Because the biggest changes to your life, especially currently are the things that government can implement from the top down.

So what, that has nothing to do with what you are taught while at school.  I stand by my comment that teaching kids things that will actually be useful in their lives is more important than knowing the formula of acids (you can learn that later if you need to but 99.9% of the population don’t need to be know it for their life or work)

That however does not mean that I think it is a priority and if it were even in the list of 100 things to improve society in this country it would probably be at position 100.

 I stand by my comment that teaching kids things that will actually be useful in their lives is more important than knowing the formula of acids (you can learn that later if you need to but 99.9% of the population don’t need to be know it for their life or work)

Agreed but not this by Starmer,

And I say this as someone who never went to uni. But some people get on in life by using your example – understanding acids.

Besides who gets to decide what’s useful? Capitalism?

I broadly agree with you but not with Starmer’s point.

Given Starmer’s commitment to Tory budgets, it will probably just mean more  ‘reading around the class.’ No bad thing for clearing up mispronunciations, ‘com promise’ etc, and for improving confidence but his implication I suspect is victim-blaming.

It is literally a game to them.

So, @RishiSunak what do you think?https://t.co/0sQUagkoeK

— Rachel Reeves (@RachelReevesMP) August 4, 2023

No one has any priorities these days.

Don’t knock it. Imagine how different the lives of people will be if they can play chess.

I stand by my comment that teaching kids things that will actually be useful in their lives is more important than knowing the formula of acids (you can learn that later if you need to but 99.9% of the population don’t need to be know it for their life or work)

You would be mistaken, teaching should be to encourage the pupil to think for themselves so that they can undertake the part in brackets. It’s not the job of education to save industry/commerce money. Without the ability to learn and think critically we do our young people a disservice and give potential autocrats a free ride.

I believe that chess helped Andrew Tate develop his cunning skills in the dark art of financially exploiting people, so I can understand the attraction it might have to the next Chancellor of the Exchequer.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1715336/andrew-tate-who-is-he-childhood-career-spt

He played chess competitively from the age of five, even competing in adult tournaments as a youngster.

Edit: To be fair I don’t think that tables in parks for people to play chess is a bad, expect obviously issues concerning the British weather, and it’s nice that they have managed to get half a million quid off the money tree to fund it.

Nor do I think that there is anything wrong with the Shadow Chancellor, a former chess champ, making an off the cuff comment asking the Prime Minister if he fancies a game.

I just wish that the Labour Shadow Chancellor would talk more about shifting the nation’s wealth away from the a smay elite and towards ordinary people who actually create the wealth, ffs.

Don’t knock it. Imagine how different the lives of people will be if they can play chess

🤣🤣

Starmer’s commitment to Tory budgets

Uh?

Not totally overtly as Blair /Brown did  but he has made it clear he will continue with much the same level of spending and that various things we all want are too expensive

Yeah lack of money blah

So increasing interest rates (by the fed) in the USA has added 65bn to bank reserves in interest payments alone – than their balances sheets have provided. That’s a gift of money to the banks.

That’s bank created money that eventually flows into the private sector.

And that’s why inflation is sticky.

‘There is no money ‘ – (for public purpose)

So Labour’s plan for education is more chess and reading aloud, surprised they haven’t mention issuing chalk for hopscotch. Nothing about salaries, recruitment and retention, leaky buildings, de-academisation. At least we have been warned.

NB. There’s a never-ending chess tournament down the local pub. They’ll be able to join in with that but they might not be able to afford the beer. They are woking on a pupil-deficit model rather than investing in children’s/society’s future.

lack of money blah

…is not the same as commitment to Tory budgets. If you actually want to change any minds blatant distortion is unlikely to help. If you’re just sort of mumbling to yourselves I’ll leave you to it.

…is not the same as commitment to Tory budgets.

It is exactly the same. Budgets are about income and expenditure, Labour, under the present leadership, has said they will match Tory taxation and spending levels, which makes their commitment the same as the Tories’s.

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thetimes.co.uk%2Farticle%2Fno-more-tax-and-spend-labours-fiscal-plans-revealed-f7x7f5n5s

It is not the first time that Labour have promised to match Tory expenditure, Gordon Brown did precisely that in 1997.

Starmer has promised New Labour on steroids. That is possibly one promise he might keep, who knows?

Btw;

“Senior members of the shadow cabinet expect to have no more money for public services if the party wins the election next year.”

You can see how important that makes voting Labour.

You would be mistaken, teaching should be to encourage the pupil to think for themselves so that they can undertake the part in brackets. It’s not the job of education to save industry/commerce money. Without the ability to learn and think critically we do our young people a disservice and give potential autocrats a free ride.

I think you would be mistaken.  “teaching kids things that will actually be useful in their lives ” would include the lies of what you are suggesting.  Where did I mention teaching things that would save industry/commerce money?

<p style=”text-align: left;”>is not the same as commitment to Tory budgets. If you actually want to change any minds blatant distortion is unlikely to help. If you’re just sort of mumbling to yourselves I’ll leave you to it.</p>

If you want to change minds point to the times the government/central banks clearly add money to the economy when supposedly they don’t have any for public purpose.

You know, use a bit of evidence based logic rather than pretending Labour and Tories aren’t really sailing the same ship.

However I wasn’t making any particular comment other than money is still making its way into the economy from central banks – despite screeches of monetary brakes being put on things.

Mumbling things ….

See that part where you mention “useful in their lives” that’s usually Tory/workplace shorthand for doing training for industry/commerce as you should know. (If you don’t then maybe some study may be useful).

If that was not your intention my apologies.

Labour, under the present leadership, has said they will match Tory taxation and spending levels, which makes their commitment the same as the Tories’s

That unsourced Times story doesn’t say that, rather vague things about fiscal responsibility and that Reeves won’t raise levels of personal taxation during a cost of living crisis.

But I’m impressed by the paywall bypass

Yes it does say exactly that – that the next Labour government will keep taxation and spending limits to those of the Tories’s.

If you actually want to change any minds blatant distortion is unlikely to help.

Indeed.

Labour have outlined many tax increases already, they just don’t effect most workers or their families. Your direct and indirect taxes as the normal man/woman on the street are only part of the equation.

Labour have outlined many new and increased spending areas, they have just also explained how that is to be balanced with increases in taxes raised (often after the spending, because).

But keep on having a laugh about chess and whatever else you’re circle jerking about. The pretending it doesn’t matter who wins the next election is the only real “playing games” going on here.

Labour have outlined many tax increases already, they just don’t effect most workers or their families.

You need to tell that to Labour’s Shadow Chancellor, apparently no one has told her :

“All policy announcements undergo close scrutiny by Rachel Reeves, the shadow Chancellor, to ensure they do not require additional tax or borrowing.”

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/labour-policy-pledges-cost-rise-income-tax-2377898

And as for any tax rises not affecting “most workers or their families” apparently they aren’t going to effect top earners either……..no one will be paying for these tax rises!

In fact Starmer wants “to lower taxes”

https://www.independent.co.uk/business/starmer-indicates-he-will-not-raise-income-tax-for-top-earners-b2363320.html

But you carry on pretending that Starmer is offering a radical alternative to the Tories, and dishing out crass personal insults to those who disagree, with comments about “circle jerking” or whatever.

Your direct and indirect taxes as the normal man/woman on the street are only part of the equation.

Changes to income tax rates are not the only way to raise tax revenues. Ask a non-dom. Or a parent of kids going to fee paying schools. Tax changes are coming, and some have already being announced, years out from a manifesto being written, never mind a Labour budget.

carry on pretending that Starmer is offering a radical alternative to the Tories

Who said anything about radical?

dishing out crass personal insults to those who disagree

Ah, bless. Carry on with the games everyone else is just avoiding this thread to keep away from.

Tax changes are coming, and some have already being announced

So over the span of two posts you have changed your position from “Labour have outlined many tax increases” to now no increases just “changes”, and not much has been announced because it is so far from a Labour manifesto.

Who said anything about radical?

Now that really takes the biscuit! 😆

Have you seen the Rishi Sunak, Boris Johnson, Suella Braverman, etc, threads? STWers are queuing up to express their total disgust with the current Tory government, apparently they are pretty much evil incarcerated. And utterly stupid and incompetent.

But according to you we don’t need a radical alternative?? I had no idea that the consensus was that the Tories hadn’t got anything fundamentally wrong and all that was needed was for a Labour government to tweak a few things here and there! 😂

You really are all over the place mate, no wonder that you get in such a strop and resort to crass personal insults.

I detailed some tax changes that will raise more revenue. And off you go on your little games. Time waster.

Yeah your claim of (many) “tax increases” turned into “tax changes” when you saw the quote I posted :

“All policy announcements undergo close scrutiny by Rachel Reeves, the shadow Chancellor, to ensure they do not require additional tax or borrowing.”

Your little game is to be all over the place as you desperately try to defend the indefeasible. And then to, yet again, claim that you have no wish to discuss anything with me, after directly challenging me over a comment which wasn’t even aimed at you.

Why don’t you actually stick to your alledged preference and don’t engage with me? Easiest solution – don’t bother reading what I post……solves the problem once and for all; That’s what I do with a few posters, rather than endlessly complain.

Going to engage with my examples of Labour already announcing extra taxes on non-doms and schools fees, or just going to keep up the attempted baiting?

See that part where you mention “useful in their lives” that’s usually Tory/workplace shorthand for doing training for industry/commerce as you should know. (If you don’t then maybe some study may be useful).

If that was not your intention my apologies.

No need to apologise.  As I am not representing tory/workplace values I wouldn’t be saying it from that angle and am well aware of tory/capitalist BS (more stuff for all to be aware of in the “useful in their lives” category so they may not get so easily misled by tories, Daily Mail etc,.))

Some of the points on both sides of this argument are well thought out and provide an interesting range of views to some of us who like to consider a debate’s alternatives.

Sadly – the way some debaters on both sides carry on make the debate frankly depressing to read, you sound like bickering kids in a playground and simply saying not to read their posts means that practically half the posts, and a lot of the content is getting lost.

Have a look at yourselves, you’re coming across like dicks.

When children learn the formulas of acids its not to remember them in case they need them in later life. Its learning how to ‘do’ science.

Eight long provocative and unpleasant posts on this page from a person who wants us to ignore him. 🙂

Nothing to add to the thread BTW, I’ve been told to ignore the incoherent, contradictory nonsense. 😉

Thank you to those who are making informed posts about Labour party policy.

Nothing to add to the thread BTW, I’ve been told to ignore the incoherent, contradictory nonsense. 😉

And yet despite that here you are unable to resist getting your two pennies worth and taking the opportunity of doing a bit of stirring.

How about expressing opinions, if you have any, without resorting to personal attacks and getting angry with others who have different opinions? Most people manage it.

Anyway back to the thread, I’m loving this headline:

Is Keir Starmer the first leader in history to sell out before he even takes office?

With the latest opinions polls showing Labour easily maintaining their 20 plus percent lead over the Tories I think it is probably more a case of Starmer being supremely confident, than feeling it is necessary to abandon your principles to win.

There you go accusing me of being “angry” when there are nothing but smileys on my posts, Ernie. You systematically insult our inteligence and insult us. As for “stirring”, read you own posts on this page.

Come on mods, when is somebody going to do something about Ernie pissing everbody off and trashing threads ?

* goes back to ignoring the thread*

I know most of you think Scotland irrelevant but ~Starmer does not agree.  this analysis from the gruaniad which is very anti SNP ( note no quotes from the SNP)  shows ( IMO ) Starmers weakness well.  The rutherglen byelection is a serious test of labour and its move to the right – the the extent the labour candidate is campaigning on a platform of repudiating some of london labours policies.  SNP have placed themselves to the left of labour and are using the “two cheeks of the same arse” line which is going to resonate well up here

“Labour to be attacked from the left in crucial Scottish byelection”

It also states that labours lead over the tories has dropped back to ” hung parliament” teritory

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/aug/06/tories-are-no-different-from-labour-says-snp-in-run-up-to-rutherglen-and-hamilton-west-byelection

SCOTTISH Labour’s by-election candidate in Rutherglen and Hamilton West has been challenged to “reject NHS privatisation” after being pictured alongside shadow health secretary Wes Streeting.

The SNP’s health spokesperson at Westminster, Martyn Day, said: “The damaging competition between the Tories and pro-Brexit Labour Party to lurch further to the right, and impose creeping privatisation of the NHS, has set alarm bells ringing in Scotland.

“Like the SNP, the overwhelming majority of people in Scotland are committed to the founding principles of the NHS – and want to see more funding from the UK government, instead of ever increasing private sector involvement.

“I would challenge Michael Shanks to reject this toxic race to the bottom on public services, which should be in public, not profit-driven private sector hands. He must distance himself from yet another damaging Tory-Labour Party policy.

remember the source but its a good indication of the thinking on the pro independence side  Labour are going to be pushed on brexit and NHS privitisation and thus both are going to be live issues in the GE

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23703453.labour-urged-reject-nhs-privatisation-wes-streeting-visit/

SNP have placed themselves to the left of labour and are using the “two cheeks of the same arse” line which is going to resonate well up here

“Labour to be attacked from the left in crucial Scottish byelection”

To claim that Labour and the Tories are two cheeks of the same arse is an obvious, and easy, line of attack. Especially when Starmer appears to be determined to make the difference between Labour and the Tories less and less noticeable.

Currently the SNP lead over Labour in Scotland is about 3%, which is significantly less than it was a year ago when it was over 20%, so they certainly have their work cut out.

But yeah, Starmer attempting to ape the Tories should play well for the SNP.

It also states that labours lead over the tories has dropped back to ” hung parliament” teritory

The very latest poll, which is from Omnisis, gives Labour, nationally, a very healthy 22% lead over the Tories, which would give them a huge parliamentry majority.

https://twitter.com/Omnisis/status/1687463535255662592

And more evidence of what an extraordinarily lucky party leader Starmer is:

Scottish Independence Referendum & Westminster Voting Intention (1-2 July 2023)

The SNP’s vote share of 35% is the joint-second lowest figure they have polled in a hypothetical Westminster election in any publicly released poll conducted by any company since October 2014.

This obviously does not reflect on the personal success Starmer has had wooing Scottish voters and everything to do with the self-inflicted crisis facing the SNP.

With Labour’s two greatest foes, the Tories and the SNP, both in crises totally of their own making, Starmer must feel like the luckiest politician in the world. Who needs charisma and/or policies ?

The fact that the SNP are still leading should be of great concern to Starmer.  SNP are too long in power, in a self inflicted crisis and he still cannot overtake them

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/aug/14/keir-starmer-urged-to-defend-lawyers-after-tories-targeted-campaign

Martin Forde KC, the senior lawyer commissioned by Starmer to investigate the Labour party’s culture, said legal professionals from across the political spectrum had expressed their bewilderment that the Labour leader had not said anything after such personal attacks, even after former Conservative law officers criticised the political rhetoric aimed at “lefty lawyers” on Friday.

He really can’t be this bad can he?  I realise he doesn’t want to blow the chances of a Labour win and doesn’t want to give the tories/media anything to dig up or focus on come the election but really.