Insignificant.  Devolved policy areas are not where we need this power.  I cannot think of a devolved area where any supranational treaties are useful in any way.  anyone think of one?  Erasmus maybe?  Trade is not devolved, energy is not devolved.  Immigration is not devolved.

As to Labour in Scotland.  the SNP look like a government running out of steam.  Good pickings for labour there in terms of westminster seats if they would allow the scottish branch to actually produce decent policies.  Although I did see a new type of attack line from Sarwar and co recently.  Scots government have the “scottish child payment”  labour said to put it up more.  Thats the first time I have seen them using the line which I am sure would work well – ” thats a decent policy but does not go far enough” rather than “SNP baaaaaaad”Labour instead are fighting with the tories over the unionist vote.  They could take votes of the SNP instead but not while they carry on as they are.

If labour could actually bring themselves to say that the SNP can do good things they would also have some better attack lines to use against the tories in Westminster.  In Scotland the nurses have been offered 5-11% depending on grade.  If Scotland can do that why can’t england?  labour should be using that but will not as it means admitting the Scottish government can get things right

Lowest grade of nurses in Scotland are going to end up £800 a year better off than in England

The power transfer has de facto been from us to EU.

Interesting comment. So presumably you think the power we lost over EU policy (and the power the EU gained) is greater than the power the UK govt has over it’s own population and economy? I think by any measure that’s quite a stretch. Even if true I doubt most people in the UK would rather have power over EU countries than their own.

How are you quantifying this power by the way? Normally it’s defined as the ability of a govt to make laws and set govt policy in a country (see Scotland for a good example). In England the UK govt has almost (it’s not 100% because we are still bound by various international treaties like NATO membership etc) 100% power to do that. In the EU they were one of 28 nations. So is 1/28th power over the EU greater or less than 100% power over England (I’m not saying the UK due to devolution complicating it)?

So is 1/28th power over the EU greater or less than 100% power over England

“please compare these two made up scenarios that have never been true, and never will be”

johnx2 Free Member

What power?

dunno if that was in response to me but yeah let’s do brexit. The EU has lost no power as a result of brexit…

Sorry I thought someone was trying to set up a Labyrinth reference, but as you didn’t answer with “the power of Voodoo” that obviously wasn’t the case.

Sorry I thought someone was trying to set up a Labyrinth reference, but as you didn’t answer with “the power of Voodoo” that obviously wasn’t the case.

went over my head, but one of the less balls postings on the thread 🙂

I doubt most people in the UK would rather have power over EU countries than their own.

I’d rather our own was an EU country, obv as would most others now. But not going to happen for a damaging while.

Either way, UK has lost power in the world as well as in relation to EU countries.

How are you quantifying this power by the way? Normally it’s defined as the ability of a govt to make laws and set govt policy in a country

Plenty of states where government has failed can go on making laws and setting policy on paper. Power is defined by being able to achieve your desired outcomes (improved health, reduced inequalities, whatever), not just to proclaim and legislate for these.

Within our borders we see how little actual power our government has being beholden to world events. If Trump has another go round my word we’ll be on our lonely o.

And then there’s NI where the unionists seem to think they’ve not gained a right lot.

Starmer has lost my vote. It’ll have to be Libdems or just not bother, I’m afraid.

Fair enough saying “we will not do this and we will not do that” is all very well, but lying to justify it? No, sorry, I’m out.

He’s destroyed any credibility he may have had by saying rejoining the single market would not benefit the UK economically. It would. He knows it and anyone with any sense knows it.

If you are willing to tell porkies about the single biggest political issue of the last decade then what else?

You missed out the words “now” and “at this stage”. If you want the UK to join the SM this decade, you are right out of luck. No vote will give you that. The choices are between divergence or alignment. For the sake of NI and all our futures I’d choose the later.

Yep. Though, it worked against Miliband- too scared to say “yeah we get money from union members, normal working british people- who do you get your money from you bought-and-paid-for little shit?”

Please one day somebody say this!

No vote will give you that.

No point in voting, then. You’ve sort of confirmed it for me.

If Starmer pulls off the 2016/19 trick of treating voters with disdain then good luck to him, but I’m not voting for someone who debases himself by making stupid comments like I mentioned above.

🤷‍♂️

The UK needs a decade of convergence and agreeing (and honouring) closer agreements with the EU before talk of being “in” the single market means anything. Any politician selling you SM or CU for whole UK as a quick and easy win is lying to you. There is a reason that stopping the UK leaving the EU was important… the damage is going to take decades to repair. The longer the current Tories stay in power, pushing divergence, the worse things are going to get before the ship starts to do it’s very slow change of course.

No point in voting, then. You’ve sort of confirmed it for me.

If Starmer pulls off the 2016/19 trick of treating voters with disdain then good luck to him, but I’m not voting for someone who debases himself by making stupid comments like I mentioned above.

^^
The price of righteousness and indulging in pique is more tory government.

Starmer has lost my vote. It’ll have to be Libdems or just not bother, I’m afraid.

By not voting against the tories you’re voting for them. It’s as simple as that.

He’ll dig a bigger hole the longer he pretends to certain demographics that their choice in 2016 was not colossally stupid.

he pretends to certain demographics that their choice in 2016 was not colossally stupid.

It was stupid, obv, but I can’t see any politician ever calling the folks they want to vote for them stupid. And in this case it would just make them dig in harder.

I hope you’re in a Tory/lib marginal.

And in this case it would just make them dig in harder.

Why in this particular case? And at what point do you finally confront them with it?

I hope you’re in a Tory/lib marginal.

Nope.

It would be a shame if you did rule out voting for Labour in a Tory/Labour marginal… I think that would be counter productive to your aims… but you only get one vote… it’s not like this forum where you can have your say many times, over and over, under many different names.

Nope.

Then you’re exactly the same as the people who voted for brexit thinking it would make them better off. A turkey voting for xmas.

Gobble gobble.

Just to provide a reality check this is an opinion poll carried out at the weekend:

Latest GB Voting Intention (4 December 2022)

Like all the opinion polls of the last couple of months or so it shows an easy general election victory for Labour with a 15+30% lead over the Tories, and the LibDems struggling to manage to get the 12% share of the vote they received last general election.

In fact at least 95% of opinion polls show the LibDems unable to reach 12%.

It is now all but a forgone conclusion that Labour will win the next general election, the only question is how huge
will their majority be.

The only way I can possibly see Labour screwing up now is if they do something incredibly daft and adopt LibDem EU policy.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/liberal-democrat-rejoining-eu-policy/

Which we all know was a vote loser that cost the LibDems a lot of support at the last general election, and appears not to make the LibDems any more popular now.

Well, if it is in the bag, then no one needs to worry about my vote.

I don’t need to worry about vote as the tory **** mp will get 60% just as he has for the last 25 years. He even managed it in 1997.

Well, if it is in the bag, then no one needs to worry about my vote.

Yup, nothing the Tories are doing or have done in recent months, including changing their leader twice, appears to be having any effect on the likely outcome of the next general election.

All opinion polls are consistently, without exception, showing huge Labour leads far beyond any recognised margin of error.

Although I don’t do crystal ball gazing predictions I expect that if there was a general election now the Labour lead would narrow down to something like 45% Labour to 30% Tory, which would give Starmer a huge majority.

So now is a great time to be self-indulgent with your voting …… LibDem, Official Monster Raving Loony Party, whatever.

Well, if it is in the bag, then no one needs to worry about my vote.

Every vote is needed to get rid of the tories. If you live in a tory/labour seat then any vote other than labour helps the tories and makes your wish for a less damaging brexit and greater alignment with Europe less likely. You know that though don’t you? And still you don’t care about your own interests and more importantly the interests of millions who are suffering at the hands of the tories. Selfishness on another level, have a word with yourself.

So now is a great time to be self-indulgent with your voting …… LibDem, Official Monster Raving Loony Party, whatever.

Every vote is needed to get rid of the tories.

????

Yeah Daz has a different view to me, in his overdramatic world every vote counts. IMO once you hit the threshold further votes become essentially irrevalant.

Although having said that I would love to see Labour with a 300 seat majority rather than a perfectly adequate 30 seat majority, it would make the PLP incredibly difficult for Starmer to control.

in his overdramatic world every vote counts.

Ernie you’re funny. It’s not really about votes counting, more the liberal virtue signalling about the EU that annoys me. I don’t particularly want to vote labour at the moment either as Starmer’s policies are far to the right and lacking in the radicalism of what I would like. But I will for no other reason than there are people in our society who desperately need a different govt. It’s easy for me though cos I live in a tory-lib ultra marginal. Not much point worrying about it if you live in a safe labour seat.

Well I guess that this:

https://news.google.com/articles/CBMiNWh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmJiYy5jby51ay9uZXdzL3VrLWVuZ2xhbmQtbG9uZG9uLTYzODg2NDQw0gE5aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYmJjLmNvLnVrL25ld3MvdWstZW5nbGFuZC1sb25kb24tNjM4ODY0NDAuYW1w?hl=en-GB&gl=GB&ceid=GB%3Aen

Helps to explain this :

And still no one has been expelled from the Labour Party for being responsible for condemning human beings to live in conditions that it is probably illegal to keep pigs in.

The former Labour leader and the finance head were “suspended” from the Labour Party nearly two years ago but their expulsion have still not been announced.

Croydon’s former leader and finance lead suspended by Labour

Lucky for them they are both right-wingers so can expect a sympathetic ear from Starmer’s Labour Party.

In contrast left-wingers face fast track expulsion from the Labour Party in Croydon, especially if they are discovered to have criticized Israel a few years ago on social media.

Criticizing Israel’s treatment of Palestinians under occupation, despite the fact that the United Nations regularly does it, is considered more serious in Starmer’s Labour Party than condemning council tennants to live in subhuman conditions unmatched in any Tory council.

“Inflation plus 5% is not a sum I’d be able to afford if I was Health Secretary”

Shadow Health Secretary @wesstreeting says he wouldn’t meet the RCN’s demands for nurses’ pay, adding that politicians shouldn’t make promises they can’t keep.#Peston pic.twitter.com/wxuAj2RIHx

— Peston (@itvpeston) December 7, 2022

This is so desperately pathetic, and ill-informed. You ‘Streeting’ afford nothing. The government however can afford whatever is available and NEEDED.

The Labour front bench specialises in giving me no reasons to vote for them. Especially Streeting.

Country is desperate for a positive direction – you’re not getting it with Labour. Starmer or Streeting apologists please don’t jump on the end of this and tell me how this is a good thing.

Full circle again for me – this is the most viciously ignorant Labour sqaud in years. Not a chance currently I will be voting for this line up.

Time and time again we’ve discussed how government’s (with control of their own finances, own central banks etc) don’t run out of cash (an impossiblity) and how it works against Labour’s raison d’etre.

There really is no hope.

this is the most viciously ignorant Labour sqaud in years

Maybe a bit purposefully ignorant as that is what the voters want (see last 3 elections)

Maybe a bit purposefully ignorant as that is what the voters want (see last 3 elections)

I think voters want better – they just have had the debate so messed up no one knows what actually could be done with a party that has the tools and the drive.

Can you understand a how voter can only want an alternative if it’s actually sold as an alternative?

There’s always a third way. The whole debate we have is built around polarisation. Messed up neolibralism or slightly tweaked neolibralism. The alternative to both doesn’t have to be Communism either.

There is definitely a better option – clearly. Not my fault no one wants to fight for it.

Spineless – the lot of them.

Is it unreasonable with Labour’s massive advantage currently to stop talking like a Tory legal team?

Why is it so hard to say the very rich have had it too good for too long at the expense of everyone else – here’s how we should fix that. And we don’t need their cash to fix it. We can pay those good state wages, we can have a functioning state, health service and police force. We have the power to make it happen. We can rebuild high-streets and infrastructure. We have the capacity. Bottom up.

Why is that a vote loser?

Which of the following do you think would make the best Prime Minister? (6-7 Dec)

Keir Starmer: 29% (-1 from 29-30 Nov)
Rishi Sunak: 24% (-1)
Not sure: 43% (+1)https://t.co/hCKSFxFBzM pic.twitter.com/843fhVXeij

— YouGov (@YouGov) December 8, 2022

You are being way too pessimistic IMO rone.

The Labour right-wing feel that all they need to offer the country is the same policies but under a new management. At the moment that strategy is working fine because they have successfully focused on the management as being the problem, not policies.

However once in government, which Labour are all but certain to be within the next two years, it will be a whole new ball game.

For a start the reasonability of government will then fall on Labour. You have no faith in neoliberal policies delivering on the British people’s needs, which if that is the case the next Labour government will find itself in a crises very quickly indeed.

Keir Starmer I have absolutely no doubt will prove to be a hopelessly inadequate Prime Minister. He is clearly a totally crap leader of the Opposition who has had the extreme good fortune of watching the Tories eat each other, and they preform own goals after own goals, as they simultaneously try to implement failed policies.

As PM Starmer will need to be decisive and give a clear response to every new development, he won’t be able to leave that sort of thing to Angela Rayner, or other Front Benchers as he currently does. I can’t envisage any situation where he would last a whole term, I would expect him to last no more than a few months.

Hopefully Labour will have a huge parliamentary majority, possibly two hundred or more. As the crisis of government unfolds I would expect party discipline to collapse and factions within the PLP to form.

If a right-wing Labour government fails to deliver on the aspirations of ordinary working people I would expect the trade unions to pull the rug from under them – I really think they are drinking at last chance saloon in that respect, a fact which many right-wingers are no doubt aware of.

The Tories are likely to be an extremely weak and utterly discredited force after the next general election, with possibly their worse result in 200 years so of much less relevance, the threat for the Labour right-wing is more likely to be from the left – of the Labour Party, SNP, PC, etc.

IMO the most important aspect of the volatile political crisis yet to come will be to have a massive Labour majority. If a Labour government fails to respond in the interests of ordinary working people it will leave both the Tories and Labour utterly discredited.

The obvious area of concern would be the rise of the far-right, but thankfully in that respect there is very little evidence of the possibility of that compared to other European countries. The anti-establishment movement is more likely to come from the left. Especially if the trade unions get involved.

the same policies but under a new management

Utter bollocks. I read no further, sorry. The pub beckons…

Well I didn’t write it expecting you to agree, but thanks for the confirmation anyway.

And yes, you definitely did the right thing not reading it any further – loads more stuff that you wouldn’t have agreed with.

Best strategy is probably not to read anything I post?💡

The pub beckons…

I’m down your local tonight Kelvin if you’re around. 🙂

but thankfully in that respect there is very little evidence of the possibility of that compared to other European countries.

Not like we don’t have any popular characters on the far right who have proven they can massively influence politics beyond their non-existent parliamentary representation. Oh..

The anti-establishment movement is more likely to come from the left. Especially if the trade unions get involved.

Recent history would appear to also discredit this statement. Much as I was excited by the Corbyn project and disappointed at its ultimate failure, it came about as a result of some very specific and unusual circumstances which I doubt will ever be repeated. Apart from the tiny RMT, I see little evidence of any real anti-establishment leadership in the union movement. Most of the union bosses have far too much to lose to risk rocking the boat too much.

It’s interesting though that you appear to want labour to win and then fail. I fully expect to be disappointed, but I don’t want to be. The only winners from a Starmer failure will be the tories.

Best strategy is probably not to read anything I post?

I can recommend that strategy.

Why is that a vote loser?

Because they won’t believe it. Even the mild stuff Corbyn was offering was not believed and questioned on how anyone could possibly do it. The electorate are brain washed idiots remember.

It’s interesting though that you appear to want labour to win and then fail.

Actually my comment was specifically aimed at rone, plenty of clues such as “You are being way too pessimistic IMO rone” and “You have no faith in neoliberal policies delivering on the British people’s needs”. I was responding to specific points rone made.

But anyway it has nothing to do with me “wanting” anything. My comment was with regards of the reality of the situation, not that I “want” Labour to win and then fail.

The reality is that Labour will almost certainly win the next general election with, in all likelihood, a huge majority, whatever I want.

Also very likely is that the next Labour government will pursue economic policies not significantly different to Tory economic policies, fiscal prudence etc., whatever I might want.

Like rone I don’t believe that it will solve the issues confronting ordinary working people – cost of living crises etc. I believe that it will fail.

What I “want” is a Labour government elected which shifts economic power in favour of ordinary working people. Whilst I am not as pessimistic as rone appears to be I am sufficiently enough of a realist to accept that that will not be an easy struggle.