Sir! Keir! Starmer!

I can’t see why anyone would want some kind of ‘performer’ at the moment. When you look at the sorry state of the great performer and court jester himself.

Not looking good, is he? Even he seems to realise that last orders has been called on that tired routine.

As the polls are showing, the country is looking for some sober, competent leadership.

The contrast between Starmer and Johnson grows more pronounced by the day

This may surprise some, but I completely agree with TJ on Starmer. Still sceptical on the policy front, and I have no idea why he’s allowing himself to be dragged into pointless internecine battles, but so far in general you can’t complain. Unless you’re a #starmerout nutter that is. They’re a tiny minority though so I don’t know why anyone is paying much attention to them. Same goes for Len.

You want a performance.

Read my posts again. I never said I wanted a performance. I want someone to show genuine anger, passion and leadership and I’m not getting that from Starmer.

You want a show of anger, so do I… but Starmer has to win over voters who see Labour as shouty angry lefty protestors, rather than an alternative government. I find him dull and lacking in charisma… but he has to win people over to the idea of voting Labour who haven’t done so in a long time. He’s doing a good job of that in a situation full of elephant traps (COVID and Brexit), and he keeps avoiding the traps set for him, much to the annoyance of the Conservatives, and a noisy few who think that he shouldn’t be doing that job, and should be selling the idea of upturning capitalism from behind a barricade instead. Your description of him is accurate I feel… but currently it plays in his favour, I hope.

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tjagain
Full Member

I have no time for Raynor. Dimwitted and a political liability

What makes you think she’s dim witted? What has she done to make you think that?

Johnson shows passion

No, he doesn’t. Talking loudly and making pointless use of random Latin phrases is windbaggery; it clearly continues to take in the hard of thinking but the rest of us stopped believing that shtick some time ago.

TJ – as for your comment

I have no time for Raynor. Dimwitted and a political liability

that needs some explanation; you are miles off the mark.
Don’t confuse your personal view with the political reality.

Edit – confused her a bit with Nandy – another who made pronouncements on Scotland based in ignorance that were far worse but Raynor has done the same – made announcements on Scotland based in complete ignorance that show she has no understanding of the reality up here. Patronising and hectoring and untrue

So whilst conflating Nandy and Raynor was stupid of me and Raymor was not as bad as Nandy she still showed poor political judgement and ignorance from her comments

Johnson shows passion

All Johnson shows is bullshit. Wd can all say how great it is going to be in 10 years time (when he is nothing to do with it anyway) but that is not passion that is just trying to sell a dream while he is actually responsible for most of the nightmare (Brexit and Covid response)

Read my posts again. I never said I wanted a performance. I want someone to show genuine anger, passion and leadership and I’m not getting that from Starmer.

That may well be what you want, but it’s what we all want that matters.

Outside of ‘some’ on the left, I’m not really seeing evidence that the electorate, on balance, wants a shouty Starmer. A shouty Starmer for all I know could just as easily weaken the opposition not give it credibility.

Is there any actual reliable canvassing on what the electorate want from the oppositions level of “anger”? Or as someone claimed above, does the electorate actually now want serious competence? I’ve no idea so they are questions not statements.

I think I have seen anger from Starmer, he’s just able to express it calmly (certainly far more so than I have the EI to do!)

I can appreciate this may not look angry enough at times, but I like the huge gulf between him and BJ and think it plays well on balance.

As has been said above by others, SKS and Labour may not be everything I want, but what I want must be tempered so that enough people are happy with what’s actually on offer that they can vote Labour.

I think that writing people off purely for their views on Scotland and the union is mirroring their perceived narrow-mindedness. I don’t think that their is anyone who’s views I agree with without reservation.

Starmer is pragmatic in his approach. He researches his facts, understands the reality, and deconstructs the shabby shambles week on week. Raynor and others, dare I even say Milliband?, will provide a bit of fire. As I said, I think it’s a good balance.

coyote – its not that I disagree with their views. Its that she spouted nonsense based on ignorance. Being prepared to make claims about something you are ignorant of is not a good trait in a politician. Its a political liability and shows the lack of understanding and political nous.

I despair for the labour party in Scotland but cant based on ignorance just makes it worse. English politicians spouting nonsense abut Scotland puts folk off voting for their party in Scotland.

Fair point.

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 41% (+2)
LAB: 38% (-1)
LDEM: 5% (-1)

via @YouGov
Chgs. w/ last week

— Britain Elects (@BritainElects) October 9, 2020

You do wonder how bad the Tories have to get…

I can appreciate this may not look angry enough at times, but I like the huge gulf between him and BJ and think it plays well on balance.

Don’t forget the previous Labour incumbent’s propensity for faux anger. At PMQ’s every single week, after a period of incoherent rambling, Jezza would build-up to his ten-second outburst of righteous indignation, delivered as a shouty rant.

This would then be tweeted out to the sixth form faithful who would all cream their silkies and retweet to their echo chambers with embarrassingly cooing comments about how great grandad was/is and some old cobblers about being principled and honest

The trouble was that when that same clip was shown to normal, grown-up voters, their initial thoughts were ‘just look at that nutter, shouting some spittle-flecked rant. He looks like the looney on the bus. What is he even on about?’

Not a good look.

It got to the point that, as he started to deliver his achingly predictable weekly tirade, the Tory benches would all loudly cheer it

They knew how effective angry ranting was and how it was perceived by your average voter.

Now its Boris who ends up resorting to getting all shouty, and he’s doing so because Starmer is getting under his skin by humiliating him by pointing out his amateurish, ill-prepared manner

I don’t know if you’ve noticed but when Boris loses it and starts shouting, if you look at Starmer he doesn’t even look at him. He looks down and starts writing notes, leaving him ranting. This obviously really, really annoys him even more.

Another good set piece speech from Starmer putting the boot into Johnson and co

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/10/government-bobbing-all-over-the-place-in-covid-response-says-keir-starmer

Doing nicely on the second part of his long game. He now is seen as competent so now he needs to show Johnson and co as incompetent and to get this firmly fixed in the national psyche.

No longer is Johnson the loveable rogue, he is the incompetent bumbling buffoon. PUblic image matters unfortunately in politics and Starmer is doing a great job of improving his image whilst destroying Johnsons

I think the opposite. I feel Starmer comes across as a weak bleater with no ideas of his own, simply a tactic of disagreeing with everything the Tories do regardless.

And he’s a leftie. And you don’t think much of any of them. What would a Labour leader need to do to win you over, and is there any Labour politician that could do that? Starmer has to win people back to Labour… but there will always be people that will never be won over.

What’s interesting is that both of the following memes are in full flow at the moment…

“All Starmer does is back the government”

“All Starmer does is oppose the government”

But both memes are prevalent only in groups desperate for him to fail from the start.

He’s doing better than I expected at this point, but he’s walking a slack line that he could fall from at speed at any time… …he needs to stay attuned to the worries of people he needs to win over, not the groups hoping that he trips up.

I think the opposite. I feel Starmer comes across as a weak bleater with no ideas of his own, simply a tactic of disagreeing with everything the Tories do regardless.

You do realise hes the opposition right? He’s backed the tories a few times when it made sense but its not his to back them its his job to point out what they are doing wrong and hold them account.

Boris wants to tell the country all Keir wants to do is disagree and hes not doing enough support what the gov are doing. they did the same to Ed called him dull, boring and depressing.

I fully understand he is the opposition and I really really hoped he would prove to be a worthy opposition to the Tories because it is required. But he’s just turned out to be a bleater and just seems weak. trotting out the same old “we don’t agree, you’re utterly rubbish blah blah blah”

He fails to put forward great or meaningful alternatives which is what a great Labour leader should do and would win me over. Not to Labour, just to the idea that there is a worthy opponent across the table from Boris.

Labour under Blair was better, just with a slimy greasy underhanded self serving deceitful **** at the helm.
As an aside lol.

you could add lazy feckless racist **** and you would have described the current “captain”.

I haven’t seen Starmer really disagree with the Government at all.

He tweaks their output every now and again but he didn’t do much opposing on Schools and Unis. He’s had a little go at furlough but offered no ideas of his/their own. Mentioned exit strategy a few times.

I’m not seeing this leftie thing either in any way shape or form. I’m seeing an establishment leader currently.

What’s with the hard-on at PMQs – Johnson was always a bumbling idiot before PM it didn’t work against him when being elected.

Only the Guardian and a few on here seem to thing PMQs is evidence of winning something or other.

When Labour start reframing the debate about Covid with their own ideas then they might look like an opposition.

I fully understand he is the opposition and I really really hoped he would prove to be a worthy opposition to the Tories because it is required. But he’s just turned out to be a bleater and just seems weak. trotting out the same old “we don’t agree, you’re utterly rubbish blah blah blah”

He fails to put forward great or meaningful alternatives which is what a great Labour leader should do and would win me over. Not to Labour, just to the idea that there is a worthy opponent across the table from Boris.

It’s not you he needs to win over, it’s people who’ve voted labour in the past and need convincing to do so again.

. He now is seen as competent

Source?

No longer is Johnson the loveable rogue, he is the incompetent bumbling buffoon.

It doesn’t matter, though us Londoners could have told the country that and saved the rest of you a lot of trouble.

He fails to put forward great or meaningful alternatives which is what a great Labour leader should do and would win me over.

Alternatives don’t really matter at this point.

When Labour start reframing the debate about Covid with their own ideas then they might look like an opposition.

Which would be pretty meaningless at this point.

The reality is we have four more years of this, and once the withdrawal agreement expires at the end of this year. its going to get far, far worse. Boris’s only value at this point is he is a very easy target to attack, something the tory backbenchers have cottoned onto. It’s the dynamic duo behind Boris, the two who f*cked the education system in 2014 that have to be dealt with.

There’s not much point Starmer pointing out meaningful alternatives with four years to go, covid will pass, its legacy and how the tories deal with it in the next few years will be the abundant hunting ground for Labour, the tories are already showing what their ‘policies’ on that front are going to be.

Someone spoke about Blair…he had media allies in the form of news international, there are no media allies this time.

If and when Labour start really gaining the upper hand at the time when it actually matters, the opposition will get far, far nastier…the trump playbook will be used.

I also got to stop saying the tory party, as they are not anymore…the are the English national party.

They aren’t though are they ?

They aren’t though are they ?

They’re much worse than that. The current tory party represent the last act of the moneyed elite doing everything they can to grasp what they can from a collapsing economy and society. They’ve abandoned any pretence of acting in the interests of the country at large, or being a competent government, and instead are pursuing a scorched earth policy to make as much money as they can for themselves and their friends before it all goes tits up thanks to brexit and covid. And then they’ll be off into the sunset to spend the next 30 years on a beach while every one else struggles to keep their heads above water. They are a venal, corrupt, amoral, grasping bunch of c****, and anyone who supports them should have a long hard look in the mirror.

They aren’t though are they ?

They really are. They’re just UKIP without Farage. Priti Patels attitude to immigration actually makes UKIP look quite cuddly.

We have a government of nasty nationalist populists, with a sideline in disaster capitalism. This isn’t a Tory party in any recognisable historical context

Anyway… back on topic. There’s now massive anger in the north to how we’re being treated. I’m interested how much of the political opposition is now being coordinated with Labour Central office

Andy Burnham is playing a blinder

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/blistering-rage-northern-leaders-locked-19084628

They aren’t though are they ?

That comment says more about you than anything.

There’s not much point Starmer pointing out meaningful alternatives

So we suffer the venal incompetence of this government presiding over life and death decisions and wait for four years before raising a protest? Blimey, enough good suggestions, based on verifiable data, have come from Independent Sage which could be employed to meaningfully oppose with practical constructive outcomes. IndieSage also has (a somewhat more deserving) ‘Sir’, they’re hardly a bunch of anarchists.

He’s probably lost interest by now but Andy Burnham would be a much more inspiring leader of Labour than Starmer, IMO. I’ve met him and heard him speak in person and he was impressive.

So we suffer the venal incompetence of this government presiding over life and death decisions and wait for four years before raising a protest?

Short of a revolution, we’re stuck with it. These lot have ‘taken back control’. They’re not about to surrender it now, no matter how many die

Nah, they would have to make concessions, however it was dressed up, under pressure (which they’re not from Starmer) of events. They will have countless little schemes in the hope of keeping people from striking or off the streets and blaming others for their own misdeeds.

Andy Burnham is forever tainted by playing the race card in the Mayoral election and is no leader. He is a wethervane politician.

sorry – IMO he would have been a disaster. anyone prepared to play the race card is unacceptable.

So we suffer the venal incompetence of this government presiding over life and death decisions and wait for four years before raising a protest?

Have you not noticed that Starmer and the mayors are ramping up the pressure on Johnson? today in the papers marks IMO a serious ramp up of criticism and of offering alternatives. they have already forced some movement towards getting test and trace into local public health bodies

Andy Burnham is forever tainted by playing the race card in the Mayoral election and is no leader.

I don’t necessarily agree with what he said but I don’t think it was quite how it was portrayed. I think he is/was genuinely trying to listen to what his constituents were getting upset about, and not just dismiss them all as racists. I struggle with that tbh but I don’t think it was as cynical as you suggest.

Also, I’m broadly in favour of free movement and certainly in favour of staying in the EU but let’s not pretend immigration is issue/consequence-free.

All irrelevant now anyway. I think Burnham would have been much more popular in the so called red wall though.

but let’s not pretend immigration is issue/consequence-free.

Nope – its almost 100% positive with no real downsides

sorry IMO it was a very cynical playing of the race card and quite disgraceful

That comment says more about you than anything.

Yeh I get that a lot on this forum. Hope the superiority makes your Sunday better for you.

Everyone’s woes are caused by a Tory somewhere, doing something.

Thats why they blitzed Labour, and will likely do it again if weak boy stays leader.

They one by control of the press and media and our crap electoral system. Less than half the population voted for them