• This topic has 21,586 replies, 377 voices, and was last updated 6 hours ago by dazh.
Viewing 40 posts - 14,961 through 15,000 (of 21,587 total)
  • Sir! Keir! Starmer!
  • dazh
    Full Member

    I don’t care if it’s a wasted vote

    It’s not a wasted vote, in Calderdale, which is a tory-labour ultra marginal it’s a vote for the tories, plain and simple. I too have said I wasn’t going to vote labour, and I still don’t want to, but I’ve accepted this simple logic. If you want more tory govt and more brexit nonsense then carry on. Kelvin have a word will you.. 😄

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    GodI wish he would!! The timidity of the Labour front bench is just depressing

    They should get rid of Starmer and have Angela Rayner as head of the party.

    dazh
    Full Member

    They should get rid of Starmer and have Angela Rayner as head of the party.

    That would be an improvement but will do nothing towards rejoining the EU. Rayner is just as much of an opportunist as Starmer and is no more enthusiastic about rejoining as Starmer is. I don’t know for a fact, but I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s a closet lexiteer.

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middling Edition

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middlin...
    Latest Singletrack Videos
    mattyfez
    Full Member

    It’s not a wasted vote, in Calderdale, which is a tory-labour ultra marginal it’s a vote for the tories, plain and simple. I too have said I wasn’t going to vote labour, and I still don’t want to, but I’ve accepted this simple logic. If you want more tory govt and more brexit nonsense then carry on. Kelvin have a word will you.. 😄

    I would have agreed with you 100% until yesterday, or was it this morning, when Starmer publicly announced his anti-EU Stance.

    Unless there’s a serious shift in Labour policy, then they will not get my vote. Niether will the conservatives, that goes without saying.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Kelvin have a word will you…

    Can we break this out to the pub?

    As an ex LibDem member (boo hiss…) now not just voting for but campaigning for Labour in this seat… there would probably be lots of hard agreeing about what we want… even if the end result is not an agreement on how to vote. I can promise good beer though… which is something… I can’t promise any such positives will come out of further discussion in this thread… 🥴

    dazh
    Full Member

    Niether will the conservatives.

    It doesn’t matter if you’re not voting conservative. Anything other than a vote for labour in Calderdale is a vote for the tories. I don’t like it any more than you do, but that’s the reality of the situation. You can choose to ignore this, but don’t then complain about tory brexit policies when they win again. Who did you vote for in 2019 BTW?

    nickc
    Full Member

    publicly announced his anti-EU Stance.

    Of course he has. It’s going to be a journey from 1.Denial, to 2.****! what have we done?, to 3. We have to make the best of it, to 4. let’s have something like Norway, to 5.rejoining.

    I think we’re at just about at 3 in the last couple of months, but the rest will take ages, my guess is that it’ll take 10 years, maybe longer.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Anything other than a vote for labour in Calderdale is a vote for the tories.

    It’s a pretty binary choice in Calderdale. The Green Party even pulled their candidate last time, and went around campaigning with the Labour members (transparently, still wearing green badges). I’ve had dealings with both the previous LibDem candidates… and they both knew they would and could never win and become MPs. That’s our crazy voting system. In this seat it’s vote Tory, or vote Labour, or essentially spoil your paper. It stinks really. I’d like everyone to vote for their preferred candidate or party, rather than have to vote tactically… but in this seat, you vote for Craig Whittaker, or you vote Labour to try and remove him. Everything else is shouting at clouds and helping the Tories win the seat. Bring on some kind of PR. But for now deal with the world as it is in front of us.

    As for the “this policy is miles from what I want” feeling (which I share)… on Europe, and anything else for that matter, all you can do is ask who is more likely to move things in your direction (check out Whittaker’s voting record), and can win in your seat… again, if we had PR, it would be an entirely different decision to make (and we’d be offered different choices to deal with anyway).

    In addition… I’m hoping Labour will have a different and more engaged parliamentary candidate next time… more on that at a later date… 🤞🏻

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    I respect your views Dazh, but I’m not going to vote for a party Like Labour when they are essentially conservatives.

    Have you considered voting Lib dem?

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    It’s a pretty binary choice in Calderdale.

    It might well be, but i’ll be no part in it.

    rone
    Full Member

    A poitical party needs a unified, concice ideology, if they ever want to get elected.

    Ideologies are very flexible these days and swayed by the above as per dissonance.

    The whole ‘ideology purity’ gets pushed around and drives me crackers – it’s just a Centrist way of saying – yeah we know the world’s rough but we don’t really want to change it enough.

    Besides there’s absolutely nothing ideologically pure about the Labour Party. They are (were) even under Corbyn offering a mixed economy solution. With now a nod to the failings of the current system.

    I agree a new economic model needs to unify them. And they need a much better gameplan. But I suppose individual MPs are never going to be that linear.

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    This is the problem – always thinking about the next GE and not future GE’s. Nobody votes LibDem because nobody votes LibDem. There’s one way to break that cycle and that’s to vote LibDem.

    In the current environment, Labour are unlikely to form the next government anyway and if you genuinely believe that Single Market/Freedom of Movement is essential and it’s not on offer from either Tory or Labour then this is as good a time as any to vote FOR something and not against something else.

    Del
    Full Member

    Edit : .

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Vote for an MP who will change the make up of parliament in your direction. Lots of LibDem votes in a Tory/Labour marginal will be as useful as lots of Labour votes in a Tory/LibDem marginal (or a Tory/SNP marginal)…

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Vote lib dem get Tory

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Have you guys seen the nonsense from Starmer and Sarwar about Scotland? Pure pish.

    dazh
    Full Member

    Have you considered voting Lib dem?

    Same as voting for the tories IMO. Lets not forget the reason we have Johnson in power is because Swinson (who?) and the lib dems bounced Corbyn into an election along with the SNP for entirely parochial short term electoral advantage. And then there was the utterly unforgiveable betrayal in 2010 which has saddled my kids with a massive future student loan debt and damaged the lives of millions with their cut-throat austerity programme. Why the f*** would I ever vote for those principle free scumbags? TBH even if I lived in a LD-Tory marginal I would struggle to vote for them tactically as I can barely tell them apart.

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    Oh come off it Daz.. Swinson was a bit of a dick.. But she’s nothing compared to the colossal dicks that are Starmer and Johnson.

    If you really want a change.. Who will you vote for? Lol.
    Don’t tell me… Labour under starmer? Lol!
    I should probably point out that Swinson is no longer in charge of the Lib Dems, and hasn’t been for quite some time.

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    @kelvin Labour have proven over and over again you can’t trust them.
    The conservatives litteraly run on a manifesto of mis-trust and mis-direction.

    So Who are we left with?

    nickc
    Full Member

    So Who are we left with?

    Depends where you are on the political spectrum I guess, If you’re “of the left”, who is the alternate left wing party who’ll get your vote if not Labour? In any other democracy in Europe the Labour party would be about 3 different parties (the same is true of the Tories for that matter) but we haven’t, so it’s Hobson’s for every-one.

    Pieface
    Full Member

    The referendum was brought about by UKIP forcing Cameron to appease the Leavers in the Tory party, or something like that.

    The route to re-joining has to be the formation of a party that stakes its intentions to the mast to re-join the EU. Even on that single issue they would see a massive number of votes and may force other parties to sit up and think.

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    For sure. That’s why my vote will go to the Liberal Democrats.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    The referendum was brought about by UKIP forcing Cameron to appease the Leavers in the Tory party, or something like that.

    Not quite like that. The first major party to support an in/out EU referendum was the LibDems, it was in their election manifesto.

    When it came to the vote in parliament it was also fully supported by the Labour Party. The vote resulted in 84% voting in favour of a EU membership referendum. You would struggle to find many issues in which the vote in the House is so overwhelming.

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    The first major party to support an in/out EU referendum was the LibDems

    I think we will need a citation on that, and the specific acceptance criteria, boyo….

    kelvin
    Full Member

    The conservatives litteraly run on a manifesto of mis-trust and mis-direction.

    So Who are we left with?

    As that was asked of me… I’ll give the simple answer first… in our seat we can choose to keep returning the Conservative MP (check his voting record if you think this is anything other than the worst possible outcome before us) or vote Labour. That’s the choice locally.

    More generally… in other seats it’s an entirely different choice… because of FPTP. If you choose to ignore the regional variations, and just vote for the party you would most like to have a say in how our country is run… the chances are that you’re just going to get a Conservative MP again, and then we’re a step closer to another Conservative government. I’ll be contributing to Caroline Lucas’ fighting fund, as I have the last two elections, as losing her in the commons and replacing her with another Labour MP would be a loss. In other seats I might well vote LibDem, even in a Labour/LibDem marginal, depending on the candidates. Our voting system is what it is. Voting as if it was a fair democracy is only going to benefit the Conservatives. Voters need to wise up and vote accordingly.

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    ×only if people think Labour is the only alternative.
    When Labour are essentially the same as the Conservatives, it becomes a moot point.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    When Labour are essentially the same as the Conservatives

    If you honestly believe that (check the voting record of our local MP if you really do), then fair enough. You’ll still essentially get two candidates to pick from at the next election… if you can’t tell them apart on how they would vote, act and represent you… I’d be very surprised. That choice is probably years away yet though. That’ll be happening in many, many seats across the UK… and not with the same two parties.

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    This 2 party lab/con BS needs to end. It’s not helping anyone.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Voting in a way that gets you the same Conservative MP, again, isn’t going to achieve that. But I agree. Both our “pick from the top two” voting option in so many seats, and the result of that… most MPs being from two parties (South of the border) and having to the tow the line of their party, and our PM always coming from one of those two parties, needs to come to an end. We should have more choices, wider choices, and all our votes should count even if our choice is not one of the two main parties. The only short term hope is a Labour minority government pushed towards voting reform by other parties. Longer term there are other ways (including Labour MPs and members pushing for it).

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    SO you’d suggest I vote labour then? really?

    kelvin
    Full Member

    In Calderdale? Absolutely. Check out our MPs voting record. And when the time comes… pin down the Labour candidate (they won’t hide away from questions the way Whitikar does) and ask them the difficult questions you want answered.

    oldmanmtb2
    Free Member

    Not sure Mr Starmers position on Brexit is the best strategy… he has lost my support (not that it will make any difference)

    We need to be a Norway. The rest of the world “trade” is bollocks.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    We need to be a Norway. The rest of the world “trade” is bollocks.

    Agree entirely. Somehow it’s been framed that a Norway style agreement isn’t Brexit. Bonkers isn’t it. Labour MPs being whipped against it when the houses of parliament were looking for a future arrangement to replace EU membership was part of the big “bait’n’switch” of a vote to leave the EU being changed into a decision to end all Single Market involvement (apart from for NI). We’ve crossed and blown up that bridge now though. The damage was all done years ago. We’re not going to be a Norway now, even though changes to RoW trade will never make up what we are losing in our big local market. Our balance of trade has gone the wrong way fast… etc, etc… but all this changes nothing politically for now. There is no quick route back (for England&Wales), if there is one at all. Of course, given the option, I would vote for that to happen… as would a small majority of Brits… but it simply isn’t going to happen for decades, if at all.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    The first major party to support an in/out EU referendum was the LibDems

    I think we will need a citation on that, and the specific acceptance criteria, boyo….

    It’s up to you whether you support the claim or not.

    The LibDems were strongly in support of an EU in/out referendum long before both the Tories and Labour.

    In fact the LibDems were so strongly in favour of an EU referendum that their current leader was kicked out of the House of Commons for being particularly disruptive over the issue;

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2008/feb/26/liberaldemocrats.houseofcommons

    A Liberal Democrat frontbencher was thrown out of the House of Commons today for protesting against the Speaker’s decision not to allow a vote on a referendum on European Union membership

    Ed Davey, the party’s foreign affairs spokesman, was banned for the rest of the day from attending the Commons chamber and from voting after he refused to accept the Speaker’s ruling.

    The Lib Dems had tabled an amendment for debate today calling for a referendum on Britain’s continuing membership of the EU.

    The party claims a referendum on Britain’s continuing EU membership would be in the national interest because it would enable voters to settle once and for all the question of whether Britain should stay in.

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    In Calderdale? Absolutely. Check out our MPs voting record.

    Over my cold, hard, dead body. I’ll be voting Lib dem in the next GE.

    breatheeasy
    Free Member

    EU aren’t going to let us back in if we have a referendum that comes out close again. Even if it isn’t that close.

    The only real way is to get rid of the Tories, accept brexit as it is and edge back into working more closely with the EU. Once the ‘benefits’ are more obvious then we can talk about joining again. So maybe this Starmer announcement makes sense from that point of view. Don’t rattle the cagwe of the Red Wall that is flaky.

    I’d love to rejoin tmrw but I really think its baby steps again.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    What he said.

    Brexit allowed a big swing in one direction… that can draw people into the idea that a swing a third of the way back in the same kind of timescale is possible… it isn’t… everything from here on is going to be slow and incremental… there’s no will in EU countries to do anything else, and no political route in front of us (or Labour) right now either. Not for those of us in England, anyway.

    Helping Craig Whittaker to keep his vote on these issues in the House of Commons will only aid those who want a constant battle with the rest of Europe, while removing our rights and sending the country backwards. Please, check his voting record if you think that letting him keep his seat is a good outcome.

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    Well **** me then, you’ll get the government you deserve, just don’t try to blame the moderates for it. It’s your shit pile, and you can flipping well eat it.

    Bon appitete !!

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Well, I fully expect to get another Conservative government returned at the next election… but I sure as dammit will use my tiny individual vote to try and stop that happening. Don’t think the Conservative’s “battle with Europe” is over yet. They’ll keep it alive no matter what the damage to our lives. If your want closer ties to, or even just cordial relations with, the rest of Europe, you need to try and get this government out.

    argee
    Full Member

    15000? 😁

Viewing 40 posts - 14,961 through 15,000 (of 21,587 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.