Search the forum using the power of Google

  • This topic has 17,287 replies, 337 voices, and was last updated 1 day ago by kelvin.
Viewing 40 posts - 16,521 through 16,560 (of 17,288 total)
  • Sir! Keir! Starmer!
  • dissonance
    Full Member

    Yeah, this is a pointless internet forum which people like me use to avoid work and other boring stuff. It really isn’t the Oxford debating society.

    TBF given the quality of some of the people who have been senior in that society and their performance in PMQs we could probably be able to claim higher standards.

    dazh
    Full Member

    Automation will help in some ways but the fantasy that restricting immigration will force businesses into this and help raise productivity is for the fairies

    What’s more productive for an economy? Designing, building, installing and maintaining automated car washes, or importing an army of albanians or Iraqis and paying them £5 an hour to wash cars by hand?

    kimbers
    Full Member

    anyway Starmer chugging along

    2 years is an awful long time to be ‘PM in waiting’ though

    kelvin
    Full Member

    What’s more productive for an economy?

    Well… point one is that the machines already exist, and are cheaper to use… but they aren’t in use much because humans like dealing with humans. See also checkouts in supermarkets. A nation of old people going about their lives dealing only with machines isn’t the utopia embraced by many. Point two is that paying workers, who then spend money on essentials and non-essentials, is good for the economy in a way that a machine capturing money supported by far fewer support workers is not. Multiplier effect. So, the glib answer is that having lots of young working people is better for the economy than not having them. Point three is that trying to reduce the issue of migrant workers to a job you consider non-essential shows a certain bias towards work that isn’t hands on, physical and outdoors. It’s a (home) office worker’s view of what is and isn’t worthwhile work.

    2 years is an awful long time to be ‘PM in waiting’ though

    Likely to be 2 very hard years for whoever is the actual PM over that time. But yes, plenty of chances for Starmer to drop the ball in the years ahead. He’s doing a lot better than we thought he would though… isn’t he?

    kimbers
    Full Member

    What’s more productive for an economy? Designing, building, installing and maintaining automated car washes, or importing an army of albanians or Iraqis and paying them £5 an hour to wash cars by hand?

    bit dogwhistle there!, it may not be the Oxford mass-debating society but its not the daily mail forum either 😉

    UK skills shortage list is long, from social care to architects, musicians, biomedical scientists, nurses, choreographers, geoscientists, welders, software developers, bricklayers, doctors…..

    the social care crisis is crippling the NHS, thanks in part to staff shortages, driven by brexit, low wages, cuts to council funding and an absence of any sort of plan from government, 1 in 10 social care places are currently unfilled, Im not sure automation will save us there

    dazh
    Full Member

    Point two is that paying workers, who then spend money on essentials and non-essentials, is good for the economy in a way that a machine capturing money supported by far fewer support workers is not. Multiplier effect.

    There’s also a multiplier effect in the services and infrastructure required to support a higher population. Housing, schools, local services, increased capacity in the NHS etc. To be absolutely clear I’m not anti-immigration, if it was down to me I’d have completely open borders. But we need to put the infrastructure in place to support an increasing and continually mobile population. Do minimum wage car washers provide the tax income required to service their housing, infrastructure and public services demand? In a word, no they don’t. So who pays instead? Maybe people should just wash their own cars?

    bit dogwhistle there!

    Not really, just a random, but very pertinent example. Seems to me pretty obvious that it’s more beneficial to an economy to automate something like car washing. All the jobs involved in doing that would provide the tax income needed to improve public services, and the immigrant labour could then be directed towards areas of the economy where they’re actually needed, like care work and other sectors which can’t be automated. I see little value in importing people to do menial, servile jobs.

    mildred
    Full Member

    I think some of the more passionate pro-European members of this forum need to realise that whilst membership of the EU gave undeniable benefits to the UK, the Brexit vote has been made, we are out of the EU and the whole conversation is still quite toxic amongst a large part of the voting public. If it is even mentioned in my office it causes sourness and what aboutery.

    I am massively pro EU and would love for the UK to re-join BUT I do not believe the public want this to be the focus of the next election, which is exactly what it would become. There are a great deal more urgent issues that need tackling.

    Even if those who voted leave are now swinging back towards remain it absolutely matters not at this point. For Starmer to explain to these people that they were wrong, that Brexit has contributed to this shit show would be counterproductive. It would be patronising and unlikely to win any votes. Remember that large numbers of those who voted leave were also Labour voters from strong Labour seats… who voted Conservative in 2019 under Johnson’s pledge to get Brexit done. The details didn’t matter to a lot of people, they wanted out because they wanted out; they’ve had decades of the tabloid press drip feeding EU paranoia; even low key Bollox such as “straight banana” fed the rhetoric that led to Brexit. That cannot be undone overnight or even over the next couple of years.

    Starmer needs to win back both his traditional Labour voter but also a large chunk of other voters. Those who accuse him of playing the political game by trying to appeal to everyone… well, yes..! That’s what he HAS to do, otherwise it’s gonna be another 4 years of this bunch. Shouting ”I told you so” and “you were all wrong” would not only not get those votes back (nobody likes to be told they’re wrong even if it’s plain they were), he would likely lose those voters who would vote Labour; it would be deeply unattractive to have potential leader crowing about he was right and you were wrong.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Housing, schools, local services, increased capacity in the NHS etc.

    All need workers.

    Do minimum wage car washers provide the tax income required to service their housing, infrastructure and public services demand?

    So, we’re blaming minimum wage earners for not paying enough tax now are we? We’ve gone full Daily Mail below the article comments section now… I’ll come back when we’re talking about Kier Starmer again.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Spot on Mildred.

    dazh
    Full Member

    So, we’re blaming minimum wage earners for not paying enough tax now are we?

    I think you’ve imagined that. It’s pretty obvious why people in this country are anti-immigration (and hence anti-EU). It’s because we don’t have the infrastructure and scalable services to meet the needs of an increasing population, and that inevitably ends up creating competition for housing, medical services etc. We really can’t have it both ways, if we want immigrant labour in our economy to do the jobs that we are either unwilling or unable to do, then we have to create the infrastructure to support them, and that’s only going to happen if we fix our economic system so that we can pay for all that.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    if we want immigrant labour in our economy to do the jobs that we are either unwilling or unable to do, then we have to create the infrastructure to support them, and that’s only going to happen if we fix our economic system so that we can pay for all that.

    chicken and egg there

    Do minimum wage car washers provide the tax income required to service their housing, infrastructure and public services demand?

    people are worth more than just their tax take, social care is vitally important, not least because the knock on for the NHS and it may be underpaid but it contributes £50bn a year to the UK economy!

    -no idea what the figure would be for car washes, but its a wildly under-regulated industry, notorious for sub minimum wages and employment law violations, but thats once again a failure of government, rather any immigrants working there

    Edukator
    Free Member

    like care work and other sectors which can’t be automated. I see little value in importing people to do menial, servile jobs.

    According to at least one nobel prize winner care work is menial and servile (I don’t agree but it’s often paid as such unfortunately). That along with:

    importing an army of albanians or Iraqis and paying them £5 an hour to wash cars by hand?

    stereotypes migrant workers in a way that is plain… .

    It’s not our imagination, Dazh, read back through you own posts FFS.

    dazh
    Full Member

    chicken and egg there

    Well the majority in the UK have chosen to do without the eggs. The question I have is do the people who support higher immigration do so simply because they know immigrants provide a cheap resource which supports their lifestyles?

    read back through you own posts FFS.

    Yes Ed, I get it. Anyone who doesn’t conform to your European neoliberal colonialist views is a racist. 🙄

    kelvin
    Full Member

    The question I have is do the people who support higher immigration do so simply because they know immigrants provide a cheap resource which supports their lifestyles?

    If you mean immigrants have at various times saved the lives of myself, of friends and of family members, and also (in my opinion) improved the quality of all our lives. Than yes. The focus on “cheap labour” when talking about immigration is about devaluing work that is poorly paid. Immigrants perform essential roles across our society, some are well paid, some are not. Doubly true in the NHS… …and back to Starmer… I’m fully behind the plan to train more staff in the UK to staff the NHS… but it will still rely on people born elsewhere though, simply due to demographics… like all sectors that rely on new younger workers coming though all the time.

    MSP
    Full Member

    I’m fully behind the plan to train more staff in the UK to staff the NHS

    And it will require an improvement in working conditions (including pay) for them to follow through their training with long term careers.

    One of the things with immigrants doing low paid jobs, is it realy where we are as a society where we need people escaping extreme poverty to share a bedsit with 5 other people sleeping on mattresses on the floor in shifts just in order to make ends meet. Or could we prioritise actually making every job having conditions and pay that allows people real choice and freedom in life.

    dazh
    Full Member

    If you mean immigrants have at various times saved the lives of myself, of friends and of family members, and also (in my opinion) improved the quality of all our lives

    No I’m not talking about them. I don’t know anyone who is against immigrants working in the NHS or other critical services. Back to the car washing example, is it ok to import workers to wash the cars of peope who can’t be bothered to do it themselves? Same goes for other low-skilled manual jobs. The problem with immigration in this country is that on one side you have a group of people who rightly or wrongly feel like they have to compete with immigrants for housing, services etc, and on the other side there is a group of people who don’t have to worry about those things and benefit more from immigrant labour than the other group.

    Anyway back to Starmer. The reason I bring this up is that it’s quite clear which side he is on with this debate, and it doesn’t appear to be the side of most of his supporters. I’ve always thought Starmer was incapable or unwilling to choose a distinct position on most issues but he’s surprised me on this.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    is it ok to import workers to prepare meals for people who can’t be bothered to do it themselves?

    Etc, etc. These are real jobs. Why do you seem so keen to do away with them? Because it’s work that’s beneath you?

    Same goes for other low-skilled manual jobs.

    What do you have against manual workers? You do realise that they might consider your job to be sitting around on your arse doing nothing useful while belittling them and their lives on the internet.

    We should pay people who do these jobs more, wherever they are born. Perhaps we should pay people less that have non-manual jobs as well? What we value in terms of work, and how we determine the income of people right across society, needs to change.

    The reason I bring this up is that it’s quite clear which side he is on with this debate, and it doesn’t appear to be the side of most of his supporters.

    He’s trying overly hard to look to represent the interests of a certain slice of voters he needs to win over, even where that is counter to the opinions and values of Labour members and 2019 Labour voters. It’s going to be a tough path to walk… but he has to do it if he want to ensure those votes/seats turn to Labour when we eventually get to an election. A lot of people will be upset (as can be seen in the “I can’t support Labour now” comments in this thread), but it’s the path he has to take to beat the Conservatives. There are people that think he can just be quiet on Brexit and immigration… but he can’t, otherwise that is what the next election will be fought on… Starmer is not prepared to risk that, no matter how strong the current polling for Labour. Rightly so in my opinion.

    dazh
    Full Member

    Why do you so keen to do away with them?

    Because they’re shit jobs which don’t really add anything to our economy or society? Would you want to do them? I don’t, so why should we expect others to? How far does it go? Perhaps I could hire someone who’s desperate enough for some cash to wipe my arse for me, or wash my bikes?

    What do you have against manual workers?

    Nothing. I have a problem with many of the jobs we ask them to do which could be automated or done away with by other means.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Would you want to do them? I don’t, so why should we expect others to?

    I wouldn’t want to be teacher, surgeon, police officer…

    Perhaps I could hire someone who’s desperate enough for some cash to wipe my arse for me

    The day may come for you.

    dazh
    Full Member

    I wouldn’t want to be teacher, surgeon, police officer…

    Either you don’t understand my point or you’re being deliberately obtuse. Do you seriously not see the problem with exploitative employment practices in the immigrant workforce and wider economy? Or maybe you’re just proving my suspicion, that many supposed liberals are quite content for these things to exist as long as they are deriving some cheap benefit from them.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    I see the problem. And I’ve stated many many times that low pay and poor conditions need addressing. But I don’t dismiss “unskilled” and manual labour in the way you do. Perhaps because that’s my family background. And your desire to automate away other people’s jobs might catch up with your own role one day. But I don’t see “arse wiping” being automated any time soon, and have huge respect for people doing a job that includes that. It’s not a job I would want to do, we should pay people more in those jobs, we should value more the people who do those jobs, we should welcome with open arms people taking on those jobs, wherever they were born.

    kerley
    Free Member

    He’s doing a lot better than we thought he would though… isn’t he?

    No really, no. He has continued to do the bare minimum while having the good fortune of the tories imploding. It had to happen at some time after 12 years in power and once it tipped over that was it but it was not caused by anything Starmer did. What he has been good at, which was pretty obvious at the start, is not giving the tories or right wing media anything to really get him on as he is clean and continues to be clean (pretty much by doing nothing!)

    dazh
    Full Member

    But I don’t dismiss “unskilled” and manual labour in the way you do.

    FFS I’m not dismissing the labourers, I’m questioning the need for the jobs they do. These people could be deployed in much more useful areas of the economy than washing cars (as a random example). The care industry and NHS for example. And yes we should pay much, much more for them. Care workers for example should be paid at least double what they currently are. Same goes for nurses, ambulance drivers, hospital porters, street cleaners, sewage workers etc.

    PS I don’t exclude my own job from this. Eventually it will be automated and rightly so because writing code is a mechanistic boring activity even if it requires quite a bit of training and practice. I’d be far more useful to society doing something else.

    In terms of the EU/immigration debate, it seems that instead of questioning the need for some jobs in our economy and where workers could have the most beneficial impact, the answer is simply to bring in a load of people who are desperate enough to do anything we ask for very little money in return.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    No really, no.

    I don’t think he’s given enough credit for his role. When the papers and Tories were after him for “beergate”, he turned that around by saying he’d resign if it stuck… the contrast with Johnson doing everything he could to avoid responsibility for his lies and actions were stark. When Truss came along his focus on government action on climate change and the overly cautious way he focused on how we would “afford” that (to the dismay of many in this thread) was a strong contrast to Truss being in the pocket of fossil fuel interests and lobby bodies and her avoidance of scrutiny and transparency around her own “plans”. One person’s “bare minimum, and too slow” is another persons “the right announcements, at the right time, and not before”. There could still be another 2 years of chaos and impoverishment ahead of us before we get to the point where manifestos are published.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    I’m not dismissing the labourers, I’m questioning the need for the jobs they do. These people could be deployed in much more useful areas of the economy than washing cars (as a random example)

    A totally unrepresentaive example at that. Immigrants don’t often wash cars other than their own. Every reference you’ve made to what immmigrants do has been inaccurate and dreadful stereotyping. Here’s how immigrants are really employed:

    https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/migobs/viz/Labourmarketbriefing2021/FIG8

    I don’t know where you get your information from, Dazh, but you seriously need to think about your sources.

    Have a look at you own sector, is that menial and servile?

    dazh
    Full Member

    A totally unrepresentaive example at that.

    Maybe. But the general point still stands. Given the view of UK voters and Keir Starmer on immigration it would appear that your pro-immigration/free movement at all costs opinion isn’t shared. Wonder why that is? Racists obviously! 😀

    Have a look at you own sector, is that menial and servile?

    I get paid to post on here. What do you think?

    zippykona
    Full Member

    I should imagine an Indian trade deal will come with a supply of people to do all our shitty jobs for a pittance.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Maybe. But the general point still stands.

    Have another look at the table I linked.

    Wonder why that is? Racists obviously!

    One point we agree on then, Starmer fears and fails to act against the racists among the electorate and in his own party. Plenty of articles in the gutter press to support that view. (add smiley to suit your views).

    I should imagine an Indian trade deal will come with a supply of people to do all our shitty jobs for a pittance.

    Mainly computer programming.

    dazh
    Full Member

    One point we agree on then

    No we don’t, in case you hand’t detected the sarcasm. It’s perfectly valid for people to be worried about the importation of foreign labour threatening their jobs in much the same way that they might worry about being replaced by anyone else. That’s what labour laws are for, to ensure a level playing field and prevent a race to the bottom.

    Mainly computer programming.

    Have worked with many. It’s never worked out for once reason or another. Mainly because they had a very different concept of what ‘computer programming’ entails as opposed to what we needed.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    It’s perfectly valid for people to be worried about the importation of foreign labour threatening their jobs in much the same way that they might worry about being replaced by anyone else.

    Are these the jobs that you think we should be rid of, and no one should be doing, because of automation, or because everyone should do everything for themselves instead of being lazy? Perhaps people should be worrying about automation more than their foreign born coworkers.

    It’s never worked out for once reason or another.

    You’ve been unlucky. I’ve found similar with programmers working offshore, but those programmers I know that have worked here in the UK have been amazing. Proper boffins who were also very professional… a rare combination. The best one I’ve worked with moved to Amsterdam once his first kid was on the way… it’s become a real hotspot for shit hot talent since the Brexit vote.

    dissonance
    Full Member

    Mainly computer programming.

    The current system works just fine for the big sweatshops. Bring people over for 6 months or so to get trained and then cycle them as needed.
    Once the staff come over fulltime they need paying UK wages.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Once the staff come over fulltime they need paying UK wages.

    And, more importantly, are free to chose who they work for.

    dissonance
    Full Member

    And, more importantly, are free to chose who they work for.

    True. The yankee green card system is far “superior” in that respect for the employers.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Maybe. But the general point still stands. Given the view of UK voters and Keir Starmer on immigration it would appear that your pro-immigration/free movement at all costs opinion isn’t shared. Wonder why that is? Racists obviously! 😀

    England Dazh not UK please!

    here we have a pro EU pro immigration coalition running holyrood and the other parties do not bother with anti EU anti Immigrant rhetoric because it gains no traction

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Have worked with many. It’s never worked out for once reason or another.

    Now there’s a surprise.

    ransos
    Free Member

    Now there’s a surprise.

    On the previous page you were complaining about a supposed personal attack.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    On this page he claimed I didn’t understand sarcasm.

    Edit: if you read back over a few pages you’ll find a few of my light-hearted/vaguely amusing if you’ve got asense of humour being taken literally (mainly by Ernie). That the way he operates, he takes things which ever way enables him to attack his adversary, because that’s how he sees us – adversaries.

    As for Dazh he been coming out with stuff which other posters have pointed out are “dog whistles” or “Daily Mail comments section”. Of course I’d understood his sarcasm but did an Ernie, and here I’ve palyed the same silly game, and you’ve noticed and picked me up on it which is great because you must think it unacceptable. Well don’t discrimate, if if’s unacceptable for me to use sarcasm point it out to the others to – ah, but you’re on their side so you can’t do that.

    This place sometimes, as another couple of posters popped in to say STW politics threads are not worth getting invloved in… . But I do for a couple of days, now and then. More fool me. It’s sunny tomporrow.

    ransos
    Free Member

    Well don’t discrimate, if if’s unacceptable for me to use sarcasm point it out to the others to – ah, but you’re on their side so you can’t do that.

    Please show me where I said it’s unacceptable.

    MSP
    Full Member

    England Dazh not UK please!

    here we have a pro EU pro immigration coalition running holyrood and the other parties do not bother with anti EU anti Immigrant rhetoric because it gains no traction

    10 years ago travelling the UK in a German registered car, it was Scotland where I encountered the most open racism. I don’t believe that Scotland is any less racist, just that the “independent Scottish” movement has currently aligned the racists more against English rule, and being pro European is a weapon in that fight.

    The welcoming Scottish utopia that you paint a picture of is not real.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Now you’re definitely joining in with the bullying, Ransos. You haven’t joined in with the debate for several pages and then make post clearly intended to provoke and pick a fight, because that’s what you do. Anything to say about Starmer?

    I stil think he’s pandering to the wrong people and ignoring the fact that most Labour voters regret leaving the EU.

    I had a look at the Guardian earlier, even they’ve got nothing to say about Starmer other than his approach to Brexit.

Viewing 40 posts - 16,521 through 16,560 (of 17,288 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

Search the forum using the power of Google

Thanks for popping by - why not stay a while?IT'S FREE

Sign up as a Singletrack Member and you can leave comments on stories, use the classified ads, and post in our forums, do quizzes and more.

Join us, join in, it’s free, and fun.

Latest Singletrack podcast episode is now live - Talking about warranties - Listen now