Sir! Keir! Starmer!

He suggested the shutdown, one week of which would coincide with schools’ planned half-term break later this month, could be used to upgrade the UK’s beleaguered test-and-trace system. The Sage minutes said test and trace was having only a “marginal” impact on the spread of the disease.
The Guardian Today newsletter: the headlines, the analysis, the debate – sent direct to you
Read more

Starmer suggested schools could remain open, but many other businesses would close. “It would mean only essential work and travel. That everyone who can work from home should do so. Non-essential offices should be closed. Household mixing should be restricted to one household except for those who’ve formed support ‘bubbles’. And all pubs, bars and restaurants would be closed for two to three weeks – but compensated so that no business loses out because of the sacrifices we all need to make. It should also mean the UK Parliament moves to remote working,” he said.

Starmer called on the prime minister to face down lockdown sceptics in his party, and said Labour would lend him the votes he would need to get the measure agreed by the House of Commons.

“You know that the science backs this approach. You know that the restrictions you’re introducing won’t be enough … So act now. Break the cycle. If you do you will have the votes in the House of Commons. I can assure you of that. You don’t need to balance the needs of your party against the national interest.

Boris Johnson is a joke as PM and SKS doesn’t look a better option to me.

I’m not wild about Starmer but how can you say he doesn’t look a better option, by a country mile? I really don’t get it. A highly successful and principled lawyer/DPP vs a reckless/feckless ‘journalist’ chancer sacked for lying on more than one occasion.

I’ve got houseplants that could do a better job of this than Joris Bohnson.

I doubt that at the start of a global pandemic Kier Starmer would have been dodging Cobra meetings, going on repeated holidays, then boasting about having walked around a hospital ward shaking hands with everyone who had Covid.

Instead, he’d have taken it seriously.

It makes you wonder where we’d be now if we’d have had SKS in charge instead of that lazy, feckless ****-wit in February

binners
Instead, he’d have taken it seriously.

I think that’s the crux of it

If I’ve got this right, Captain Hindsight:

– has criticised the government for both following and not following the science
– wants a national lockdown because that’s following the science – even though the WHO have warned against this approach only this week
– has criticised the government for not consulting the regions and tailoring the plans – but is now proposing a top down national lockdown with no advance consultation with those same regions
– has criticised the government for not protecting jobs but now proposes to shut down all areas of the economy even in the areas where the rate of transmission is under control. And also hasn’t got a clue how much this will cost.

It seems to me that Sir Kier is just playing schoolboy politics – for all the talk of constructive opposition he’s doing the exact opposite.

All in all pretty disappointing- effective opposition is the bedrock of our democracy and we’ll clearly limp on as we are for a while longer.

Brilliant press conference by Starmer. The SAGE report finally gave him the chance to properly expose the incompetence of the government and propose a realistic alternative without it looking like simple political point scoring. Offering to support the government if they take that option and provide the support it would need.

I was beginning to wonder if playing the long game was going to be all he ever did, but he waited till he had enough rope to hang the government with.

He’s convinced me he could be a decent PM at least.

“If only this guy was in charge.”

I find labour just come across as trying to score political points – Corbyn did it – and now Starmer seems to do from what I’ve seen.

You do realise they’re politicians don’t you? Like Boris and his mates, or any other politician for that matter, haven’t tried to ‘score political points’?

or saying we need to spend more when we have a deficit rapidly going the wrong way.

Economically illiterate as well as politically illiterate, you’re not doing well here.

I voted Lib Dem

It all becomes clear.

^^^^

Careful, daz. You’ll be sticking up for Starmer next…

The only annoying thing about it is that now he has laid out what is the correct way forward, the typical response of this government is to double down and ignore this option even longer, simply because it will look like they have caved to the opposition.

BBC article ‘senior government source’ says ‘Starmer is shameless opportunist’.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54528807

**** me Cummings accusing Starmer of opportunism… 😂

The only annoying thing about it is that now he has laid out what is the correct way forward, the typical response of this government is to double down and ignore this option even longer, simply because it will look like they have caved to the opposition.

If you rely on ‘image’ and ‘style’ over substance then this really is the logical course of action.

Johnson and his ilk have no actual substance whatsoever. Just bluff, bluster and bullshit whilst they enable their mates to make the heist of a lifetime. Then it’s off into the sunset.

And ‘we’ voted for it.

F***’s sake.

**** me Cummings accusing Starmer of opportunism…

Post-truth = post-shame.

Nothing should be surprising about all this.

I’m not wild about Starmer but how can you say he doesn’t look a better option, by a country mile? I really don’t get it. A highly successful and principled lawyer/DPP vs a reckless/feckless ‘journalist’ chancer sacked for lying on more than one occasion.

Don’t forget conspiring to get a reporter assaulted, openly racist, known to have had the odd affair and can’t even tell people how many kids hes got. We can also throw in appointing a homophobic misogynist as a trade negotiator if you want too. i mean he sounds like a right top bloke just who i want running this country /sarcasm

As far as I can see, Starmer is quite happy to support the things the govt do/propose that make sense, and call them out on all their crap decisions and incompetence. Hardly his fault that there’s been far more of the latter than the former.

And I don’t get why people want to know what his policies on this, that and the other are right now. It’s about as relevant as what my policies are, neither of us can implement them. In 4 years time circumstances will be very different and his policies to deal with whatever they are will be relevant at that point. If he doesn’t have any by then he can be rightly criticised for it.

**** me Cummings accusing Starmer of opportunism… 😂

And in the Guardian article Johnson is quoted as telling the 1922 Committee that Starmer is careering about like a broken shopping trolley. I thought for a moment it was a Guardian typo.

Careful, daz. You’ll be sticking up for Starmer next…

As someone who voted for him in the leadership election that shouldn’t be entirely surprising. I actually think it’s a political masterstroke, in one action he has put himself on the right side of the covid debate (not that he was ever on the wrong side), shown his party that he’s up for a fight with Boris rather than agreeing with him, and has demonstrated that he’s willing to take bold and responsible action in a crisis, even though it may make him unpopular in some quarters, showing leadership where currently there is very little. Very, very, well played I’d say.

Very, very, well played I’d say.

Some more wonderful analysis on the thread that just keeps on giving.

Politics is bascially like Top Gear, I think we’re all agreed on that now.

The idea that Sir Keir Starmer, Knights Commander of the Order of the Bath, should be banging on about ways to improve people’s lives is quite frankly infantile.

Policies are best left until a few weeks before an election. In the meantime, we have four more years to contribute hilarious banter and brilliant analysis to this glorious threat.

Bravo chaps!!! Let’s get it to 100.

Very, very, well played I’d say.

I agree with Dazh.
I should stop calling Starmer boring now, shouldn’t I? Sorry.
He’s serious, and in the current situation, that’s clearly what is needed.

MoreCashThanDash
Full Member
Brilliant press conference by Starmer.

Pretty much what I thought.

Just wish the next general election was a few years sooner. Ah well.

Best the Tories own this (and Brexit) **** storm anyway.

Premier Icon
dazh
Full Member

I find labour just come across as trying to score political points – Corbyn did it – and now Starmer seems to do from what I’ve seen.

You do realise they’re politicians don’t you? Like Boris and his mates, or any other politician for that matter, haven’t tried to ‘score political points’?

or saying we need to spend more when we have a deficit rapidly going the wrong way.

Economically illiterate as well as politically illiterate, you’re not doing well here.

I voted Lib Dem

It all becomes clear.

Ah, an arrogant labour member (no pun intended) who thinks the pot of money is endless and we should just spend spend spend.

I’ve already changed who I’ve voted for in the last election in the hope of avoiding the 2 biggest traditional parties, both who I’m not keen to see in power right now. That said the Brexit disaster is looming and no-one could save us from that cock up now really.

Starmer backing scientists over Johnsons indecesions is common sense 😜

Careful, daz. You’ll be sticking up for Starmer next…

It’s possible to support Starmer, with reservations, whilst also believing that Corbyn is not the devil incarnate.

should be banging on about ways to improve people’s lives is quite frankly infantile

He has been. You must have been asleep. Labour have been strong on calling for the necessary ongoing support for workers in closed sectors, those isolating for TTI reasons, and the vulnerable. How the government does or doesn’t step up to the plate and use government spending to save jobs, maintain incomes and keep people safe, is the biggest political question right now… but is also about a longer term question… what is government for? To improve the lives of all? Or not?

He has been. You must have been asleep.

You’ve just repeated it and I still haven’t got a clue.

joebristol
Full Member

Ah, an arrogant labour member (no pun intended) who thinks the pot of money is endless and we should just spend spend spend.

Nobody thinks it’s endless. The question is just how much you use.The tories do shake the magic money tree too, they just try and hide the fact, and throw it around as an insult against Labour despite doing it themselves.

Right now, borrowing and printing money are basically the two things that can get us through the pandemic without completely and I mean completely **** the country. There are entire sectors dying, sectors that in every other year make money. The risk of huge unemployment grows daily, which leads to crashes in spending and large scale lending default, which is a vicious circle. Rishi Sunak knows that very well, because it’s the tool he’s already used to good effect to get us this far. It’s also the tool that got us through the financial crisis. Unlike most chancellors, he’s a genuine economist, he understands the levers.

The problem is, he can’t admit it- because his party is against public spending and uses fake arguments about “balancing the books” to support that.

If he was to admit that actually, inflation is low and borrowing rates are low and that we can and should use both far more, then they know they’ll never be able to stop, and never be able to do austerity again, or justify cuts and fire sales with “balancing the books”. The lever he should be pressing, has an “out of service” sign on it purely because they know that when they push it, voters will be upset.

The problem here is entirely political and entirely Tory. They’ve painted themselves into a corner where they’ve spent years lying to convince the public that the best tools they have, don’t work. Now they desperately need to use those tools, and literally the only reason not to is because of that lie.

Yes printing money causes inflation. CPI is 0.2%, literally 1/10th of the government’s target, and has been well below that target on average for the last 5 years. Economists have spent a lot of the last few years worrying about all the mad shit that happens if you flip into deflation for any length of time- we’re within inches of that again. And you think we can’t print some money?

(Also, remember that inflation is only really a problem when it outstrips earnings. Tories like to keep earnings low, so they also have to keep inflation low. But in the depression that we’re probably about to have, earnings fall, so no amount of keeping inflation low, will keep inflation on the same level as earnings. The only way for low inflation to still work for the country, is to keep earnings high- basically with things like bailouts, stimulus, UBI, furlough, civil works projects, etc.)

Borrowing? The bond yield rate is 0.234%. If you can’t borrow money at .234% and use it to make more money than it costs, you shouldn’t be running a corner shop. Any chancellor that actually believed that, equally couldn’t be trusted with tax revenues, because they’re admitting they just don’t know where to spend money at all. Of course, Rishi Sunak doesn’t believe it, nor does any tory with half a brain. He just doesn’t like the reality.

Which is, he has to borrow. He has to print money. He has to increase public sector spending and probably benefits. Nothing else will work. But also, he can’t, because of the self-harming and country-harming politics of the tory party.

Forgive me – I’m not a political big-hitter but I am a healthcare worker who’s pretty **** cross:

cheddarchallenged
Full Member

If I’ve got this right, Captain Hindsight:

<YAWN> – straight outta facebook ??

– has criticised the government for both following and not following the science

Not sure what you mean? It’s pretty clear that the govt delayed following “the science” in March. ALthough they eventually did it, lockdown was too late and things like pub closures telegraphed (pun intended) by Boris several days in advance, leading direclty to mass piss-ups/infection events just before lockdown.
That indecision (or bloody-mindedness) likely cost huge numbers of lives, billions to the economy and many extra weeks of collective misery for people across the nation

– wants a national lockdown because that’s following the science – even though the WHO have warned against this approach only this week

You really can’t take this one aspect of a series of comments from WHO in isolation. For a start they were clearly talking about prolonged lockdown rather than a fire-break (personally, I don’t think it’s a great option but may just be good signalling to the nation’s self-possessed virus-denying arses in areas outside the current plague-villages that the summer fun is over for us all). They also said that GOOD distancing, hygiene, mask-wearing and effective test/tracing systems were essential. Hands up who thinks UK’s got those covered.

– has criticised the government for not consulting the regions and tailoring the plans – but is now proposing a top down national lockdown with no advance consultation with those same regions

As above, “couple of weeks” to reset things (including attitudes in particular) isn’t the same thing at all

– has criticised the government for not protecting jobs but now proposes to shut down all areas of the economy even in the areas where the rate of transmission is under control.

It’s that “couple of weeks” again

And also hasn’t got a clue how much this will cost.

WHo cares ? How much will NOT doing it cost ? Last time it was MASSIVE, monetarily and in human terms

Also, you don’t have to know how much it costs, to know it’s a good idea. I don’t know how much finishing the rustproofing on my car is going to cost, but I know it’s a good idea because it’s cheaper than having my car dissolve and having to get a new one. It’s that sort of thing- saving an economy is always going to be cheaper than going without one for a few years and then trying to build another one, which seems to be the Tory plan.

who thinks the pot of money is endless and we should just spend spend spend.

Hate to correct you but as a nation we create our own money, by definition the pot is endless. What’s not endless though is our ability to spend it. As Northwind alludes to above, the main limitation on how much we can spend is the productive capacity of the economy, as indicated by the rate of inflation. Currently inflation is very low and in danger of going negative. In that scenario the govt can print and spend as much as it likes. The pertinent question is not how much, but why not?

Starmer backing scientists over Johnsons indecesions is common sense

The other masterstroke of Starmer’s call for a short lockdown is that it’s almost certainly going to be necessary anyway. The optics of Boris doing another u-turn and implementing what Starmer demands is going to be one of the most stunning political victories of recent times. When people ask (as I have many times) what successful opposition is, I can’t think of a better example.

But it won’t “reset” things will it?

We know that because the last 3 week lockdown ran to 3 months. So we have another lockdown, the numbers don’t come down and then what, we do another 3 weeks? And another? We can easily add another 1/2m job losses to the pile and we would have another 7 months of winter to get through.

The other reason we know the lockdown would be disastrous is because Labour told us so. In fact, they told us so only 2 hours before Kier said we needed a lockdown when John Ashworth (shadow health Secretary) said the following in a House of Commons debate this afternoon:

“ But we also know that a full national lockdown stretching for weeks and weeks, like we had through April, with a rule, effectively, of one-household contact—a rule of one, indeed, for some people—would be disastrous for society. Again, I do not believe that anyone in the House is proposing that.” (See Hansard today). Quite incredibly the Labour Shadow Health Secretary and his own Party Leader said completely opposite things.

So forgive me, Labour have in the space of 2 hours told us that to not have a lockdown would be a disaster and having one would also be a disaster. There’s covering all bases and … covering all bases.

And given the police have made it clear they are not willing to enforce the law it’s unlikely most people would comply any more than they did in April which in this part of the country was not very much.

This is like being on **** Facebook again.

So forgive me, Labour have in the space of 2 hours told us that to not have a lockdown would be a disaster and having one would also be a disaster.

Short ‘lock down’ ASAP… or we’ll be forced to have a long ‘lock down’ later. That’s the choice in front of us. Or perhaps, sadly, just behind us. Act now, or pay later. Johnson should have acted a week ago, if not before. By calling for him to get on with it, the lateness of action, and the cost of delay, is hung around Johnson’s neck. It is also a call for England to act as one, for us all to be in this together… in many seats in the North, that Labour have recently lost, the feeling that Johnson has abandoned them (already) is growing… and some nationwide action would be welcomed by many people there that feel unfairly singled out right now.

We know that because the last 3 week lockdown ran to 3 months. So we have another lockdown, the numbers don’t come down and then what, we do another 3 weeks? And another?

Actually cheddar your wrong on that
The last lockdown took as long as it did because the R number was so high (about 3) and we got it down to 0.5 (at that point a functioning test & trace system should be able to step in & help keep it surpressed)

R is about 1-1.5 now which should take about 3 weeks (it wouldve taken less than 2 when SAGE suggested it

Which is why both ainsworths comments on a long lockdown & starmers on a short one are right

The longer Johnson dithers & delays the longer the next lockdown will have to be

And
Starmer asked to see evidence that backs up rule of 6 & 10pm Curfew, we now know that there was none for that

It’s about time the opposition leader woke up and offered some leadership and opposition to this absolute disaster of a government.

He’s doing the right thing now.

But it is not like the government have only just started to make their errors.
They’ve been wrong, morally and scientifically, from the start.
He is tarred with eight months of support for this Johnson government, to keep his head down, play the long game.
Wonder how many lives could have been saved with effective opposition earlier?

None. Johnson has a 80 seat majority and has no inclination to listen to anyone outside his cabal.

Marcus Rashford stood up and made a difference.
Forced a change of direction, a U-turn.
Part of that cabal?

Rashford did a great job. And was backed by the Labour front bench. More moments like that would be very welcome. They need wider support than just Labour politicians though… or otherwise people will just moan about Starmer “playing politics”.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/keir-starmer-backs-marcus-rashford-plea-for-uturn-on-free-school-meals

What I find interesting, is that the “mainstream media” reported Starmer praising and supporting Rashford as a positive thing, but all the increasingly whinny left wing campaigning media (I’m left wing, but these outlets are increasingly becoming an embarrassment) used it to hammer Starmer as a failure.

The problem here is entirely political and entirely Tory. They’ve painted themselves into a corner where they’ve spent years lying to convince the public that the best tools they have, don’t work. Now they desperately need to use those tools, and literally the only reason not to is because of that lie.

I’ve not seen the situation expressed so succinctly and accurately as that. Brilliant work.

Quite incredibly the Labour Shadow Health Secretary and his own Party Leader said completely opposite things.

Quite credibly you’re talking utter mince. If this is the level of argument you can come up with (making stuff up) no wonder we have this government – we get the politicians we deserve.

The problem here is entirely political and entirely Tory. They’ve painted themselves into a corner where they’ve spent years lying to convince the public that the best tools they have, don’t work. Now they desperately need to use those tools, and literally the only reason not to is because of that lie.

Indeed. The Tory’s are prisoners of the ideology and dogma they’ve been parroting for years. The mantra of private = good, public = bad. Centralised control = good, devolved decisions = bad

Take test and trace is the prime example. When every single countries experience, all evidence, and every experts advice told us that to be effective T&T should be localised and in the hands of public sector regional health authorities.

Could they do that? NEVER!!!

Because that would go against everything they believe in. It must instead be handed to the private sector who will set up a centralised system and the decision making process devolved to management consultants from the golden city on the hill.

And look where its got us?

At some point, if we’re ever to get out of this situation, the present system will have to be abandoned in favour of a regional public sector approach

But they just can’t bring themselves to do it. No matter how many die as the economy collapses with a system that has utterly failed, they still desperately cling on to their utterly discredited neoliberal dogma.