Scotland was not lost ” a long time ago” and there is clearly a very volatile group in the electorate that does not have a huge party allegiance.

The issues for labour in Scotland are much the same as in northern england – its the actions of the labour mps and msps that caused the drop in votes and the way that westminster ignored the concerns of local people

This made me laugh…

Rebecca Long-Bailey wins the argument

You mean the ones that voted in pretty huge numbers for Eton-educated, descendant of royalty, professional bumbling toff Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson?

The candidate who vowed to carry out the result of a recent referendum rather than stomp all over democratic you mean?

Simplistic reductionist messaging may have been the sure fire way to win the last election, but voters may well be looking for something different in a couple of years time.

Scotland was not lost ” a long time ago” and there is clearly a very volatile group in the electorate that does not have a huge party allegiance.

The issues for labour in Scotland are much the same as in northern england – its the actions of the labour mps and msps that caused the drop in votes and the way that westminster ignored the concerns of local people

If a politician had come out with that kind of nonsense, you’d be calling them an idiot.

The issues for Labour in Scotland are quite obviously not the same as they are in northern England. The last time I checked, the SNP wasn’t fielding a candidate in my constituency.

The underlying issues are very similar IMO. the main differnce is there is an easy alternative to vote for but the reasons for the collapse are very similar in mayny ways

A feeling of not being listened to / being dictated to from afar.

The candidate who vowed to carry out the result of a recent referendum rather than stomp all over democratic you mean?

Maybe so, yes, but it still shows that they don’t care whether the person they’re voting for was born in Kensington or Kilmarnock; they vote for the party (well, let’s be honest, they vote for the leader) that has a coherent (god help me) ‘vision’ that resonates with them and the perceived competence to achieve it.

Oh god! I agree with TJ!

If the voters of northern England had been offered the same credible alternative as those in Scotland were with the SNP then the labour party’s electoral anhialation would have been exactly the same, years ago!

They’ve all just voted Tory FFS! In places where the large scale hatred of the Tory party is absolutely visceral with a good chunk of voters.

Starmer is going to have one hell of a job on his hands to win those voters back.

I’m sure that will be aided by the Tory’s failing to deliver on grand promises in these northern seats, using coronavirus as a handy catch-all excuse for continued austerity, but labour will have to offer a credible, believable alternative. Something it hasn’t done for quite some time

Very happy at the result. Looks like we have a sensible and credible opposition.
His career has been very impressive. I’m a fan anyway.

I’m sure that will be aided by the Tory’s failing to deliver on grand promises in these northern seats

Wishful thinking. Outside of Liverpool the northern idiots believe whatever they read in the sun and the daily mail. It’ll be Red Ed all over again with the added bonus of him being a posh lawyer from ‘that London’. If there’s one thing I’ve learned from a lifetime of living up north it’s that the chip on the shoulder is much stronger than any rational thinking about what’s best for them. The only reason Blair got away with it is because he pretended to be a northerner by supporting the toon. Starmer is a devoted gunner so he’s got no chance.

Starmer is a devoted gunner so he’s got no chance.

Sweet Jesus! Now you tell me.

Burgon is gone

phew!

Looks like some lucky village is about to get its idiot back

Though it is of course a tragedy that the Tony Benn Memorial University of Political Education will not now be built 🙁

How gone?

Will he be popping up occasionally in the media to open his mouth and undo the hard work of the rest of the Labour Party?

I think Jeremy has already bagsied that job.

Why stop now?

I’ll bet you a feast in Greggs that Corbyn does not do that! ) or did you mean me?

Andrew Gwynne gone as well. Starmer is having a right good clearout. Still no announcement of a job for RLB – my guess Starmer ( having said he would include her) offered her a post suitable for her skills and she declined wanting one of the big jobs

Simplistic reductionist messaging may have been the sure fire way to win the last election, but voters may well be looking for something different in a couple of years time.

The voters are not going to suddenly become more aware or more intelligent so Starmer needs to show good leadership along with some good policies for those that can read past “Get Brexit Done” while also condensing his goals down to “Get Brexit Done” so the majority will get it.

Just read the Youtube, FB and Twitter comments under his acceptance speech. Test the temperature. Burst your bubble.

Simplistic reductionist messaging may have been the sure fire way to win the last election, but voters may well be looking for something different in a couple of years time.

After the recession I mean austerity I mean Brexit/Nationalistic-fever I mean 2-year lockdown of recent times, we can look forward to global depression very soon, then (if history is any guide) rising Nationalism and war/s.

Human nature (when tested) seems to favour ‘shove thy neighbour’.

Alt concluded in a study of economic decline in the United Kingdom that economic distress makes the policy preferences of most voters less “generous,” or “altruistic,” rendering the political climate less hospitable for left‐wing parties, and Durr showed that voters in the United States tend to become more liberal in good times and more conservative in bad times

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/spsr.12007

Yes it’s a negative outlook. I don’t expect anything good going forwards. We’re basically chimpanzees playing dress-up, yet when the shit hits the fan the costumes tend to come off right quick. We’ve enjoyed (in the UK) enormous peace* and security on our Island for the last 4 decades. I’ll be taking some of those memories with me as supplies down this final road.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Peace

I’ll bet you a feast in Greggs that Corbyn does not do that!

You’re on! Usual pastry-based wager uncle Jezza? That egotistical, sanctimonious old duffer won’t be able to help himself! He’ll be chipping in with a running commentary, with his usual total absense of self-awareness

On that note, guess what I’m having for lunch? Debs has been to Iceland this morning, so I’ve got Greggs steak bakes and sausage rolls. Its the best thing that’s happened in weeks!! 😀

Still no announcement of a job for RLB

Excellent! Its looking good so far. A proper clearout of the deadwood

Excellent! Its looking good so far.

Except all it will do is provoke a war with the left. What’s the point in that? You say you want to the party to win and be pragmatic. That’s only going to happen with unity. That’s not going to happen if RLB is not given an important job.

Why reward failure? They had their chance. They were worse than useless.

Off you pop to the backbenches, where you belong. In Richard Burgons case, out by the bins

Has environment been announced yet? I’m still hoping RLB will get that, but it does look like he’s going for mostly “fresh” faces on the front bench (fresh for the public that is, most of the appointments so far seem to be people who’ve quietly been working on that brief for a while) so perhaps she’ll get a party role rather than a shadow minister brief. Back to the back benches would be a mistake… no announcement yet suggests they are discussing which role, and a no role result is only likely if RLB turns down everything she is offered.

Why reward failure? They had their chance.

Pragmatism is alive and well I see. All the protestations about doing what it takes to win were just hot air, because what you really want is to continue the internal divisions and internecine warfare on a point of ideology. Anyway, you’re jumping the gun. RLB will get a post, the alternative is the certain failure of Starmer’s primary goal to unify the party.

Again…. it’s not about ideology at all. Its about possessing a basic level of competence. Not too much to ask, you’d think, if you’re after the job of running the country.

I can’t see any reason why any of the architects of Labours worst election result for 85 years should retain a senior frontbench position. And that includes Long Bailey as she was heavily involved in writing a laughable manifesto which virtually nobody believed was credible

RLB has not been given one of the top jobs! Starmer is in a real position of power within the party right now. The left are not going to create much if any public fuss

Anyway, you’re jumping the gun. RLB will get a post, the alternative is the certain failure of Starmer’s primary goal to unify the party.

Binners and co dont want a united party. They want to purge the unbelievers and recast the party in their pure image.

The left are not going to create much if any public fuss

Yeah there is the advantage that unlike the moderates those of a more left wing persuasion arent so dogmatically purist and so would be more willing to compromise and support rather than spend their time trying to destroy.

You’re really not getting the concept of pragmatism, are you?

If you had a defender who’d nodded in two own goals in the last match before getting sent off, do you think they’d be on the team sheet any time soon?

Its not about ideology, its about competence

unlike the moderates those of a more left wing persuasion arent so dogmatically purist

Sorry, my irony meter just exploded 😂

Why reward failure? They had their chance. They were worse than useless.

Again…. it’s not about ideology at all. Its about possessing a basic level of competence.

Starmer was a prominent member of the shadow cabinet who contributed to two general election defeats. Can you explain why he gets a free pass?

We all know who the cabal were who were pulling the strings in the bunker.

Starmer certainly wasn’t one of the inner sanctum. It was common knowledge that he only ever got any concessions from the politburo when he threatened to resign.

Rebecca Long Bailey, on the other hand…

those of a more left wing persuasion arent so dogmatically purist and so would be more willing to compromise and support

The Socialist Campaign Group won’t be supporting the party any time soon. They’ll return to the back benches and keep voting against their party at will just as they always have. I’m not saying they’re wrong to do so, merely that they won’t be supporting. (If support means following the whip.)

We all know who the cabal were who were pulling the strings in the bunker. Starmer certainly wasn’t one of the inner sanctum. It was common knowledge that he only ever got any concessions from the politburo when he threatened to resign

Classic cognitive dissonance: when presented with facts that contradict your belief, disregard the facts.

Starmer was a prominent member of the shadow cabinet who contributed to two general election defeats.

Exactly. He architected the single policy which sent hundreds of thousands of brexit supporting voters in the north and west midlands straight into the hands of Boris Johnson. Labour’s brexit policy was the biggest failure of all. I don’t think anyone, Starmer especially, has clean hands when it comes to the election defeat.

I don’t think anyone, Starmer especially, has clean hands when it comes to the election defeat.

Quite. Do we purge everyone who served in the shadow cabinet since they last won in 2007? Or just the people Binners doesn’t like?

Locally, the leader, and lack of trust in thereof, was far more important than Brexit.

I’m hoping RLB gets a key role.

I have I idea what the purpose would be of seeking to pin the blame on RLB or Starmer for the failure of 2019. Only one name came up with people I failed to persuade to vote Labour… Corbyn.

Stuck record time… but the new team needs to include the best of the old team, and people who left or refused to serve under Corbyn, and entirely new faces.

Not giving RLB one of the biggest positions, but giving her another key role, would be the right move from Starmer… but RLB might turn that down still. We’ll see soon…

Binners and co dont want a united party. They want to purge the unbelievers and recast the party in their pure image.

This is exactly what needs to be done, you had your chance and blew it spectacularly causing so far five years of tory rule(excluding 2010-2015, That’s on Cleggs hands).

I still find it amazing that you lot even thought that Corbynism or whatever you wanted to call it, would have succeeded when the range of opposition against you was obvious.

Blair won by appealing to a wider range of voter, alot of them tory, Corbyn was never going to do that, But Blair also had help from a certain media outlet who at the time was feuding with Major, and with the voting system the way it is…he needed it.

The road back will be even more difficult now because of the abundance of fake news circulating through social media, 5G masts anyone? Most of the population in my view are poorly educated, lack critical thinking capabilities(Not common Sense, because it’s wrong in a lot of cases) and they “don’t do politics” even though politics does them.

The voting system must be the first thing that is changed, if the tories have to get more percentage of the vote, then they have to appeal to a broader spectrum of voter, instead of this narrow viewed Privatise everything, destroy the state, totally free market Tufton street lunacy which went unnoticed by those who voted for them “to get Brext done”. 44% of the vote and an 80 seat majority is unacceptable in a modern democracy.

The parties can only then become a broader church, or actually split into the four parties they always were, and coalitions can be formed, this also has the added benefit of introducing other parties that are not tory or labour into the equation…with potential issues.

The second thing will be dealing with the written media. You can’t have a free press when so much of it is concentrated into so few hands.

Starmer has to be seen to be clearing out the failures, while I do agree with the he’s “just another London elite”, it’s quite easy to counter this when you point out whose in Government.

The opposition now have to state the bleeding obvious and go full on attack for the next few years, there will be plenty of opportunity with this lot.

Outside of Liverpool the northern idiots believe whatever they read in the sun and the daily mail. It’ll be Red Ed all over again with the added bonus of him being a posh lawyer from ‘that London’. If there’s one thing I’ve learned from a lifetime of living up north it’s that the chip on the shoulder is much stronger than any rational thinking about what’s best for them.

some chips are larger than others……

The road back will be even more difficult now because of the abundance of fake news circulating through social media, 5G masts anyone? Most of the population in my view are poorly educated, lack critical thinking capabilities(Not common Sense, because it’s wrong in a lot of cases) and they “don’t do politics” even though politics does them.

there are people with PHds who are 5G conspiracy believers and seem happy to tell the world their thoughts