Subsidies funded by a tax on energy suppliers to fund the subsidies.

Wrong way round again. The subsidies came first, then the tax later. How many times does this simple concept regarding govt financing have to be explained before people like yourself will accept this simple established fact? The govt spends first, then taxes back later. You can argue about the level of tax and who pays it, but the spending, especially in the case of capital investment, always comes first.

I don’t think it matters which came first. The fact is the industry pays for it’s own subsidies.

You can argue about the level of tax and who pays it, but the spending, especially in the case of capital investment, always comes first.

And the vast majority of that was private, foreign private and forign private with a state stake. Check out the UK government’s stake in wind farms as a proportion of the total, it’s tiny. Google Orsted.

Edit: I’ve Googled for you, here you go:

https://news.sky.com/story/nearly-half-of-uks-offshore-wind-capacity-owned-by-state-owned-foreign-entities-analysis-shows-12705500

I don’t think it matters which came first.

Of course it does. Would it have got off the ground without govt intervention? No. Private investment only ramped up once they were certain it would be profitable.

The fact is the industry pays for it’s own subsidies.

No the customer does or, if things get to bad, then the taxpayer does.

Check out the UK government’s stake in wind farms as a proportion of the total, it’s tiny. Google Orsted.

Your arguments seem to be bouncing all over the place. Their direct stake is irrelevant to whether or not the windfarms were heavily subsidised to make them financially viable.
That we dont have a proper stake is in at least part down to a flawed approach to free markets where its okay just to hand money over to private companies but not to actually have a stake in return for that cash.

As a casual example. Just look at nuclear power plants. The only way they will happen is if the government carries all the risk and guarantees a profit.
Without that good luck getting banks to lend.

Edit: I’ve Googled for you, here you go:

How kind of you. So to support your argument that its all down to the private sector you have, ermmm, provided a link showing at least half of the windfarms are supported by governments. Just not our own.

You should check out the history of those windfarms. Wind farms have always been profitable in many European countries even without subsidies because the electricty prices are so high. German consumers were paying three times what we were in France when I spent time there about 10 years back. Subsidies, no subsidies it was always going to be viable, sure British companies wanted help but the Europeans didn’t need it to build viable wind farms. While Britain was still enjoying cheap north sea gas other countries were already looking to sustainable alternatives they could sell to consumers prepared to pay the price.

The history will also tell you that Siemens in Germany was one of the companies that led the way while Britain had one windmill in Avonmouth IIRC. Sure governments have jumped on the bandwagon and good luck to them, but the origins are very much with private innovation.

Nuclear is one one sector I agree is state dominated, and rightly so, the military potential needs to be in state hands.

You should check out the history of those windfarms. Wind farms have always been profitable in many European countries even without subsidies because the electricty prices are so high.

You might want to go and look at why the prices are high. Germany for example had statutory tariffs to pay for subsidies for renewables.
They also provided subsidies and support for the manufacturers.
Basically the complete opposite of free markets. It is and was a sector with major state intervention to direct towards certain goals.

While Britain was still enjoying cheap north sea gas other countries were already looking to sustainable alternatives they could sell to consumers prepared to pay the price.

That would be the “cheap” gas sold at international rates due to the UKs belief in the free market and so no real government involvement from the 80s onwards?

So to bring it back full circle and the point at which I got involved, do you guys really think that Brexit isn’t going negatively impact British workers having gone through just one example where internal investment whether foreign private or foreign state/private has dwarfed UK investment?

Ed no one has said brexit hasn’t had a negative impact. But the fact is we are no longer in the EU, so worrying about what might have been is pointless, and saying that the UK govt has no power to help UK workers is clearly wrong. Even outside the EU the UK is a very rich and very powerful economy. With the right leadership and policy it can still support its population and provide the high quality jobs and prosperity which are desperately needed.

Ernie – please withdraw the accusation of lying

Go back and read the thread if you want to attack me. I have no issue over things I have said . I have huge issue with you making up a total misrepresentation of my position

sorry dude – your memory is letting you down

I just have and you are indeed right – you said MPs might accept Sunak but the membership wouldn’t. I apologise unreservedly.

Edukator Free Member

So to bring it back full circle

This is the Starmer thread if you want to do a full circle you need to get back to Starmer. It all kicked off with the accusation that Starmer is apparently pandering to racists. So what’s the conclusion – is he?

I just have and you are indeed right – you said MPs might accept Sunak but the membership wouldn’t. I apologise unreservedly.

No worries and thank you

Unlike you to be innaccurate

Sir Keir Starmer has just been awarded “politician of the year” at the Spectator Awards by the Spectator, the UK’s oldest Tory magazine.

He received a huge round of applause by Tory MPs and others in attendance. pic.twitter.com/PcE5wCS2TI

— Tory Fibs (@ToryFibs) November 23, 2022

Just join the Tory party and take all the centrists that have got your back with you? (That said he’s even upset Ian Dunt with his immigration tone so maybe they won’t go with him.)

You know I’m starting to despise this guy – he has no actual time for anything remotely progressive (green-bonds yawn) but loads of time for all the establishment garbage that is part of the problem.

No meaningful change in my lifetime that’s for sure.

^^^didn’t Corbyn win that too a couple of years ago?

Jeremy Corbyn has won the Spectator Awards Politician of the Year 2017.

I am sure this will make headline news in Britain, just like the UN Peace Award Jeremy Corbyn received in Geneva earlier this month did

Anyway, Congratulations, Jeremy Corbyn! pic.twitter.com/UOryAhssNm

— Socialist Voice ⭑ (@SocialistVoice) December 30, 2017

[actually that’s wrong, strangely for socialist voice. It was parliamentarian of the year. Whatever. It really doesn’t mean the Spectator is on Starmer’s side – is anyone suggesting that it does? Or just that he shouldn’t go to any parties where there are lots of journalists, some of whom are right wing?]

But the fact is we are no longer in the EU, so worrying about what might have been is pointless,

You’ve spent two pages arguing against the need for a Swiss style deal, Dazh, claiming Britian is just fine on its own and th egovernment can spend its way out of the current mess. I’m not worrying about what might have been, I’m arguing in favour of a solution.

So what’s the conclusion – is he?

You’ve obviously missed a couple of pages of Starmer’s lack of enthusiasm for the EU, Ernie. As for Tory or Labour racism:

racial discrimination
Definition(s)

Any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights

Judge Tory and Labour policy and British laws on that basis and draw your own conclusions.

Whatever. It really doesn’t mean the Spectator is on Starmer’s side – is anyone suggesting that it does? Or just that he shouldn’t go to any parties where there are lots of journalists, some of whom are right wing?]

No it simply means he has time for the right wing press. Whereas there’s a gaping hole of actual issues in his other areas of PR.

Starmer reminds of the MP in – in the loop.

Simon Foster : I have to say, Karen, I do have a clear strategy on this, which is I’m playing the long game.

Karen Clarke : They’ve bounced us into a short game, and you just sat there like a… What do you call it in England? A ****

You’ve spent two pages arguing against the need for a Swiss style deal,

Did I? News to me. I’d be very supportive of a Swiss style deal. What I was arguing about was that UK govt investment via fiscal/monetary policy (and other related policy such as industrial strategy and labour laws etc) would have a much more direct and beneficial impact than simply trading more with the EU. Trade is important, but without the policy to ensure the proceeds of that trade ends up in the pockets of workers it’s just a mechanism to make the rich richer and entrench economic inequality.

Yes, Dazh, by simple deduction:

Starmer’s position on brexit is the main thing he’s got right.

Starmer rejected a Swiss type deal as recently as yesterday and you spent time arguing for government spending as an alternative to closer ties with Europe to boost the UK economy.

I’m pleased to see you now state you are in favour of a Swiss type deal, 🙂 and that Starmer has it wrong. Pity Starmer isn’t in favour of a Swiss deal as from today’s Guradian:

And 88% of those who voted Labour in 2019 think leave was the wrong decision. (Keir Starmer and shadow chancellor Rachel Reeves please note!)

Well he has just doubled down on no FOM no SM no CU no swiss style deal no hope and no future

idiot

I was a supporter but no more

As much as I hate the Tories I will never vote for a pro Brexit party
I don’t want this shit show on my hands.

I don’t want this shit show on my hands.

Well unless you live in a seat where the Lib Dem’s are the challengers you’ll be voting for more tories. You’ll be prioritising your own dislike of brexit over the well being and lives of millions of people who are desperate for their removal.

These utter morons are more concerned about magical and mythical financial constraints than fixing actual big problems.

What does @EdBalls think about Labour’s ‘Green New Deal’ policy?

‘If it looks like climate change is the exception, the thing where we’re allowed to borrow with debt rising, that will be a big problem for Labour’ #AndrewNeilShow@AFNeil pic.twitter.com/r7191fVGeE

— Channel 4 (@Channel4) November 27, 2022

World’s on fire Ed – but Rachel Reeves’ spreadsheet says some balls about debt/GDP…

Strictly about your level Ed?

All recent opinion polls put LibDem support on single figures, less than they managed at the last general election.

The very latest opinion poll puts voter support for political parties that have accepted brexit at 78%

Westminster Voting Intention:

LAB: 48% (+1)
CON: 25% (-1)
LDM: 9% (=)
RFM: 5% (-1)
GRN: 5% (=)

Via @YouGov, TBC.
Changes w/ 15-16 Nov.

— Election Maps UK (@ElectionMapsUK) November 26, 2022

“…accepted brexit…”

Love it.

Well unless you live in a seat where the Lib Dem’s are the challengers you’ll be voting for more tories.

Or a seat that the LibDems currently hold. Although ironically despite polling less than in the last general election I believe that recent seat predictions suggest that the LibDems would actually increase their total number of seats under present conditions.

Apart from in Scotland where over 50% vote and will vote in future for pro EU parties.

Starmer will lose labour significant votes on that policy

Stupid and self defeating baking in a 4% compounding loss to the economy

Idiot

Just another reason why we have to leave the sinking ship of the UK

@edukator that poll seems to be missing the third biggest party by vote share 🤔

And seats in the HOC

Just another reason why we have to leave the sinking ship of the UK

If only you were allowed to. I had the good fortune to marry into the EU (Belgian wife) so I can actually escape easily once I hit retirement.

If I’m given a vote as promised it’ll go to the Lib Dems, Dazh. An elction is rarely if ever won by one vote so I vote with my convictions. Britain would be a btter place if everyone did that. Tactical voting just distorts the political landscape.

@edukator that poll seems to be missing the third biggest party by vote share 🤔

Could you link it please, squirrelking. I think you might be confusing me with someone else because I haven’t linked a poll or mentioned one that’s missed the third biggest party.

Has starmwr said how he is going to “make Brexit work”?
In fact is there anyway of making it work without freedom of movement?
I know starmwr has to keep the **** sweet but he should really be giving the million who marched on London a glimmer of hope.
Brexit isn’t purely about leaving the EU, it’s about giving the people of hate a flag to rally around.
Political genius or ****? Time will tell.
I was going to vote labour as I assumed he would quietly take us back into the single market.
Wtf he has gone all farage I don’t know.He should have just been as non committal about Brexit as he is everything else.

Has starmwr said how he is going to “make Brexit work”?

Nope because as we all know there is no way of making it work. 4% loss to the economy compounding each year. thousands of EU doctors missing from the NHS, tens of thousands of EU nurses

SMEs going bust or transferring their business to the EU

UK exports down

etc etc

All over my Facebook I get things from various labour for Europe groups.
Can they stay members of the labour party given that what they want is against labour policy? Should starmwr come down heavily on these dangerous fanatics and kick them out?

@edukator that poll you posted doesn’t have SNP on it. TJ did however correct me that it’s third biggest party by seats rather than popular vote. My mistake.

I repeat, which poll, squirrelking? You do tend to dispute everything I say (when you’re not distorting what I said) and now it appears you claim everything you dispute has been posted by me.

Should starmwr come down heavily on these dangerous fanatics and kick them out?

Do they show any left wing tendencies? If so then yup definitely need them out.

Seeing the wailing on here only comfirms to me that Starmer is right to want to move on from the brexit issue. There are much more important issues to be dealing with right now, like how we’re going to unclog our hospitals by sorting out the care sector. Training the new generation of carers, nurses and doctors will be central to that and labour at least seem to understand that. The other big issue is how to run the economy so that the proceeds of economic growth end up in the pockets of the voters rather than a tiny few corporations and billionaires. Not being in the EU will be a big part of that solution. I think bringing back FoM so that the middle classes can revisit their plans to retire to the Dordogne or have a second home in the costas is fairly low down the list.

LOL
Edit to add what made me laugh: the “working class” jealousy of the “middle classes” – Corbyn is as middle class as they come and Starmer privileged class.

@edukator that poll you posted doesn’t have SNP on it.

The only poll that I can see posted recently was posted by me. It is a YouGov poll and no it doesn’t include the SNP share of the vote.

Here is a recent Redfield and Wilton poll that does. It puts the total vote of parties that have accepted brexit at 82%, with the LibDems on a smaller share than they received last general election.

Latest GB Voting Intention (20 November 2022)

LOL

Not sure what you find funny. I know you guys like asking the question about what the benefits of brexit are (answer not many BTW). But you can also easily ask what benefits rejoining would bring. Again the answer is not many. Especially on the the issue of freedom of movement. We need wholesale reform of the economy and labour markets so that we have a workforce which is trained properly and paid well enough that they want to do the jobs which we can’t currently fill. Filling all those jobs with foreign workers is a temporary sticking plaster which allows employers to ignore their obligation to provide the training and salaries which are needed by their workforce.

Edit to add what made me laugh: the “working class” jealousy of the “middle classes”

FYI I’m one of the middle class who had a vague long term plan to bugger off abroad when the kids disappear. Not going to happen now for obvious reasons. I don’t like being stuck on this white supremacist island any more than the next lefty liberal bedwetter but I’m not going to pretend it’s an important issue for government.

The very latest opinion poll puts voter support for political parties that have accepted brexit at 78%

95% for parties that have accepted free market capitalist economics too….