Hi all,

Question: I’ve got a -7 Ghost Whisperer. Lovely bag down to around -2, but lower it get’s a bit cold. I was looking at buying either a Sea to Summit Spark 0, which looks like a great bit of kit, but would combining it be a waste (given the fact the down would not be able to ‘loft out’). Would buying some sort of quilt be better?

Cheers,
FM

Silk liner might help? Never used one myself but have heard positive things.

I’ve got a Sea to Summit liner, which adds a few degrees. I find with sleeping bags, it’s always the upper range of ‘comfort’ which is accurate. So even though the Ghost Whisperer is sold as 7-, it’s really 0 to -7. I’m expecting temps to be around -10, but like the idea of having the flexibility of a ‘layered’ sleeping system. I think throwing over a decent down quilt would add a fair amount of warmth, but I’d prefer a summer sleeping bag, but primarily, it’s to boost my current bag winter forays.

Quilt is a good call and could be used on its own in Summer. I have a Cumulus 250 for that purpose.

As always, consider the mat as being just as important.

Silk liners are one of those things some say add a degree or two, others don’t. I’ve one but I can’t say I’ve noticed any extra warmth plus it seems to strangle you as you sleep!

Looking at the specs of the GW, it states a comfort limit of -7C so surprising that you are feeling cold at -2C, if it had been the Limit rating it would have been a bit more likely. What mat are you using?

I combine a PHD sleeping bag and a Cumulus quilt for the cooler months, though both are rated to around 5C, together they are good to -6C (at least, never had the chance to go further) which is fine for much of the UK. As you note you need to avoid the inner item being crushed so you need to buy bigger for the outer one. This article https://support.enlightenedequipment.com/hc/en-us/articles/115002770588-Quilt-Layering has a table (in stupid units) on what rating you can expect when combining bags/quilts. Even a 10C rated bag/quilt will really boost the bag, for reasons discussed in the article synthetic is good for this.

I am a big fan of liners and for me they make a significant difference. I also run a lot colder when sleeping than Whitestone appears to do and for me as an active sleeper a quilt is useless unless its a full on domestic double quilt.

Mats and in my case the foam tent footprint do make a huge diffence

Thanks –

my mat is an insulted Sea to Summit one. It’s not top rated for warmth but it’s decent enough. I was thinking about buying one of those metaltic looking foam pads to suppliment it. I’ve got a 4 season tent but I’ll probably be taking my 3-season MSR Hubba, as regretably I left my uber tent at home.

@whitestone: presumably you get in the bag and then wrap the quilt around it?

If you go down the two down bags route – should the warmer, heavier bag go outside and the thinner on on the in?

The GW is a fantastic bag but it doesn’t suit sidesleepers as I am, since they concentrated a lot of the down on the top and sides. Maybe a quilt is the best way to go for me…

Yes, into bag then quilt on top.

As for which to put inside, if you read the article I linked to it discusses condensation, specifically the dew point. You really want that as far away from you as possible so that it affects as little material as possible. For that reason I’d have the heavier, warmer bag on the inside with the lighter one around it. That way if it does get damp it’s not affecting your main insulation. This is why they suggest having a light synthetic bag/quilt as the moisture affects that less.

Not sure about the S2S mat, the usual recommendations are Exped Synmat or Downmat or the Thermarest NeoAir series. Several models to choose from, just choose according to insulation/bulk/etc. My wife has the Synmat Hyperlite and has used it at -16C in the Arctic without problem – we deliberately went out to bivy above the Arctic circle, you know just because you can!

Edit: I’ve also got a Rab Expedition sleeping bag, rated to -30C or so. I’ve used it about 20 nights in nearly 25 years! Having two lighter bags/quilts that you can combine according to conditions is much more economical.

Nanok do a down liner which adds about a season .also the down mat as above makes a huge difference to a cosy nights kip

I tend to wear a synthetic jacket (OMM in my case) if I want extra warmth, plus fleece hat, some leggings and socks. I’m carrying all these extra bits to wear on an evening anyway so figure it’s daft to then pack them away when I hunker down to sleep. Another option is a top bag if you’re too much of a wriggler for a quilt.

Not a fan of silk liners, I’d rather use a bivvy bag to increase rating, but the obvious downside is condensation. Never tried a top bag, probably addresses the condensation issue.

Hmmm, solid advice. Thanks

“Edit: I’ve also got a Rab Expedition sleeping bag, rated to -30C or so. I’ve used it about 20 nights in nearly 25 years! Having two lighter bags/quilts that you can combine according to conditions is much more economical.”

Yep, my thoughts exactly.

Ive pushed several sleepings bags outside their normal temp zones over the years, my experiences have been varied. Ive used a down liner bag inside the heavier(warmer bag) in the arctic at minus 10-20 region, it was obviously an improvement but not especially comfortable. A bag that fitted over the outside would have been better and warmer as has been alluded to above.
Around the 0c mark I have made a massive improvement over a 2 season bag with just a thin fleece blanket – bang for buck it was incredibly good. Basically the sort of fleece blanket you see in middle of Lidl so not even ‘proper’ polartec. Got the bag down to about -3 and probably cost about £3.50. That trip spanned summer/autumn/winter so it made sense to pick things like that up on the way. At the end it went into the clothing collection bin!

Ive pretty much always used a liner to keep the down bag clean, when i haven’t it is noticeably cooler but I would say maybe a half season added on at the very most and probably less. In truth it could even be psychological. On a windy night bivvy, I have used a silk over the outside and that was pretty good at keeping wind off, and to a certain extent damp. On longer winter trips the build up of damp in the down does become noticeable, its often hard to get it aired out so it is something worth thinking about.

For me the no.1 best thing to do for a warmer more comfortable night is to have a wash at the end of the day. It is such a big improvement come bedtime it is a rare day when I can’t manage it. If there is no water nearby you can wipe down with a wet cloth to get the sweat off. Tent or bivi up, quick wash then brew and or dinner. Toastiness guaranteed.

Another thing is go to bed warm! If you have got cold sitting about go and exercise for five mins so when you get into the bag your body is creating hot air to fill the bag

Mountain House Chile con Carne generates plenty of hot air I find. Certainly enough to fill the bag

Absolutely second having a wash and changing into dry clothes (merino long sleeve and long johns) before bed. Even if you don’t feel you have been working hard, the clammy sweat really chills you off, and a wet cloth/tarn dip works wonders.

What is a “top bag” ?

What is a “top bag” ?

Similar to top trumps – see Vader’s last post 😉

A Goretex bivvy bag will improve the insulation massively.

What is a “top bag” ?

Similar to top trumps – see Vader’s last post 😉

For full effect, use a sleeping bag with shoulder drawcords to lock in that funky warmth.

In seriousness, a top bag is a very basic bag of insulation on top and then just a sheet of material or straps/cords underneath that you can either use on its own as a very lightweight option or inside/over another bag to increase its rating.

So even though the Ghost Whisperer is sold as 7-, it’s really 0 to -7.

Tangentially, humidity has a significant effect on the insulation efficiency of sleeping bags. As air gets damper, it insulates less effectively – transmits heat mor eefficiently – so a bag that works at say, -25˚C in cold, dry, high altitude conditions, might feel cold at say, -10˚C in a damp Scottish winter.

The temperature ratings are based on a test conducted using a metal mannequin in carefully standardised conditions including humidity. I can’t remember what the standard humidity level is, but I suspect it’s not as damp as it would be on a typical UK winter day. There are all sorts of other variations too, but humidity tends to get somewhat forgotten and is a significant consideration for Brits.

So there you go.

@BadlyWiredDog thanks for that explanation.

I’d always thought it was because I was a wimp that I wanted a bag with a far lower minus rating than justified for the weather here.

Now I have an excuse. Ta 🙂

very true BWD. the coldest I have ever been camping was at just above freezing point in a corrie as the air was saturated with water. Far colder feeling than if it was actually below freezing

For a liner I’d consider one of these:

https://theomm.com/product/core-liner/

I’ve got a jacket in the same material and the warmth to weight ratio is remarkable.