Viewing 40 posts - 21,081 through 21,120 (of 21,650 total)
  • Sir! Keir! Starmer!
  • MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    I thought last night’s QT started well – the Labour representative (Stella Creasey?) got in first to say how bad it had made the Commons look, shouldn’t have descended to a party political pantomime, and made this weeks sacrificial junior minister reluctantly agree with her.

    Then I fell asleep, tbh.

    Twodogs
    Full Member

    My comment abou you saying weird stuff was prompted by

    Yup, 40,000 deaths and the whole thing was turned into a farce by Starmer.

    I am sure that he is very pleased with himself.

    BruceWee
    Full Member

    that’s not be really happening though starmer is creeping back up as Sunak continues to sink

    Your graph is on one specific question, keeping promises (I mean, if you are struggling to beat Sunak on keeping promises then just throw in the towel).

    Overall net favourability paints a different picture:

    Screenshot 2024-02-23 093627

    nickc
    Full Member

    I thought last night’s QT started well

    My mum was in the audience. Fame (by association at least) at last

    Then I fell asleep, tbh.

    So did I, don’t tell her.

    stumpyjon
    Full Member

    Ernie you’re at again although this time you’re having a pop at MCTD this time. As for people needing to get in the real world I think it’s you who could with stepping away from the keyboard and getting a breath of fresh air.

    We can see how passionate you are about the palestinian’s terrible situation but unfortunately that’s not typical of the average voter. If they really knew what was going on they might be quite horrified but most won’t be following it in any detail and will be significantly more worried about issues that directly affect them at home. That’s human nature, even more so in post Brexit, post Johnson times. Arguing anything else isn’t really very credible.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/22/the-guardian-view-on-parliamentary-chaos-to-err-is-human-to-self-correct-is-to-learn

    I am not generally a massive fan of Guardian editorials, and there are a couple of points which in this one which I might not totally agree with, but it does imo make quite a few very good points, eg

    There is also a lesson here for Labour’s Sir Keir Starmer. He ought to rethink his strategy of adopting positions unpopular with his party’s base under the cover of big poll leads. In trying to duck an embarrassing vote, Labour increased the chances of Sir Lindsay being replaced by a speaker from the Tory benches.

    nickc
    Full Member

    and the fact that like a growing number of people I believe in a free democratic and secular Palestine

    You know that if secular Palestinians tried to set this up, one of the forces against them would be Hamas, right?

    timba
    Free Member

    ? was this sarcasm??

    The SNP motion and amendments from Gov and Lab all included a ceasefire, different interpretations and conditions certainly, but when you’re in the middle of a conflict you only care that it stops.

    A complete vote by MPs would be a stronger signal here and elsewhere than complete farce

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Also what’s Hoyle on about with a Terrorist attack?

    I suspect he’s referring to 22 March 2017.

    But a number of attacks have been stopped since then.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    My comment abou you saying weird stuff was prompted by

    I am absolutely certain that, initially at least, Starmer was extremely pleased with himself concerning how things had panned out with the SNP ceasefire motion.

    His number one priority was clearly to avoid a damaging split over the ceasefire vote, that was obviously the most important thing to him.

    He might regret his shenanigans now though, see the Guardian editorial above. Or maybe not.

    Hope you don’t mind more weird stuff from me 🙂

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    You know that if secular Palestinians tried to set this up, one of the forces against them would be Hamas, right?

    Yes I do. What is the point you trying to make?

    Is it connected to Starmer’s position on the ceasefire?

    dissonance
    Full Member

    Anyway, I’m out….can’t argue with people who believe you should hold Labour politicians to a higher standard than Tory….you should hold all politicians to the same standard

    Correct and that should be a high one.

    The ones who seem to disagree are the starmerites who take the approach that when the tories do dodgy things its bad but when the glorious leader does its just politics.

    nickc
    Full Member

    What is the point you trying to make?

    That your position (a secular Palestine) is fantasy. What would you see as a realistic goal?

    BillMC
    Full Member

    Claims about fantasy and impossibility are all about maintaining the status quo and it’s the status quo that is the cause of the strife. I think most well-adjusted adults can live in a secular democracy without one ethnic group dominating. A ‘Palestinian’ state would be very much like a bantustan and anyway the Israeli aim seems to be genocide and expulsion and refusal of a two-state ‘solution’.

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    Also what’s Hoyle on about with a Terrorist attack?

    Guy Fawkes?

    rone
    Full Member

    Guy Fawkes?

    Let’s not give the scrotes around here another excuse to let fireworks off.

    brownperson
    Free Member

    As for Israel and Palestine, as you’re one of the people who thinks Israel shouldn’t exist at all as a homeland for the Jewish people

    That’s some slur. Nobody on this thread has denied the right of Israel to exist. Many of us simply want to see Palestinians afforded the same rights of sovereignty as anyone else. Rights currently being denied by a fascistic genocidal regime.

    You know that if secular Palestinians tried to set this up, one of the forces against them would be Hamas, right?

    Israel has been systematically destroying any chance of democracy existing in Palestine  for years. The ensuing power vacuum has allowed the Hamas extremists to take control. This has suited the Israeli regime very well; it gives them excuses to further deny Palestinians human rights. If a secular moderate Palestinian National Authority were to emerge, it would expose Hamas as dangerous extremists and opponents to peace, and de-legitimise them in the eyes of the majority of Palestinian people. But the Israeli regime don’t want that, as their ams are clearly to wipe Palestine and its people of the face of the Earth.

    Ultimately, I think an internationally recognised Palestinian state is the only fair way out of this mess.

    It is. I think we are closer to that happening than before October 7th. Ironically, it’s the Israeli regime and military’s actions which have brought this eventuality closer. It’s now clear that Western leaders have finally succumbed to political pressure, and are calling for a ceasefire. Israel is now increasingly seen as a pariah globally, and this is affecting the economy there. I stated way back at the start of this conflict, that what will ultimately dictate how this plays out, will the be inevitable effect on the flow of money. Even Kier Starmer has now been forced to admit that Israel have gone too far. And he will have to cede to Labour’s stated aim of wanting a two state solution. If Israel is to survive, it has to bow to global pressure and cease the genocide. Any leader here has to ensure they are on the right side of history. Starmer now knows that continuing to fail to support a ceasefire would be political suicide. He’s still only u-turning now for political reasons, but at least it’s a start.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    That your position (a secular Palestine) is fantasy. What would you see as a realistic goal?

    But that has nothing to do with Keir Starmer and all the shenanigans that went on with regards to a ceasefire vote.

    The SNP motion had nothing to do with providing a long-term solution for Palestine. It was purely about the senseless and horrific slaughter of innocent civilians right now.

    As the call which is chanted by hundreds of thousands of people at the demos across the UK and the world says…..What do we want?…. CEASEFIRE!…..and when do we want it?…..NOW!

    Perhaps another time we will discuss why you think that a free democratic and secular Palestine, for all Palestinian Jews, Muslims, Christians, and those without any faith, is unachievable.

    And how the actions of successive zionist governments have driven the Palestinian people away from the secular PLO and into the arms of Hamas.

    dazh
    Full Member

    The Red team is meant to be the pathway to hope – it’s done nothing of sort and has gotten much worse recently.

    The labour party have essentially become the same as the US Democrats. They’re no longer an instrument of change in the interests of working people, now they’re just a cynical and soulless political machine whose only purpose is the pursuit, acquisition and retention of power. And we wonder why people are apathetic and disengaged with politics?

    rone
    Full Member

    I think when looking at politics -it’s a bit like charts for the stock market (bear with me.) On a micro level you can see all this little crazy movements in price. You can dissect these little choppy price movements daily as good or bad reflections of value but it often doesn’t reflect the state of things accurately.

    But if you zoom out and look at the macro trend over a bigger timeframe you see the overall trend. The long term position.

    If we zoom out and look at the big picture I see a dire downward trending style of ideology that simply does not serve people or the greater benefit of society.

    There is no avoiding it, and there is nothing currently nothing to stop it.

    There is no long term push back. I don’t know how we can’t come to this conclusion.

    kerley
    Free Member

    We came to this because that is what those who gain from it the most are those in control. Very little has been done for the good of society. But then most people (society as a whole) reject socialism, which is pit simply all about the good of society as the primary objective, without asking themselves why they are rejecting it.

    dazh
    Full Member

    There is no avoiding it, and there is nothing currently nothing to stop it.

    Wait til the mass job losses build up once the AI revolution gathers pace and governments do bollocks all about it.

    rone
    Full Member

    But then most people (society as a whole) reject socialism, which is pit simply all about the good of society as the primary objective, without asking themselves why they are rejecting it.

    True, and yeah they might hate what they think of as an abstraction of socialism but ask them if they hate the NHS. (Although the machine is underway to take care of that.)

    They should hate Neoliberalism to a greater degree because that’s what most of us have experienced. But then  Neoliberalism is about making you feel grateful for a pitance.

    argee
    Full Member

    We came to this because that is what those who gain from it the most are those in control. Very little has been done for the good of society. But then most people (society as a whole) reject socialism, which is pit simply all about the good of society as the primary objective, without asking themselves why they are rejecting it.

    It’s rejected because it’s never really worked, as an ideology it’s great, the problem is it falls apart, probably worse than capitalism, when you add in the people element.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    Hoyle, whose father was instrumental in the creation of ‘Friends of Israel’ in the UK.

    I have only just realised that Lindsay Hoyle is the son of Doug Hoyle – I have no idea why I hadn’t figured that out, especially as it’s an unusual surname!

    Yeah it turns out that the Speaker’s dad was important in setting up Labour Friends of Israel, so probably not totally unbiased over the issue of condemning Israel.

    And whilst I agree that Zionism is a racist political ideology it is most certainly not confined to Jews, you get plenty of Christian Zionists and even Muslim Zionists, and of course atheist Zionists.

    Flaperon
    Full Member

    Please, just give it a rest. This thread is about Sir Kier Starmer.

    dazh
    Full Member

    Yes and Keir Starmer is a major supporter of a zionist govt which has slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent people, many of them children. I’d say Zionism is a relevant subject to discuss on this thread in that context.

    brownperson
    Free Member

    I rather think that discussing Kier Starmer and Labour right now, without mentioning /Israel,Gaza and the current genocide, is pretty much impossible. Especially as the topic du jour is the unholy mess in the Commons regarding the recent vote for a ceasefire.

    brownperson
    Free Member

    It’s rejected because it’s never really worked, as an ideology it’s great, the problem is it falls apart, probably worse than capitalism, when you add in the people element.

    A rather simplistic, flawed and naive view, but I do agree that (some) people are the root cause in the failure of Socialism to actually be properly implemented. But this has nothing to do with the ideology, and everything to do with Capitalist interests and the structures of power in our society. Socialism by its very nature, threatens those traditional power structures and ruling elites, so it’s no surprise that such have made enormous efforts to ensure socialism can never succeed.

    stumpyjon
    Full Member

    Looks like we’ve descended to unsubstantiated slurs and insults, probably about time this thread was properly put out of our misery.

    deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    I dunno. I think Fred might be back. 😍

    somafunk
    Full Member

    I consider it entirely relevant as this issue is affecting the entire Labour Party at the moment, it is the biggest talking point on national and international news, if you don’t like it then there are other threads

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    Please, just give it a rest. This thread is about Sir Kier Starmer.

    Well talk about him! 😃

    stumpyjon
    Full Member

    Oh hell, now its really gone to poop, I agree with everything brownperson just posted.

    Just to be clear I actually mean that, it was not sarcastic, they are absolutely right

    somafunk
    Full Member

    Politico lists 27 (and counting) key walkbacks in Starmers spell as opposition leader,

    https://www.politico.eu/article/keir-starmer-labour-party-uk-election-u-turns/

    rone
    Full Member

    Oh we’re back – good, plenty to discuss.

    dazh
    Full Member

    It’s rejected because it’s never really worked

    Depends what you mean by socialism. If you’re talking about the authoritarian version where the state controls the means of production, then no it doesn’t work for all the reason history has shown us. If however you mean a govt that implements socialist policies, then it’s been massively successful across much of the west and various other places. Stuff like the NHS, social housing, workers rights and decent pay, the welfare state, state funded education, progressive taxation and wealth redistribution etc are wildly popular socialist policies which even the most right wing govts have struggled to dismantle since they were implemented in the postwar years.

    The right would like to pretend that anyone who is left leaning is a crazy trot who wants to see gulags, mass reditions of the red flag and a revival of the KGB. And many on this forum (we know who they are) are happy to do the right’s work for them by perpetuating this ridiculous stereotype. The reality though is that hardly anyone is like that. I don’t want to see the state taking over the means of production and dictating to everyone what they should do and demanding loyalty to the red flag, but I do want to see socialist policies like those above implemented, as do many others who would never describe themselves as socialists.

    imnotverygood
    Full Member

    I think that would best be described as Social Democracy.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    ill just leave this here

    as for favourability

    that graphs is up to dec 23

    since then hes picked up some, im not going to pretend hes taylor swift popular, onvs

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    I couldn’t agree more, me and Lynch are from the same stable.

    It’s worth reading the article to see what else he said about Starmer.

Viewing 40 posts - 21,081 through 21,120 (of 21,650 total)

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