but there can be exceptional circumstances.

For instance: I was bullied at school. I never fought back because, somewhat ironically perhaps, I didn’t want to hurt anyone (not that there was a great risk of that anyway). This went on for three years. It only stopped when I snapped one day and leathered him.

Simple questions have complicated answers, who’d a thunk it.

Try replacing child with partner, and read your statement back, and see how it reads.

My first reaction here was “ooh, good point!” but as an analogy it’s kinda flawed. The dynamic is different, with a partner you’re supposed to be equals whereas with a child you are in charge. I’m struggling to think of any situation where it would be appropriate to mete out some sort of “punishment” on a partner (unless they were into that sort of thing and consented, anyway).

I once smacked my oldest child when she was 5. We were in the street and she was flailing about and trying to run across a busy road. I still think it was deliberate on her part – obviously she did not understand the physical ramifications of getting run over, I was at my wits end trying to control her and walloped her on the legs, hard. She went dead silent and did exactly what I wanted. I regretted it.
My worry is that what is a very minor incident in both our lives could have become a court case over me smacking her.
The police are allowed to use reasonable force, when they decide, I think we should trust people to do so too. There are existing laws that deal with abuse etc.

I can’t imagine any scenario where I’d feel the urge to hit my kid. The love is too strong (blleurgh! but literally the case!).
He’s punched me and given me a dead arm a few times 😆

My mum knocked me off a stool and kicked me once when I was a kid – it was punishment for shouting F OFF! at her. Quite deserved in the scheme of things.

Imagine if you forced your partner to sit on a step for one minute for every year of their age of imagine if you banned your partner from going out for two days. Both would be illegal too. Which punishments do you think *are* acceptable to inflict on a partner and why?

In a telling off of my sun he insisted he was right.  I said I’d sit on the naughty step if i was proven wrong.  20 minutes later I honoured my agreement and spent 46 mins on sitting on the stairs during which I formed an appropriate apology to him.

No better demonstration than all things are equal imo

What happens if your child refuses to sit on the naughty step. I’m not advocating a wallop by the way, I just want to know how people deal with children that like to escalate their non compliance.
I think a ‘deliberate’ smack as a punishment is outside of my boundaries, but I think a necessary smack for safety is OK.

I “smacked” my daughter once, hitting her across the back of the hand

Smacking is a flat hand to the butt. Hitting a child on the head is *not* smacking!

He said hand. Not head.

interesting thoughts here.

The point about it being more about humiliation or fear is spot on. I used to get smacked on the hand or forearm by my mum (quite literally ‘a slap on the wrist’). One day, I was maybe 11, she shouted and demanded my arm to smack. I must have twigged at some point that it didn’t hurt much, so volunteered it with a sarcastic ‘go on then, see if i care’ vibe. She never smacked me after that – I later realised that she wasn’t actually hitting hard, and didn’t want to. Now I can’t remember how much it actually hurt. It must have hurt at some point. But mostly it was about the fear of being hurt.

My mum was brought up in a strict school in the 50s and 60s, and she and her siblings still talk with disbelief at how viciously the nuns used to beat them, and for what tiny transgressions. Violence, the fear of god, and public humiliation in church were all used to keep people in line.

She was also in her early 20s when I was born. A lot of parents these days have kids a bit later.

I don’t know what point I’m making. Probably a good thing that it’s banned. But I think a slap on the wrist could be appropriate if they’re being a danger to themselves or others.

What happens if your child refuses to sit on the naughty step. I’m not advocating a wallop by the way, I just want to know how people deal with children that like to escalate their non compliance.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/parenting/why-time-out-and-the-naughty-step-are-not-good-parenting-1.3594852

Therapeutic parenting has mostly been aimed at kid who’ve experienced extreme trauma in their lives, but there’s evidence that it works with all kids.

I’ve read about that before.
In the end I took all my lessons from https://www.bookdepository.com/How-Talk-so-Kids-Will-Listen-Listen-so-Kids-Will-Talk-Adele-Faber/9781848123090.
It advocates starting with empathy, seeing it from their point of view. I’m not that good at it mind, I keep forgetting. When I remember it works quite well.
I don’t adhere to the whole book, but the point about empathy is so powerful that normally communications flow easily so you can work the rest out. They are older now and you can reason with them. I found up to about 3years old very hard as we found it diffuclt to understand each others needs.

I think I’m with Steve on this. Violence is rarely the answer but there can be exceptional circumstances.

This is where I’m trying to go… the point is being able to recognise when and being able to teach your kids when.

For instance: I was bullied at school. I never fought back because, somewhat ironically perhaps, I didn’t want to hurt anyone (not that there was a great risk of that anyway). This went on for three years. It only stopped when I snapped one day and leathered him.

I think the irony is probably that simply fighting back would have stopped the bullying.
You don’t even need to leather em, or even “win”.

A while ago 3 blokes tried to rob me with menaces (pre mobile phones that long ago) so a punched one fully expecting the others to pile in…I didn’t even hit him very hard… his 2 mates ran off. It was like some comedy panto… I ended up chasing 2 blokes who were running away round parked cars… they didn’t even seem to give a toss about their mate.

What happens if your child refuses to sit on the naughty step. I’m not advocating a wallop by the way, I just want to know how people deal with children that like to escalate their non compliance.

I meant to ask the same question. Being a teacher must be nightmare these days, what do you do when a kid is disobedient then basically stands there going “what are you going to do about it, you can’t touch me”? Back when I was little the threat of parental involvement would have been sufficient to keep most kids in line, but would that type of kid be concerned about that even?

I think the irony is probably that simply fighting back would have stopped the bullying.
You don’t even need to leather em, or even “win”.

Perhaps. Who knows, this was 30 years ago now. I doubt very much that I’d ever have “just” fought back had the red mist not descended that day. Something inside me just went “enough” and I lost it, it was highly out of character.

Wait till they ban the removal of WiFi…

If you aim to never smack your children, then you’ll probably smack them about the right amount.
Seemed to work for me and my children.

Don’t have kids but i do remember being smacked a few times as a kid myself (born 72 so i guess mid-late 70’s) and i got the belt/strap at primary school a couple of times – didn’t bother me then and doesn’t bother me now apart from i never deserved the belt as i was only standing up to being bullied, i did use a cricket bat and there was loss of teeth but he **** deserved it. What was far more worrying was the fact my dad was away fishing at sea for 2 weeks at a time and the thought of dad (big hairy bearded 6ft fisherman…gulp…) coming home and being angry at me was **** terrifying, “just you wait till your dad gets home, he’s not going to be happy with you” and i would much rather have had a belt across the arse from mum and then have nothing to worry about.

Never smacked any kids but i did pick one up and threaten to bury him headfirst in his own shite then threw him back over his hedge for repeatedly throwing stones at my windows and leaving a 2ft bare metal scratch on my car, he’s now in his late 20’s and always apologies to me for being a little **** when he was small, i fix his kids bikes and they bake me rice crispy cakes.

The only additional part on the law is any form of physical punishment, the current law states that a temporary redness is classed as reasonable. Beating a child isn’t and the law is quite clear on that.

drac, can you re-phrase I don’t understand what you mean?
EG are you saying that the new Scottish law allows temporary redness, but not punishments? Surely a smack causing temporary redness is a punishment?

I meant to ask the same question. Being a teacher must be nightmare these days, what do you do when a kid is disobedient then basically stands there going “what are you going to do about it, you can’t touch me”? Back when I was little the threat of parental involvement would have been sufficient to keep most kids in line, but would that type of kid be concerned about that even?

From what I gather, they can be removed from the class using a restraint if causing serious disruption – as quoted from Nidirect.

This sounds reasonable to me, you have to, at some point learn that public disorder and refusing to co-operate will see you bundled into the back of a police van.

Yes. As the law currently stands a gentle slap of tap is fine if it at worse it leaves temporary redness.  Anything worse than that is illegal ie bruising. Scotland has now ruled that even a gentle slap is not Ok. It’s hardly a massive step.

Oh you edited your post.

Agree with the sentiment of the thread, however it must be a complete nightmare for parents with kids who rage out Drac. Even holding someone’s arm with some strength can bruise them.

I “smacked” my daughter once, hitting her across the back of the hand

Smacking is a flat hand to the butt. Hitting a child on the head is *not* smacking!

He said hand. Not head.

Thanks for pointing out my mistake Doris5k.

Sorry Scotroutes, I’m sending myself to sit on the naughty step to think about what I did and how it made you feel.

Oops. I wondered what the connection was as it didn’t seem to follow on from my post. 😊

Ok, that makes sense, thanks.

It’s hardly a massive step.

It is though, if you are faced with a child willfully running into the road or some other safety incident you risk breaking the law. I wouldn’t want to inhibit a mum from using force to save her child.

The thing is, I reckon that at least two of my kids could take me in a straight fight…..

We can still taser them though?

Of course. We’ve got new and better ones now if you want another go?