Why is Scotland so pro EU and pro immigration and why does no one not even the tory party ramp up the anti eu anti immigration rhetoric here?

Because the weather is so bad and the cities so grim that you have to bribe foreign workers to come live there to replace the people who move to England?

and it’s hard to argue that the EU has been a plus when folks in some bits of Wakey (for instance) have seen their communities steadily fall apart

The other aspect of this is that the pro-EU people often portrayed the main benefits of EU membership as mainly about the money provided by things like the EU regional development fund. The trouble with that is that in northern working class towns people see that as handouts. They don’t want handouts (especially from the germans and the french), they want to stand on their own two feet via well-paying jobs and affordable housing/bills. The EU did very little to provide either of those.

I don’t disagree; which makes it all the more important that folks are trained and educated and there’s investment to create jobs because that the only way we’ll get to a point where re-joining the EU makes sense to the folks who voted out. Make those people feel like it’s in their interests to rejoin (because they have skills to take advantage of it) and it’ll be a piece of cake,

Lolz at Dazh

Nickc – but you can tell them jobs have gone because of Tory brexit

I think I’d rather say; vote Labour and we’ll make sure you can get trained into a good job? As you rightly said, give folks some leadership, give them something to vote for rather than against?

Cart before horse Nickc

labour need to tell folk that leaving the EU has made their lives worse as its true and blame the tories.

abour need to tell folk that leaving the EU has made their lives worse as its true

I’m not sure that true for folks who experienced 20-30 years of underinvestment though, I don’t think Brexit (tory or otherwise) has made that much difference to them.

I don’t think Brexit (tory or otherwise) has made that much difference to them.

I spent a whole year on the brexit thread trying to get this point across. Hope you have more success. 😉

Because theres double the % migrant population in England?

Ignoring English migrants, yeah?

Do the things in the right order, to get the results you want.

The problem is you are still repeating the hard right lies and misdirections.
The EU actually provided support for those folk who had been abandoned by the tories and the centrists of new labour.
An open and honest policy would be to acknowledge why people voted for brexit but point out how it failed them, as it was designed to do, and then what can be done about it.

We have tried your approach of not dealing with the hard right lies. It turned out shit.
You want to reinforce failure.

I don’t think Brexit (tory or otherwise) has made that much difference to them.

Apart from increased unemplyment and falling job opportunities along with the loss of EU grants for regional stuff.

I spent a whole year on the brexit thread trying to get this point across. Hope you have more success.

Definitely did.

Brexit is a product of a much more complex and difficult to pin down economic landscape. It’s become convenient to use it as an explanation for many metrics.

There is a general headline tone that Brexit has caused all economic problems if you’re on the left. Things are pretty overlapped and so messed up now that it’s impossible to extrapolate what caused what.

It’s very clear we need a new model. The old one is on fumes.

Where the hell are the great political thinkers and ideas ? Why do we keep repeating all the stupid mistakes?

I think the establishment is just expecting it all to snap back into place.

Next couple of years will be interesting for sure.

Carla Denyer, the Green party’s co-leader, said:

Six years on from the referendum, we can see clearly there are no economic opportunities from Brexit; nor any social or environmental benefits. Brexit has been a disaster.

The Office for Budget Responsibility said last year that the impact of Brexit on the UK economy will be worse in the long run than the coronavirus pandemic. So Keir Starmer talking of the importance of economic growth within the current Brexit arrangements is to ignore the elephant in the room standing in the way of economic success.

The Green party wants the UK to rejoin the customs union, maintain alignment with EU law where it offers environmental and social protections and reinstate freedom of movement. We also want to rejoin the EU at some point in the future when the conditions are right. And the majority of Brits now agree with us. In a recent poll, 53% of people said they want to rejoin the EU compared to 34% who want to stay out.

Ignoring English migrants, yeah?

Dunno just went off the official headline stats for “people not born in england/scotland”.

I was just making the point that its easier to make less of an issue of something thats less of an issue

Kerley – without fixing the mess of brexit then improving anything else is almost impossible. Its the first thing that needs to be done that would then lead on to all other stuff being easier to fix

I don’t agree with this.

You’ve just got invest in what resources you have and match with the appropriate available labour. Then spend.

Asking either current government to come up with an actual plan is the problem rather than being out of the EU.

But the year on year loss that brexit has caused is a huge additional drag

That’s your logic again TJ… we have stifled trade and locked down our workforce yet some how just have to “make the most of it”… no, it doesn’t make any sense… and no, we can’t fix things within our current agreements with the EU. Starmer could tell the voters that now, but all it would do is keep Labour out of office for yet another term. That’s the choice he faces. Winning the argument and being out of office after the next election will help no one but the Tories. It might look daft from up there, or down in London, but that’s how things stand across lots of key seats here in the middle. Our relationships in Europe will have to be redressed, but nothing will happen this side of 2025.

In which case a Starmer government will fail – and that wisdom is wrong anyway not just IMO but wider analysis. without a closer relationship with the EU a Starmer government has not one but both hands tied behind his back. 4 billion a year loss from brexit at a minimum and that compounds year on year

Data on voting intentions and attitudes to immigration examined by the Institute for Public Policy Research (IPPR) suggests that a more flexible approach would attract many more swing voters than it would repel for Labour.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/nov/23/uk-politicians-win-swing-voters-more-open-migration-policy-report-finds

It is the concentration on swing voters as the only ones that matter that is a big part of why we are in this mess. Elections have been won in the centre because that is where they have been fought, taking for granted the traditional labour voters has driven them to be disenfranchised and susceptible to populism (as well as allowing the supposed centrists to be guided to the political right). Instead of fighting for a few hundred thousand swing voters, there are more gains to be made by fighting for the millions of disenfranchised.

It’s not about “the centre” it’s about demographic spread. You need to get the older voters in the towns and suburbs to vote across the country to get a spread of seats. Labour getting bigger and bigger support from younger voters in the big cities doesn’t take enough seats off the Tories. The fate of the UK is tied to these older non-urban voters, amongst whom are there are far too many overly motivated by immigration and Brexit. Depressing, but something Labour can’t ignore.

they want to stand on their own two feet via well-paying jobs and affordable housing/bills. The EU did very little to provide either of those.

It’s not the “EU’s” job to make a country better to live in, that’s the country politicians job.

The EU’s job is to create a level playing field across its member countries, and then it’s up to the countries to ‘exploit’ this by creating policies that help their businesses & citizens – note that the countries that do best in the EU are also the ones that do best globally.

The EU definitely succeeded here, you’ve only to look at the improvements in the UK since we joined, and before we left…

Starmer could tell the voters that now, but all it would do is keep Labour out of office for yet another term

I disagree. I think he would gain far more votes and seats than he would lose if he was honest and presented a positive case for the EU. at the moment he is losing so many votes either to abstension or pro EU parties.

He is concentrating too much on appeasing racists in a few seats and thus losing far more in other seats.

He is concentrating too much on appeasing racists in a few seats and thus losing far more in other seats.

Yes. He is. Welcome to FPTP. He needs to win seats off the Conservatives, not weigh the vote in seats Labour already have. That means pandering to a certain group of voters who are not at the centre of UK politics at all, when it comes to migration they are far more reactionary than the majority of people here, and Brexit has reaffirmed and consolidated that for them. Trying to change their view of immigration and Europe now is a losing battle. What a mess.

‘It’s not the “EU’s” job to make a country better to live in, that’s the country politicians job.’

Bingo. The reason parts of the UK are so disadvantaged and the whole country has skidding productivity, growth is that there’s been no UK government policy to change that. Industries have died and it’s been largely been left to the market to fix that, with little investment or promotion even though that’s going to be required to make it happen in a meaningful way (because everyone else does it).
That’s been a deliberate UK government policy, based on free market dogma.

But suggesting the UK rejoin the EU as a key policy is toxic, no matter how good an idea. Better relations is a palatable start

And by doing so he is giving up on seats in the south and in Scotland

Public opinion has shifted and is still moving. he is fighting yesterdays battles.

The line he is taking and you approve of will cost him more seats than it gains IMO

But suggesting the UK rejoin the EU as a key policy is toxic,

Thats the opposite of what the polls show. His “make brexit work” is impossible and a vote loser

The polls say people think leaving was a mistake. Are they also saying people want to rejoin, with the inevitable multi year circus that entails?

He is concentrating too much on appeasing racists

So why isn’t he appeasing racists like many other European politicians and political leaders, some of them in office, currently do?

Or is he only interested in this weird anti-european racism which middle-class liberals are obsessed with screaming about?

How about some proper racism which many French, Italian, and Scandinavian, politicians understand?

Here’s an example of proper racism from a “centre-left” European government:

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/may/25/zero-asylum-seekers-denmark-forces-refugees-to-return-to-syria

I disagree. I think he would gain far more votes and seats than he would lose if he was honest and presented a positive case for the EU

In the “Red Wall” seats, the voters there want their voices (That they think the EU = uncontrolled immigration*) heard, telling them all about the joys of the EU would be as welcome as a bucket of sick. The speech yesterday was aimed at a specific group of people that Labour need to vote Labour again.  The election is 2 years away, Starmer needs to get a group pf people of unknown size and voting intent back to thinking that their best interests lay with voting Labour again.

*this is entirely imaginary, but it is well ingrained in the communities, you can’t win by telling these folks that their beliefs are stupid and unfounded.

How would you feel if a politician that wants your vote tells you the things you don’t believe; are in fact true?

middle-class liberals are obsessed with screaming about?

Boo! Middle-class liberals! Collaborating with other countries! Welcoming immigrants! Boo! Hiss!

Plenty of racism, populism and use of immigration fears in politics the world over Ernie. Countries in the EU included. Everyone knows that. Being aware and wary of it isn’t just a UK concern. But while talking about UK politics, it can’t be ignored that the anti-immigrant vote is now firm in the UK, and can’t be ignored by the big parties, sadly. UKIP won without winning a seat in the UK parliament. At least for now. Trying to upturn that before the next election is the most likely route to another 5 years of Tory government. After 2025 things might shift though. This working-class liberal hasn’t given up hope longer term.

How would you feel if a politician that wants your vote tells you the things you don’t believe; are in fact true?

Well it depends if they are true or not.
What he should be doing is pointing out that brexit wasnt the answer to their issues and explaining why and then saying what he will do to fix it.
Point out what the actual levels were and the impact. Yes those communities were screwed over but brexit wasnt the answer.
By burying the head in the sand isnt pragmatism its surrender. If an alternative isnt provided then the lies become the norm and then the pushers get to push the balance even further.

I don’t think Brexit (tory or otherwise) has made that much difference to them.I don’t think Brexit (tory or otherwise) has made that much difference to them.

They’re waiting longer for hospital treatment. 130 000 unfilled vacancies of which some undeniably created by EU workers leaving the UK.

They’re paying more for food, disproportionately more than EU residents because the pound has fallen making imports more expensive and there are shortages due to driver shortages since the EU drivers went home. Some home grown foods rot in fields because there are no EU workers to pick them. 80% of Britains excess in inflation compared to the EU has been attributed to Brexit.

People have lost there jobs in various industries which have lost EU work. Higher unemployment inevitably leads to lower wages, it’s supply and demand. There aren’t enough nurses but people in the city and some industries have lost there jobs. Traders unforunately don’t seem willing to retrain as doctors or nurses. Trade in goods is down in real terms and well below what it would have been if Britain had remained in the EU. That’s lost jobs. Various studies show Britain has become less competetive, againthat means lost jobs.

Going to the seaside you’re more likely to find the bathing beach closed due to pollution.

You’re in denial about Brexit, Dazh. IIRC correctly you were one of the first to say you’d vote against but then joined the Brexit-apologist-will-of-the-people gang and have now entered a phase of denial. I don’t know where you go from here, you’ve cornered yourself as your denialist position is less and less tenable as events unfold and Brits become poorer – as predicted.

But rejoining the EU is half a generation away, not in the next election. Labour need to win the next election and it will be fought on the cost of living not Brexit.

All true Ed. It’s not Dazh that’s in denial though, it’s the people he’s talking about. It’ll take a decade of this shit (sometimes literally shit) before the emotional heat is taken out of the Brexit debate, and the UK (what’s left of it) can start properly engaging with what it has done and how to put it right. Alignment and closer cooperation as a non EU member is where we’ll end up, but Labour fighting an election on that in the near future would be political suicide in England. They’re proposing baby steps though… trying to sort out the mess on vets, animal and food standards and checks first… which happens to be essential for NI even more than GB. Conservatives will just push divergence out of dogma for another 5 years if they win, making everything harder to resolve longer term.

Well it depends if they are true or not.

Mleh, internet answer. You know full well what the reaction to politicians telling people things that they think are true that you don’t. I would bet money that you’d reject out of hand anything a Tory told you that turned out to be true, in fact you’d be going out of your way to try to find the evidence that it wasn’t true just because it’s a Tory telling you.

And in the meantime labour continues to lose ground in Scotland, in the south of england, in london and in all remain areas.

He is also making the breakup of the UK more likely

there is no solution to NI without a customs border somewhere or rejoining the single market. So by taking this line he is driving people in NI towards a united ireland

His pandering to racists and refusing to even talk about closer co operation with the EU gives the SNP great attack lines making independence more likely

Labour need to win the next election and it will be fought on the cost of living not Brexit.

There is no solution to the cost of living without closer co operation with the EU

His pandering to racists

How do they count the votes of racists differently to those who aren’t racist?

The higher cost of living rise than the EU is Brexit. Or 80% of it is. And the best way to address that is a Swiss type deal which has been suggested by the EU so is most definitely possible. Starmer needs the courage to negotiate a Swiss type deal with the EU and then stand on that basis at the next election. Polls say it would be more likely to win than lose an election; Uk polls put rejoin ahead and EU polls say the majority would support or not object to Britian returing to the fold.

So why isn’t he appeasing racists like many other European politicians and political leaders, some of them in office, currently do?

He is hence his remarks on immigration and his acceptance of the racist mayoral campaign from Burnham

There is no solution to the cost of living without closer co operation with the EU

Agreed. Everyone will get to that point eventually. How much closer will be the debate in future.

And the best way to address that is a Swiss type deal which has been suggested by the EU so is most definitely possible.

Agreed. Something akin to that any way. But you’re an election ahead of us there Ed. The EU have said talks on such a change won’t happen ’till 24/25 at the earliest. The result of that can be put to the public in the election that follows that, if it goes well.