• This topic has 15,445 replies, 38 voices, and was last updated 5 hours ago by rone.
Viewing 40 posts - 14,881 through 14,920 (of 15,446 total)
  • Sir! Keir! Starmer!
  • Premier Icon gauss1777
    Free Member

    Maybe. But this was the big problem :

    You’re probably correct. However, having clicked on the link it makes sense to me. The majority of people voted for Brexit without knowing the details. To say ‘this is what’s on offer, do you want to go ahead?’, sounds fair and reasonable.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Full Member
    Premier Icon ernielynch
    Free Member

    Not in the manifesto it wasn’t.

    Premier Icon ernielynch
    Free Member

    You’re probably correct. However, having clicked on the link it makes sense to me.

    That was Starmer’s input. The 2017 manifesto made no such commitment. Instead it said:

    Accept the EU referendum result and “build a close new relationship with the EU” prioritising jobs and and workers’ rights

    Labour did reasonably well in the Leave areas in 2017.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Full Member

    This is what David Graeber was talking about in that video I posted a page or two back. It’s US data but applies everywhere in western economies. If people really understood what this meant there’d be riots in the streets. I reckon we’re edging closer to that.

    Premier Icon rone
    Full Member

    Wages have been replaced by personal debt.

    Premier Icon rone
    Full Member

    Getting carried away with the Starmer fine rumour. It’s probably balls but can you imagine the forums if true?

    😃

    Fingers crossed – just for the sake of someone who can at least take the battle to the Boris the botcher.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Full Member

    Getting carried away with the Starmer fine rumour. It’s probably balls but can you imagine the forums if true?

    It’s quite obviously a fantasy of the far left that has got the Johnson fanboys desperate to try & deflect from his current scandals

    Starmer & Rayner were having a fun time at Pride, they do a great job of looking relaxed whilst orchestrating this secret cover up by the deep state/msm to protect him 🙄

    Premier Icon ernielynch
    Free Member

    Fingers crossed – just for the sake of someone who can at least take the battle to the Boris the botcher.

    Dream on – there isn’t any contender who is capable of doing that. And if there was someone who could offer a genuine alternative to the Tory agenda, and which puts the interests of ordinary working people at the forefront, the Parliamentary Labour Party would not tolerate it – they would connive with the right-wing press to do whatever they could to undermine them.

    Today’s Labour Party is not a vehicle for shifting the balance of political and economic power in favour of ordinary working men and women.

    Part of Mick Lynch’s current appeal is that he is a breath of fresh air in the UK’s otherwise stagnant political environment.

    Unrestrained by party discipline Lynch can stand up and speak his mind as he makes the case of the legitimate demands and expectations of working people.

    If Lynch was a Labour MP Starmer would have withdrawn the Labour whip from him a long time ago – he has threatened Labour MPs for simply showing support for the RMT. In the case of Wes Streeting he forced him to apologise.

    Generally speaking just the threat of disciplinary action is sufficient to silence any MP who might be tempted to have any radical thoughts.

    Those who have risen to the top of the party due to the approval of the Labour establishment are never going to even consider rocking the boat.

    Premier Icon ctk
    Full Member

    Premier Icon ctk
    Full Member

    Is he trying to be shit?

    Premier Icon rone
    Full Member

    Dream on – there isn’t any contender who is capable of doing that.

    You’re probably correct but neither can you predict the future.

    But they’re may at least be a better personality than Starmer in terms of just opening their mouth.

    Premier Icon ernielynch
    Free Member

    may at least be a better personality than Starmer

    Sure, if it’s a political pantomime that you want.

    Angel Rayner would possibly do a better job.

    I was specifically referring to “someone who could offer a genuine alternative to the Tory agenda, and who puts the interests of ordinary working people at the forefront”.

    Personally it’s policies which bother me, not personalities. And I don’t care sufficiently about Johnson’s personality to be bothered by it. It’s only Johnson’s policies which I have any issue with.

    Premier Icon rone
    Full Member

    Sure, if it’s a political pantomime that you want.

    Angel Rayner would possibly do a better job.

    I was specifically referring to “someone who could offer a genuine alternative to the Tory agenda, and who puts the interests of ordinary working people at the forefront”.

    Yes of course. I get that but Starmer has two faults: he’s not a passionate robust orator and the second part his agenda flips between centrist wishy wash and establishment tax and spend.

    I’d be happy aiming low and knowing we don’t have the latter for a swap of the former.

    Just for the time-being; just because I don’t think he’s ever pushed hard against the government to gain public support.

    People need to be roused and engaged.

    And I don’t care sufficiently about Johnson’s personality to be bothered by it. It’s only Johnson’s policies which I have any issue with.

    No neither do I really but the people that voted for him were influenced by his persona- and with him politics and personality are linked.

    I remember cycling past two builders pre-election (in deepest darkest Bassetlaw) and I was cursing Boris – and the builders shouted “yeah Boris!”

    It dawned on me they thought he would be on side. And we were stuffed.

    Premier Icon johnx2
    Free Member

    I remember cycling past two builders pre-election (in deepest darkest Bassetlaw) and I was cursing Boris – and the builders shouted “yeah Boris!”

    Yeah! Hang on, I mean whaa?! Cycling along, audibly cursing “ah that Johnson, that Boris **** Johnson’s… policies, why youuu!” Perhaps it helps summon up a few extra watts?

    Premier Icon dazh
    Full Member

    Wages have been replaced by personal debt.

    Which is exactly the point that Graeber was making. We’ve been sucked into a world where working people have been brainwashed into believing that they shouldn’t be able to pay for things with money they earn today, and instead with money they earn tomorrow. The only question you have to ask about why this is the case is who makes money out of that?

    Premier Icon rone
    Full Member

    Yeah! Hang on, I mean whaa?! Cycling along, audibly cursing “ah that Johnson, that Boris **** Johnson’s… policies, why youuu!” Perhaps it helps summon up a few extra watts?<

    Them watts have been getting harder to muster since Brexit. I’m sure I saw 350 extra watts for me on a bus.

    Ha ha. Not as dramatic just a fly by rant with the GF.

    Premier Icon rone
    Full Member

    We’ve been sucked into a world where working people have been brainwashed into believing that they shouldn’t be able to pay for things with money they earn today, and instead with money they earn tomorrow

    It’s amazing what cheap leveraged debt has made of things.

    There’s got to be the almighty black swan at some point. I will eat my socks if the forthcoming financial meltdown gets propped up by a last minute Tory government.

    I mean, economic models don’t last forever do they?

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    I only dip in and out of this. I thought i would ckarify. The reason i don’t really care about labour UK is that its operating in a foreign country . Westminster and england is a forign country to me.
    Policies on Scotland are spectacularly shit. Starmets latest ” no talking to the SNP” is an absurd position to take

    Premier Icon dazh
    Full Member

    Looks like the labour leadership election campaign has started. Maybe the gossip about Starmer being fined isn’t all bollocks after all?

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/03/labours-wes-streeting-launches-review-to-plan-for-national-care-service

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Full Member

    Yes because the shadow health secretary looking into healthcare is definitely a sign conspiracy theory is true 😉

    Premier Icon dazh
    Full Member

    The reason i don’t really care about labour UK is that its operating in a foreign country.

    That’s not really true though is it? You criticise left wingers for being ‘ideologically pure’ yet ignore the reality that Scotland is part of the UK and hence tied to the tory-labour establishment. Personally I’m quite supportive of Scottish independence, but the political dynamics are not much different to the English not wanting to be in the EU, and that’s what I don’t really understand about it.

    Premier Icon ernielynch
    Free Member

    but the people that voted for him were influenced by his persona

    Well that is certainly one of the excuses given for people not voting Labour. However when the issue is actually researched the evidence is less obvious.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/07/23/everything-we-know-about-what-public-think-boris-j

    The public has a far more negative view of the new Tory leader than they did of Theresa May when she took over the top job.

    If you read the whole article you will see the public had a remarkably low opinion of Johnson when he first became Tory leader, with most people quite correctly considering him to be “untrustworthy”.

    The article concludes :

    Does Boris’s unpopularity matter?
    Overall, there is definitely far more bad news in these numbers than there is good news for the new Conservative leader. By historic standards, Boris Johnson will be an unpopular new Prime Minister.

    However, there are also reasons to believe that Johnson’s popularity levels might be less important than they have been for Prime Ministers gone by.

    IMO far too much emphasis is put on a leaders personality. Even if it is Johnson’s personality that attracts voters (which doesn’t appear to be the case) it is still his policies which should be attacked, not his personality. It’s not a **** beauty contest.

    As far as cursing whilst cycling is concerned the only thing I curse is gravity.

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    much different to the English not wanting to be in the EU, and that’s what I don’t really understand about it.

    At least you admit not understanding. The motivations are the opposite. Its not about hatred of furriners and inward and bacward looking. Its about being a modern social democratic state and being outward and forward looking

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    Sorry but to many of us england is a forign country in how we see it and one that imposes unrepresentative governments on us. Thats why i dont care. How much do you care about german politics?

    Premier Icon dazh
    Full Member

    Sorry but to many of us england is a forign country in how we see it and one that imposes unrepresentative governments on us.

    Yes I understand that, I grew up in Newcastle and my inlaws are from Sevenoaks. There’s not much I don’t know about the gulf in wealth, culture and politics between the two. However, much like Scotland, what happens in the South East affects the rest of us. To a lesser extent in Scotland of course thanks to devolution, but the link between England and Scotland is much greater than that between the UK and Germany, so it’s a bit daft to not be interested in westminster politics however much you like to pretend it doesn’t apply in Scotland.

    And as for being an ‘outward looking’ country, how does that tally with being anti-UK when Scotland has much more in common with the rest of the UK than Europe? It just doesn’t seem very consistent to me.

    Premier Icon ernielynch
    Free Member

    Thats why i dont care. How much do you care about german politics?

    This is quite a rant from someone who doesn’t care :

    This is a lovely little bubble of all mouth and trousers pseudo lefties who will never support Starmer because he is not ideologically pure and whithin this group think you have all convinced yourselves that Starmer is the antichrist despite no evidence and in tbe process constructing a completly false narrative . Anyone supporting Starmer gets shouted down

    I can’t imagine what it would be like if you did care.

    Premier Icon rone
    Full Member

    The public has a far more negative view of the new Tory leader than they did of Theresa May when she took over the top job.

    But we’re talking about the period leading up to being elected?

    And broadly we are not talking about just the public we are talking about the subset of people that elected him.

    So whilst I agree that personality is not important for me – it very much is for some people.

    I mean wasn’t Corbyn cited as the largest reason for not voting Labour in 2019? At least in some polls.

    Premier Icon ernielynch
    Free Member

    But we’re talking about the period leading up to being elected?

    The poll was conducted on the weekend after he won the Tory leadership election and became PM. Do you think Johnson became more popular with voters after he became PM?

    Whilst I won’t dispute Corbyn’s lack of popularity you are hardly comparing like for like. Do you honestly think that Johnson would have won a landslide if his own MPs had claimed that he was absolutely shite prime ministerial material and were queuing up to denounce him as a racist and forcing leadership elections?

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    how does that tally with being anti-UK when Scotland has much more in common with the rest of the UK than Europe? It just doesn’t seem very consistent to me.

    Easy. I dont feel that i have more in common with the England. I look to the nordic countries and low countries and feel more incommon with them

    It doesn’t matter what the government in Westminster is. Its going to be shit for us. Two cheeks of tbe same arse

    Also my petsonal circumstances make it hard to give a shit

    Ernie thats a lighthearted rant about the postets on here. Should have had a 😀

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    Ernie is right in that if the plp had got behind Corbyn the results would have been very different. Some of them would rather have a tory government than a lefty pm.

    Premier Icon ernielynch
    Free Member

    So Immediately after wiping the slate clean and ditching all of Labour’s manifesto commitments, and Starmer claiming Labour would be starting “from scratch” the very first new policy that Labour suggests is the creation of a “National Care Service”, based on the National Health Service :

    The Guardian: Labour to aim to launch national care service inspired by creation of NHS.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/03/labours-wes-streeting-launches-review-to-plan-for-national-care-service

    Which is the same policy as was in the 2017 and 2019 election manifestos.

    I am not complaining, far from it, but I am a little surprised that the very first policy announcement since starting from scratch should be an old recycled policy.

    You would have thought that it might have been something a bit more new and unique. Perhaps Starmer is struggling with new ideas?

    Premier Icon ernielynch
    Free Member

    Ernie is right in that if the plp had got behind Corbyn the results would have been very different.

    That’s not really the point I was trying to make, although obviously true.

    The point I was making is that voters opinions of Corbyn will have been influenced by the fact that much of the PLP was publicly questioning whether Corbyn was fit to be PM and accusing him of being a racist whilst also mounting a leadership challenge against him.

    Is it really surprising that many voters had a problem with Corbyn? Can you imagine that sort of campaign against Johnson before the 2019 general election? Would voters not have had more of a problem with Johnson had he experienced the same treatment? Would the Tories have won such a landslide?

    Premier Icon rone
    Full Member

    The poll was conducted on the weekend after he won the Tory leadership election and became PM. Do you think Johnson became more popular with voters after he became PM?

    It’s still not a poll on people’s thoughts before an election.

    Premier Icon rone
    Full Member

    The poll was conducted on the weekend after he won the Tory leadership election and became PM. Do you think Johnson became more popular with voters after he became PM?

    It’s still not a poll on people’s thoughts before an election which I do think are a certain frame of mind. It’s possible to have buyer’s remorse.

    Whilst I won’t dispute Corbyn’s lack of popularity you are hardly comparing like for like. Do you honestly think that Johnson would have won a landslide if his own MPs had claimed that he was absolutely shite prime ministerial material and were queuing up to denounce him as a racist and forcing leadership elections?

    One way or another something is shaping the popularity. So I’d say Corbyn was less popular as a result in part from the Labour PLP and their treasonous attitude.

    Johnson was clearly more popular in part due to the fact the Tories supported him.

    You can’t extrapolate popularity from the circumstances that may have created it.

    Premier Icon rone
    Full Member

    The poll was conducted on the weekend after he won the Tory leadership election and became PM. Do you think Johnson became more popular with voters after he became PM?

    It’s still not a poll on people’s thoughts before an election which I do think are a certain frame of mind. It’s possible to have buyer’s remorse.

    Whilst I won’t dispute Corbyn’s lack of popularity you are hardly comparing like for like. Do you honestly think that Johnson would have won a landslide if his own MPs had claimed that he was absolutely shite prime ministerial material and were queuing up to denounce him as a racist and forcing leadership elections?

    One way or another something is shaping the popularity. So I’d say Corbyn was less popular as a result in part from the Labour PLP and their treasonous attitude.

    Johnson was clearly more popular in part due to the fact the Tories supported him.

    You can’t extrapolate popularity from the circumstances that may have created it.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Full Member

     Labour PLP and their treasonous attitude.

    So do you think the fact that Corbyn was serially “treasonous” his entire political career may have had an impact on how his colleagues may have regarded him as leader? Ultimately political parties are a team, Corbyn spent his political career playing largely against his own team.

    Premier Icon rone
    Full Member

    So do you think the fact that Corbyn was serially “treasonous” his entire political career may have had an impact on how his colleagues may have regarded him as leader?

    Look – Ian Austin sent me a letter asking me not to vote for Corbyn. Can you seriously get more treasonous than that? His own party at the time.

    Same sentiment from my local MP John Mann. Bunch of hawks.

    In what way is Corbyn treasonous – it’s the PLP’s shift away from supporting its own values that is treasonous.

    I mean look at the state of them.

    Corbyn would have been a magnitude better for the country than this shower and the PLP played their part. Treasonous.

    If you even look at the way a centrist operates they get angry at the state of things (while it’s current) but not prepared to change anything substantially enough to make a difference.

    Let’s have a laugh at change UK whilst were at it – they furthered the cause didn’t they? Their own cause that is.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Full Member

    In what way? Voting for the right things?

    im not saying he didn’t vote with his conscious, I’m sure he felt strongly about all the votes he made, but the fact remains that he was *the* most rebellious MP, voting what? Over 400 times against the whip while Labour was in power* The was no way that the rest of the PLP was just going to shrug and say “ah, now you’re leader, the rest of us will just fall in line” and not have a perspective about a bloke who’d never been a team player saying let’s all be on the same side. It’s fantastical thinking

    the very first time he has to have a conversation with an MP about loyalty, or about voting with the Labour whip;  his own record gets thrown back at him.

    Premier Icon BillMC
    Full Member

    Wasn’t the 2019 manifesto was put together by a team which Starmer has now decided to jettison so he can reposition the party to the right of its members?

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