Viewing 40 posts - 14,921 through 14,960 (of 15,926 total)
  • Sir! Keir! Starmer!
  • Speeder
    Full Member

    Oh FFS!

    Why are they so sodding scared of suggesting, actually, this was a really bad idea and maybe we could do something else? We all now know there’s no good Brexit. This just precludes that coalition with the LDs and any credibility with remain/rejoiners which by now I suspect is the majority.

    I don’t get it.

    dissonance
    Full Member

    Corbyn spent his political career playing largely against his own team.

    Did he?
    Or did he play against his own team when his own team swapped shirts?
    not quite so simple

    dazh
    Full Member

    The was no way that the rest of the PLP was just going to shrug and say “ah, now you’re leader, the rest of us will just fall in line”

    Do we really have to do this again? As I’ve pointed out many times, there’s an enormous difference between voting against the govt in parliament on a point of principle, and calling your leader a ‘f***** racist’ or telling voters not to vote for your party. Labour MPs weren’t opposing Corbyn on a point of principle, they were being spiteful petulant children who couldn’t accept that they had lost in a democratic vote.

    Even at the height of the Iraq war and after I don’t ever recall Corbyn calling Blair a war criminal or telling voters not to vote labour, even though he would have been justified given the evidence of Blair’s lies and deception. He never wavered from campaigning for the labour party and labour candidates. FFS, even now after they tried to kick him out of the party he’s not said anything against it.

    nickc
    Full Member

    I don’t get it.

    A large portion of the leave vote was labour supporters. I don’t think that it’s practical (or possible) to campaign for or try to negotiate a way back in to the single market so quickly – not least I think is that the EU will be mindful that the next Tory govt will likely try to reverse it again.

    That time has passed, we now need to make the best of what we’ve got.

    dazh
    Full Member

    This just precludes that coalition with the LDs and any credibility with remain/rejoiners which by now I suspect is the majority.

    First off the Lib Dems would ever enter into a coalition with Labour, and recent history suggests the exact opposite would be more likely. Secondly there’s no evidence of a majority for rejoining the EU. Like it or not the only option is to make being outside the EU work. Labour lost the last election after adopting a policy which enabled the cancelling of brexit. They’ll lose the next one and many after that if they even talk about rejoining. It’s pretty much the only thing that Starmer has got right, and it’s a pity he didn’t adopt this position in the run up to thee 2019 election, we might not have a tory govt right now.

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    the fact that Corbyn was serially “treasonous” his entire political career

    There is nothing treasonous about voting in line with the values and aims of the Labour Party. The same can’t be said about those who vote in clear defiance of Labour values and aims.

    Corbyn has voted consistently throughout his parliamentary career exactly as you would expect a Labour MP to vote, which undoubtedly was a significant reason why the majority of party members supported him in the 2 leadership elections.

    In contrast many in the PLP have consistently voted in a shockingly Tory manner, such as in favour of privatisation and war. There is a reason why they sing the Red Flag at the end of a Labour Party Conference, some people should pay attention to the words, especially the reference to “traitors”.

    The was no way that the rest of the PLP was just going to shrug and say “ah, now you’re leader, the rest of us will just fall in line”

    Why not? On two occasions Corbyn was elected leader by clear unambiguous majorities – the largest mandate of any previous Labour Leader, and larger than the current Leader.

    Otherwise what exactly is the point of putting it to the membership, if the PLP can simply refuse to work with any leader they don’t approve of?

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    I may have stuck up for Starmer before, and may have even voted for him…but not after reading this, thismorning.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/labour-brexit-northern-ireland-protocol-prime-minister-northern-ireland-b2114948.html

    Just…wow…

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    I don’t get it.

    That’s probably because you don’t see Starmer as a dishonest opportunitist and political careerist.

    I suspect that the driving force behind Starmer’s support for Remain was similar to what drove Johnson to support Leave – political expediency, and what best supports their career prospects.

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    That’s probably because you don’t see Starmer as a dishonest opportunitist and political careerist.

    Unfortunatley, this. I for one, stand corrected 🙁

    dazh
    Full Member

    I may have stuck up for Starmer before, and may have even voted for him…but not after reading this, thismorning.

    He’s simply the latest in a long line of Labour leaders who are terrified to say what they really believe on immigration. Apart from one of course, who was always honest about the need for immigration and the issues surrounding it. No one wanted to listen to him though because his MPs were calling him a racist. 🤷🏻‍♂️

    rone
    Full Member

    Starmer not wanting cause division but now will be hiving off to the libdems.

    What a mess.

    We all know what you don’t want Starmzy – but what do you want apart from insulation, 5% off energy and small business rate cuts?

    Staggering reach them.

    Come on Durham sort him out.

    rone
    Full Member

    It’s pretty much the only thing that Starmer has got right, and it’s a pity he didn’t adopt this position in the run up to thee 2019 election, we might not have a tory govt right now.

    This.

    These idiots couldnt see it coming and now want to patch it.

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    Come on Durham sort him out.

    IMO the most likely outcome if Durham Constabulary concludes that Starmer did in fact break lockdown rules is that they will simply say so but not issue him with a fixed penalty notice.

    This will give Starmer the schoolboy pedantic excuse “I only said that I would resign if I was fined”.

    The threat of resignation has of course had the effect of pressurising the police not to issue a FPN as they are made aware of the political consequences of their action. Durham police won’t want to be seen as directly responsible for a senior politician’s political downfall.

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    Starmer to set out Labour’s Brexit policy, saying rejoining single market would ‘be recipe for more division’

    Why rule it out, there is no bloody need at this point? In a year’s time, the widening gap between our economic prospects and those of EU countries, and the impact on working people ought to be even more obvious. At which point it is imperative that not just the LibDems are saying rejoin the single market. Why chain yourself to this **** millstone into 2024?

    It seems like Labour ought to be pointing out that the results of losing market access – recession, inflation and austerity are the true causes of division in the people they are claiming to represent.

    A shrinking percentage of the electorate still wants this shit, it is likely that well over half now understand what we have done to ourselves. But no-one is representing us. Is that not fuelling division too?

    Durham police won’t want to be seen as directly responsible for a senior politician’s political downfall.

    They can’t win either way – if they phrase it as you’ve suggested, there would be intense political pressure to issue an FPN as the PM got one for ‘just having a bit of cake’.

    BaronVonP7
    Free Member

    Never voted Labour. Voted to the left and right of them.

    Never voted tory. I won’t say I wouldn’t vote tory, but it would be have to be a cats living with dogs, rain falling upwards, weird world for me to do that.

    I’m that most odious of voters, the “swing voter” (Groovy baby! Let’s swing!).

    AKA a kingmaker.

    Had “moved” towards voting Labour but this brexit statement?…

    I’m now backing way… smiling and nodding, smiling and nodding…

    dazh
    Full Member

    Had “moved” towards voting Labour but this brexit statement?…

    I look forward to the usual suspects posting their ‘any vote which isn’t for labour is a vote for the tories’ response.

    nickc
    Full Member

    Why rule it out, there is no bloody need at this point?

    If I was the EU there’s no way I look at a deal for the UK to re-enter the single market, before it was in the manifesto of both parties, and there’s clearly an overwhelming support in the country for it.

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    If that were the case, one of the main parties needs to demonstrate that it is an idea that can gain electoral support first, before the other will even contemplate shifting its position. The idea that there can be a ‘good Brexit’ if you elect a Labour government doesn’t seem like the kind of platform that appeals to anyone.

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    there would be intense political pressure to issue an FPN as the PM got one for ‘just having a bit of cake’.

    Well yes of course but it could be argued different police force with different protocols. And also that the Met’s decision was never seen as having such direct political consequences.

    I agree that the political pressure on Durham Constabulary is wholly unfair. They quite rightly didn’t want to investigate the affair long after it is alleged to have occurred, the same as the Met Police.

    rone
    Full Member

    It seems like Labour ought to be pointing out that the results of losing market access – recession, inflation and austerity are the true causes of division in the people they are claiming to represent.

    Yes but the origins for these problems are mostly post-pandemic / supply-chain / just-in-time stocks and neoliberal slide – and Brexit won’t be helping of course.

    Irrespective – Starmer doesn’t want to push too hard against market-forces it appears. So, he’s not representing the people that would vote for him.

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    Yes but the origins for these problems are mostly post-pandemic

    Leaving the single market and the customs union is not a ‘post pandemic issue’ itwas never how brexit was sold to the UK public. That was May/Boris’ ultra hard brexit masquerading as ‘soft’ brexit.

    And now starmer is supporting this? He may as well start wearing a blue rosette and cross the floor.

    I was prepared to tactically vote labour if needed, but the only party I can vote for now is the liberal democrats. It’s either that or abstain.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    Im 100% a remainer

    but if you think Labour would ever have been able to go into the next election on a rejoin or SM/FOM ticket then you are very naive
    Theres no SM without FOM & you only have to see how popular the rwanda policy is among certain groups to realise that FOM is an election loser

    Itll take another electoral cycle at least before thats a realistic option, simply because too many people refuse to admit that they were wrong to vote for it

    dazh
    Full Member

    I was prepared to tactically vote labour if needed, but the only party I can vote for now is the liberal democrats. It’s either that or abstain.

    It’s like 2019 all over again. 😄

    I refere the court to comments I made a few days ago..

    Remember when all the remainers on here were saying they weren’t going to vote labour in 2019 because they refused to be part of a pro-brexit majority? I clearly recall being called a nazi sympathiser for saying labour (and remainers in general) should accept the referendum result. Yet now those of us who don’t want to vote labour (I really, really don’t*) on account of Starmer’s acquiesance to the right wing establishment are called ‘tory enablers’ by many of the same people who took exactly the same stance on brexit. What’s the difference?

    kelvin
    Full Member

    There are already plenty of people who won’t vote Labour because Starmer was a “remainer”, and I don’t think this approach will win many over… in addition, this approach will add to that many people who now won’t vote Labour because they want the UK in the Single Market (not all “remainers” of course, plenty of people wanted a “no longer EU member, but included in the Single Market” position when they voted to Leave). The truth is, there isn’t a policy as regards Europe for Labour that won’t make lots of people wary of them… all Labour can hope to do, in this election cycle, is try and neutralise it as an issue with a “no substantial change, but a few sensible concessions towards moving goods and workers”… and I suppose that’s what the veterinarian agreement and a fudge on touring staff seeks to do. They’re hoping that “resigned remainers” will think that at least they are proposing something, and that “practical leavers” will think that at least they’re trying to make Brexit work… and that plenty of other people just start to ignore the question all together. I don’t think it’ll work… but I don’t have an approach more likely to work to suggest either.

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    @kimbers I agree, but I thought starmer had the political nouce to maybe join ‘some sort of customs union’ without advertising it too loudly, without enraging the far right brexit loonies enough to shed too many potential labour voters.

    To come out and say what he said today…

    “So let me be very clear: with Labour, Britain will not go back into the EU. We will not be joining the single market. We will not be joining a customs union.”

    I was wrong. I was so wrong. I’ll never vote labour under starmer, the lib dems will get my vote.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    I thought starmer had the political nouce to maybe join ‘some sort of customs union’ without advertising it too loudly, without enraging the far right brexit loonies enough to shed too many potential labour voters.

    The minute Starmer says he wants to sign up to the CU or Sm, Johnson & the Tories will be jumping up & down, becaus ethey know it gets their base aroused, to be able to paint Labour as a threat to their Brexit

    dazh
    Full Member

    I’ll never vote labour under starmer, the lib dems will get my vote.

    Do you have a tory MP? Are the lib dems the main challenger? If not then you are a tory enabler and I claim my 5 pounds.

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    So his solution is ‘if you can’t beat’ em, join ’em?

    That’s a firm’ get in the sea’ from me.

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    Do you have a tory MP? Are the lib dems the main challenger? If not then you are a tory enabler and I claim my 5 pounds.

    My local MP is the illustrious Mr Craig Whittaker, last time I checked.

    I’d never vote for a pro-hard brexit party such as the conservatives, or Labour under Starmer, it’s as simple as that.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    And you’d rather keep him as your MP…? Rightio…

    dissonance
    Full Member

    So his solution is ‘if you can’t beat’ em, join ’em?

    Yes reduce division by giving way entirely to the hard right loons.

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    And you’d rather keep him as your MP…? Rightio…

    I’ll vote lib dem or abstain. As the old saying goes, if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.

    Now Starmer has revealed himself as a hard core brexiteer, There is no way on earth I’ll vote Labour.

    I am prepared to tactically vote, but if it’s a choice of hard brexit under the tories, or Starmers Labour, I’m out.

    dazh
    Full Member

    My local MP is the illustrious Mr Craig Whittaker

    Me too. If I can bring myself to vote labour to get rid of the c*** then you have no excuse either. Have a word with yourself.

    nickc
    Full Member

    to maybe join ‘some sort of customs union’ without advertising it too loudly, without enraging the far right brexit loonies

    cant happen, and that’s not necessarily Starmer’s fault. The EU are not going to start talking to anyone about any sort of renegotiation of the current deal while the Tory party is staunchly against the idea of the customs union ( as are a good number of the public still)  It would be just a waste of everyone’s time.

    rone
    Full Member

    Leaving the single market and the customs union is not a ‘post pandemic issue’ itwas never how brexit was sold to the UK public. That was May/Boris’ ultra hard brexit masquerading as ‘soft’ brexit.

    I’m not saying is the but the things you have listed have been heavily influenced mostly by post-pandemic macro conditions. I’m separating Brexit out.

    rone
    Full Member

    I think there will be a quite a few in Mattyfez shoes.

    Personally I think it just demonstrates how Brexit was always an impossible situation for Labour.

    Starmer should just up about it AND OFFER UP SOMETHING GOOD FFS for the type of voters that might be swayed by the Brexit wound. Moron.

    Don’t say what you’re not going to do – say what you’re going to do!

    nickc
    Full Member

    GodI wish he would!! The timidity of the Labour front bench is just depressing

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    Me too. If I can bring myself to vote labour to get rid of the c*** then you have no excuse either. Have a word with yourself.

    Who is the fool? the fool, or the fools that follow the fool?

    My mind is made up, I’m voting Lib Dem. I don’t care if it’s a wasted vote, it’s better than abstaining.

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    Personally I think it just demonstrates how Brexit was always an impossible situation for Labour.

    I don’t mean to start an argument, but labours problem, as I have said previously in polical threads on here, is that Labour is not a unified party, there are several factions within the party having constant public, internal spats.

    A poitical party needs a unified, concice ideology, if they ever want to get elected.

    dissonance
    Full Member

    A poitical party needs a unified, concice ideology, if they ever want to get elected.

    Not necessarily. The tories are equally divided although they are more willing to be quiet it still bubbles up.
    To get elected you just need the electoral system to be tilted in your favour and have the media behind you.

Viewing 40 posts - 14,921 through 14,960 (of 15,926 total)

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