Prepare for a hung parliament if that’s the case as it would be the only topic on the doorsteps.

Given the majority opinion in the country is now for rejoin and leave sentiment is now very soft and given the vulnerability of the SNP then a rejoin manifesto I believe would have been a vote winner and would have given more seats.  But he has squandered that by becoming a brexiteer.

he should have been hammering at this since the vote.  Cost of living crisis – blame tories and brexit.  NHs Crisis – blame tories and brexit etc etc  inflation  etc etc

Now instead of being able to blame the tories for brexit he has taken ownership of it all in the name of appeasing some racists in a few northern england constituencies. He no longer can use brexit as a weapon to beat the tories with

And don’t think this is not going to be an issue in the next GE.  Remain parties will make it so and now they can pin the blame on Starmer as well as the tories

its a spectacular open goal.  with this brexitteering from him he has removed the best attack lines he could use and ruled out the best way of economic recovery.  He clearly is going to be an english PM only which will of course increase the push for independence in Scotland and make it more likely.

A bunch of folk I know were considering voting labour. None will after that bit of nonsense

The question is whether to believe the bunch of folk you know, or all the pollsters whose entire businesses rely on providing credible methodology on the subject.

Without exception they are all claiming that if there was a general election right now it would be like a walk in the park for Labour.

If they have all got it wrong then their clients, who pay them large amounts of money, won’t be very happy bunnies.

which would take years and risk keeping the Tories and their aggressive divergence strategy in place for at least another 5 years.

That’s what TJ and Nicola Sturgeon want because they weirdly think the tories will give them a referendum on independence.

Labour are now a brexit party

No, labour campaigned to remain. Brexit happened 6 years ago and is done and settled. If you want to carry on replaying the arguments about something that was settled quite a while ago go ahead (ideally on the brexit thread), the rest of us have better things to do.

As you have admitted yourself Ernie that labour lead is very soft as its anti tory not pro labour. Sunak is still seen as the best PM and tories best on a number of measures

Its my opinion that a strong rejoin case would be a different based lead but much stronger and most importantly if you are a unionist would take dozens of seats off the SNP.  so my view is a strong remain case may lead to a loss of a few northern english seats but a much larger gain in Scotland and southern england

It would also give him a UK wide mandate which he is not going to get. he has basically abandoned every remain voter and remain voting area.  He is relying on no alternative in some areas.

That’s what TJ and Nicola Sturgeon want because they weirdly think the tories will give them a referendum on independence.

Thats pure nonsense.  I don’t know if you are trolling or if you really are that ignorant.

Edit.  Sturgeon and I share one thing – a deep loathing of the tories.  Starmers position is now Tory lite.  Brexit, privitisation and more austerity.  FFS please give the people a positive reason to vote labour and FFS please stop lying over brexit.  there is no “make brexit work”

Labour are now a brexit party.  they are in favour of brexit and every labour voter is also supporting brexit.  If you vote labour now you are supporting brexit.

its far from a settled issue.  Its not going away, its not over.  Labour are going to be beaten with the brexiteer tag and its going to cost them votes and seats

As you have admitted yourself Ernie that labour lead is very soft as its anti tory not pro labour. Sunak is still seen as the best PM and tories best on a number of measures

I haven’t admitted anything about the Labour lead being soft. I believe it is built on very strong anti-Tory feelings rather than pro-Labour, most of the electorate have little idea what Labour stands for other than they aren’t Tories or Liberal Democrats, but the Labour lead is absolutely solid imo, poll after poll proves it.

If it was soft there would be the occasional blip in response to events, this is what tends to happen when support is soft. This hasn’t happened, even when Labour has talked of ‘making brexit work’.

And I believe that Labour’s lead will remain solid right up until the actual general election, there is no reason to assume that it won’t. Although it will probably narrow to something like Labour 45% Tories 30%, opposition leads usually narrow in the final days before a general election.

I believe it is built on very strong anti-Tory feelings rather than pro-Labour,

thats soft support

Its all just opinions.  Yours differs from mine – possibly because we are looking from very different directions

Although it will probably narrow to something like Labour 45% Tories 30%

How much will this new brexit party skew things?
Will the red wall shift to the brown shirt wall ?

So by voting Labour at the next general election I’m a brexit supporter?! You don’t half come up with some utter rubbish TJ.

thats soft support

I certainly believe that once in government support for Labour will collapse very quickly. Because frankly imo they have no real solutions, or strategies that are significantly different to the Tories, or if they have will lack the commitment and courage to carry them through.

So granted Labour support is soft in that respect but imo it will remain solid right up until election day. It is being in power that will discredit Labour. Just like it did the Liberal Democrats – when you don’t have any solutions which are fundamentally different to the Tories’s you can expect to lose credibility very quickly.

its far from a settled issue. Its not going away, its not over. Labour are going to be beaten with the brexiteer tag and its going to cost them votes and seats

Unfortunately Brexit gained the Tories a load of seats so it’s a bit rich to say it will lose labour votes now. However I’m still intrigued by there latest polls. But I don’t think old wounds should be opened up.

It’s definitely over for the time-being. Anti-immigration sentiment is not going away unfortunately.

Maybe if a party fixed stuff then people could see it’s not a migrant issue?

There could be loads of reasons to vote Labour if they came up with them, despite Brexit.

A complex issue shoe horned into a black and white debate.

But I don’t think old wounds should be opened up.

The wound is still fresh and gaping open.  Its far from over and will still be a live issue at the next election

No matter how much you wish it away and no matter how much labour and tory work together to try to exclude any debate on it its not over, its not an old wound and it will be a major issue at the next election

I feel sorry for those of you in England that only have tory parties to vote for.  You have the original tories, you have the tory enablers and you have tory lite.

So by voting Labour at the next general election I’m a brexit supporter?! You don’t half come up with some utter rubbish TJ.

Yup

Labour are now a brexiteer party.  Brexit is the single biggest political issue in my lifetime.  If you vote labour you are tacitly supporting brexit and Starmers lies over brexit.

How much will this new brexit party skew things?

Good question, they are standing in every single seat, last general election they stood aside in 300 seats to give the Tories a better chance to beat Labour.

They will be a headache for Sunak, he won’t be need them to give the Tories even more hurdles. If they help to split the Tory vote, which presumably they will, it will obviously help Labour.

The traditional Labour voters who voted Labour in 2017 but we’re put off in 2019 because of Labour’s second referendum policy are unlikely to feel unable to vote Labour in next year’s general election. I believe all the opinion polls are showing the Labour lead in the so-called red wall seats is significantly higher than the national average.

I have some sympathy with TJs view.

But I don’t personally think enough people share that view. And over time I think it will lose its grip.

Remainers have wasted a lot of breath when they could be focused on the next campaign of choice.

Aim your frustration at market economies if you really want to make a difference to living standards. And the way we lie about needing billionaires for money. And so on.

All that is still present pre and post Brexit.

If you vote labour you are tacitly supporting brexit and Starmers lies over brexit.

Which probably makes you no better than a nazi.

What’s this new Brexit party?

How can we have a new Brexit party?

Are we talking about Reform? They’re not new.

What’s the rumpus?

(Reform were smart enough recently to suggest no tax on incomes below 20K)

But they’re also economically bone-headed in every other way. Plus they’re obsessed with anti-mask.

They will go far 🙂

Yeah Reform, it’s a fairly new party that was formed just before the last general election. Its current name is only two years old.

The wound is still fresh and gaping open. Its far from over and will still be a live issue at the next election

Okay I will give you that the repercussions are definitely to come but the debate will erode.

It simply will become old for most. People will move on.

If you vote labour now you are supporting brexit.

Cobblers, TJ. Do you support every single issue the SNP has campaigned on? If not, why did you vote for them?

Yeah Reform, it’s a fairly new party that was formed just before the last general election. Its current name is only two years old.

The Richard Tice made in China merchandise Britain is great party.

Richard Tice might spout crap but he’s less hysterical than Farage. And always *sounds* reasonable in his approach.

I guess they could dent Tory progress.

What’s this new Brexit party?

Labour 😉

*runs away*

Cobblers, TJ. Do you support every single issue the SNP has campaigned on? If not, why did you vote for them?

No I don’t support every issue the SNP campaign on which is why I have never voted for them as I have said many times

Labour 😉

*runs away*

😆

No I don’t support every issue the SNP campaign on which is why I have never voted for them as I have said many times

The one party you never talk about TJ is the one which you consistently vote for, the Scottish Green Party.

Instead you will rabbit on endlessly about the Tories, and Labour, and the SNP. But never mention the party that you have consistently supported for many years.

Which is strange.

No I don’t support every issue the SNP campaign on which is why I have never voted for them as I have said many times

So you don’t vote for the party you relentlessly drone on about. Mmmkay.

I certainly believe that once in government support for Labour will collapse very quickly.

I reckon they’ll have a significant honeymoon period a la Blair. Once they get in the relief in the electorate at a more positive outlook will last quite a while. They’ll implement the low hanging fruit (getting rid of non-doms status, private school charity status etc) and quickly solve pay disputes with the public sector unions and reform stuff that has a direct impact on people like the public transport system to bring prices down. The only way they can f*** it up is if they do nothing, hence my point yesterday about them learning that lesson.

reckon they’ll have a significant honeymoon period a la Blair. Once they get in the relief in the electorate at a more positive outlook will last quite a while.

Scenario B: Things will be so bad when they take office it will simply take too long to turn anything substantial around.

This is the shitty un-level playing field Labour are given every time.

I can never forgive Labour in 2010 for not pushing back hard enough against the World Recession – they seem to roll over and take it.

So you don’t vote for the party you relentlessly drone on about. Mmmkay.

Yup – the SNP are the scottish government in coalition with the greens and their attitudes and policies often give lie to the idea that labour has no alternative as the SNP government show they do have.  Stuff like over the EU.  the SNP show its perfectly possible to be pro EU and to win huge majorities because the SNP show leadership over stuff not followers like the labour party have become

MY SNP mp is also a vile lying carpetbagger so impossible to vote for.  My MSP is a good chap however

Ok to flip this back around away from what Starmer should have done IMO

Streeting today decided to [pick a fight with GPs.  Now I think he is right in principle but picking a fight with GPs and wanting to take them all into the NHS as emplyees will not help the situation at all as it won’t increase capacity short or medium term, indeed would be huge disruption and hugely expensive at a time when the last thing any part of the NHS needs is major reorganisation.  To me thats an attempt at a populist move ie folk are fed up with GPs so announce you are going to do a major reform.  If he had said something like ” we need to look at the whole structure of general practise in consultation with all parties and see if we can make changes to make it more responsive to the needs of the population” that would be good.  To make a pronouncement like this at this point seems to me totally counterproductive

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jan/07/labour-would-tear-up-contract-with-gps-and-make-them-salaried-nhs-staff

Which probably makes you no better than a nazi.

The Nazis were rather keen on European unification so hardly Brexiteers.

TJ, this is what moving from private provision of services to an NHS of which more is owned by the public looks like… more healthcare staff being employed directly by the state rather than private companies.

As for bypassing GPs and pharmacists diagnosing and prescribing more… that’s an SNP policy being picked up by Labour, and can help with capacity.

Both good moves IMHO. GP reform is essential (well, at least that’s what the local hospital trust staff bang on about in the pub, anyway).

I agree its the right long term aim.

I question the tactical wisdom of making this announcement now.  Its not something that would increase capacity in either the short or medium term and will be hugely expensive.  Billions to buy all the GPs premises for a start off

As the election approaches, the policies slowly come… damned for not announcing them earlier… now damned for announcing them too early?

They’d just rent the premisies at inflated prices like they do for everything else NHS. I don’t even think it’s the right long term aim, the curent system would work with more resources. There’s an ageing population, increasing population, more care methods and treatments available. In short demographic reasons for an increase in demand for GP services. The main response to that needs to be more GPs.

more healthcare staff being employed directly by the state rather than private companies.

I havent managed to find his actual speech but the bit generally quoted in reports doesnt actually say employed by the NHS it just says “modern practices”. Which can be managed in several ways eg the Operose Health approach.

Brexit is done.

Remain is over.

Bre-entry is only just getting started.

Still not sure why we’re going on about Brexit still, it has been done, Britain exited the EU, where the UK is just now is the problem, we lost benefits of being part of the EU, and have not actively managed areas where we could improve now we’re out of the EU.

That’s what the next government will be focusing on, for all the ‘rejoin the EU’ talk, as stated many times, we lost all our benefits on exit, to rejoin would cost us more money, time and effort, at a time when most of the world doesn’t know what’s going to happen, to simply state that rejoining would benefit the UK is about as blind as the Brexiteers telling us how leaving would be great for us.

It’s also the same for Scotland, all the talk of being Pro-EU, applying as soon as they get independence and so on, that’s great things to say, but no actual evidence that it’ll benefit Scotland or the people, just slogans by politicians.

Which can be managed in several ways eg the Operose Health approach.

thats my fear given how pro privitisation he is and how corrupt