Viewing 40 posts - 14,841 through 14,880 (of 15,926 total)
  • Sir! Keir! Starmer!
  • tjagain
    Full Member

    Reserve your ire for Sarwar and Scottish labour where they ally with the tories rather than talk to the snp. Labour as a result will be lucky to have a single Scottish seat

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Rone. Actually those models are in use and work in scotland. From scottish water to scotrail.

    If you don’t want those models but don’t insist on 70s style nationalisation what do you want?

    rone
    Full Member

    And where has he said he won’t? Your post demonstrates exactly what i mean

    Because he’s fiscally constrained the Labour party policies. He’s putting balancing the books above spending.

    That makes is completely counter-intuitive to redistribute.

    rone
    Full Member

    If you don’t want those models but don’t insist on 70s style nationalisation what do you want

    it’s not a 70s style. Modern techniques in running things would probably not permit a 70s style.

    Did we call is 70s style when some of the banks were bought into public ownership or did we just call it saving the banking sector?

    It’s a question of need.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    So you agree then that starmer has NOT renaged on the pledge for state control then?

    What model do you want?

    rone
    Full Member

    Also Scotrail – now owned by the Scottish Government.

    Is that not ‘simple’ nationalisation?

    ransos
    Free Member

    This is a lovely little bubble of all mouth and trousers pseudo lefties who will never support Starmer

    Except those people you attack are the people who voted for him.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Nope. Nor is Scottish water.

    But if you accept those two differnt models as state ownership or control then Starmer has not renaged on his promise.

    What model of state ownership or contrl do you prefer?

    rone
    Full Member

    So you agree then that starmer has NOT renaged on the pledge for state control then

    I would say Starmer hasn’t made a strong pledge other than this clip when he claimed he was happy with nationalisation.

    https://twitter.com/timmyvoe/status/1542912963446718464?t=rMd8rPSjuUdHCiwP1I_U_g&s=19

    And then confused Ed Milliband when he ruled out big 6 nationalisation.

    I don’t trust Starmer one iota. I don’t think he understands economics, and how the government spends money into existence.

    I know this, the broken model we follow and Starmer is blindly following will solve nothing of our current problems.

    rone
    Full Member

    Nope. Nor is Scottish water.

    Explain please. Everyone calling scotrail nationalisation even with the arms-length rhetoric.

    I don’t know a whole lot about it.

    Seems like nationalisation to me.

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    You have all convinced yourselves he has abandoned the pledge to bring utilities etc into public ownership. He has not.

    Why don’t you listen to what Starmer himself has said?

    Only 4 days ago he confirmed that the Labour Party has no policies. Why are you arguing what the Labour Party’s policies are when its leader is claiming that Labour hasn’t got any?

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19031451/sir-keir-starmer-ditch-all-labour-policies/

    Btw the average Labour lead for all 7 polls taken since the by-elections last week is just under 7% which if repeated in a general election would give no party a majority, which is quite remarkable considering the circumstances. And all the more so as Opposition leads almost always diminish during election campaigns.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Scottish water

    Its not nationalised but is under government control

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Water

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Scotrail

    A different model of state ownership and control

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ScotRail

    Both of these are examples of state ownership and control that are not nationalised in the traditional sense

    kelvin
    Full Member

    if repeated in a general election would give no party a majority, which is quite remarkable considering the circumstances

    There won’t be a majority Labour government. If that is the only
    result you’ll except as positive (despite the fact you didn’t vote Labour at the last election and look to not do so at the next one) then any outcome will be negative by your standards at the next election. FPTP is stacked against our opposition parties, getting the Tories out will require both Labour and LibDem candidates to unseat Tory MPs. The seat count for the Tories doesn’t just depend on the national voting intention for the Labour party, but also on where those Labour votes land geographically. Likewise for the LibDem votes.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Labour are totally self destructing in scotland. Doing deals with tories rather than snp means vote labour get tory will stickas does vote lib dem get tory

    Their antics mean 5% off the uk wide vote. Just from their total failure in Scotland to understand the changed political landscape

    rone
    Full Member

    Both of these are examples of state ownership and control that are not nationalised in the traditional sense

    Certainly with Scotrail I don’t know how this is not nationalisation?

    The government is the owner and funder. There might be partnerships etc.

    It’s nationalisation.

    rone
    Full Member

    It’s no different to the BoE. The government owns the bank of England.

    They appoint a committee that make limited monetary decisions – but the government can control things, and force it perform certain operations. (Q/E) etc.

    gauss1777
    Free Member

    Tjagain, from your link:

    In 2021, it was revealed that untreated sewage was discharged by Scottish Water into Scotland’s rivers and lochs more than 12,000 times in a single year, through combined sewage outflows. It emerged that the regulator, SEPA, estimated that there were 645 ‘unsatisfactory’ outflows, and that Scottish Government officials viewed Scotland as being ‘way behind’ England in dealing with the problem.[9]

    Personally give me some of that 70’s nationalisation please. It’s been such a long time and I was only young back then. But, all I remember is that the nationalised companies were starved of investment, which successive governments could have provided.

    gauss1777
    Free Member

    Their antics mean 5% off the uk wide vote. Just from their total failure in Scotland to understand the changed political landscape

    Sorry, I do not follow.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Scotland has 10% of the uk vote which labour used to get more than half of. Now labour get 10 to 15 % so have lost almost a half share of scottish vote which is 5% of the uk wide vote. So the 40% of the uk vote they have now would be 45% if they had not lost the Scottish votes.

    Their tribal hatred of the snp and working with tories have destroyed labour in scotland

    Vote labour get tory is true in scotland

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    Their tribal hatred of the snp and working with tories have destroyed labour in scotland

    Vote labour get tory is true in scotland

    And yet despite all that you are urging people in Scotland to vote Labour because according to your arithmetic the Labour vote in Scotland is very important if the UK is to have a Labour government?

    So how come you are allowed to be highly critical of Labour but people in England and Wales aren’t?

    As this little rant nicely shows:

    This is a lovely little bubble of all mouth and trousers pseudo lefties who will never support Starmer because he is not ideologically pure and whithin this group think you have all convinced yourselves that Starmer is the antichrist despite no evidence and in tbe process constructing a completly false narrative . Anyone supporting Starmer gets shouted down

    Do I need to move to Scotland before I’m allowed to criticise the Labour Party?

    kelvin
    Full Member

    you are urging people in Scotland to vote Labour

    I’ve never seen TJ do that, ever.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Point being the issues in Scotland are far more real and derp. Imagine if english labour did deals with the tories to keep the libdems out?

    I vote tactically anti tory in fptp elctions and green in proportional ones

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    But you have just posted the arithmetic to apparently show how important the Labour vote is in Scotland.

    Do you want a Labour government in Westminster or not?

    kelvin
    Full Member

    He just posted his view of the state of Labour support in Scotland, and it’s effect on national polling and recorded voting.

    I make it that there is a 4% negative impact on UK wide polling for Labour, compared to the days of the last Labour UK government.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Do you want a Labour government in Westminster or not?

    I dont teally care. I want and expect an independent scotland. Votes in Scotland makes only marginal difference to what happens in westminster anyway given the snp will always oppose the tories

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    Do you want a Labour government in Westminster or not?

    I dont teally care.

    Okay that wasn’t really clear – your earlier rant gave the impression that not supporting Starmer was some sort of unforgivable mortal sin.

    It turns out that you don’t care.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Its that the reasons folk give on this thread for not supporting Starmer rarely make any sense and often based on falsehoods.
    Like the idea he has renaged on state ownership. Bogus.

    rone
    Full Member

    Like the idea he has renaged on state ownership. Bogus.

    You’re just shifting your terminology about. He supported nationalisation. I just posted you a video clip with his hand up in the air. Terms like state ownership and common ownership are used to muddy the waters

    https://twitter.com/timmyvoe/status/1542912963446718464?t=AcaUeQ8yB8qeQOPpxIyGFw&s=19

    Starmer on rising energy bills: “I’m not in favour of nationalisation”

    But maybe he didn’t really support it in the first place. Who knows – he’s not a particularly genuine person it appears.

    And on top of this like Ernie says he’s ripping up the previous Labour manifesto.

    It ain’t hard finding contradictions on Starmer Island.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    And on top of this like Ernie says he’s ripping up the previous Labour manifesto.

    If Labour carried the 2019 manifesto through to the next election, and told the electorate “this time, get it right, vote for this”, they’d deserve to lose even more seats.

    I’d also like to point out that Ernie complaining about the 2019 manifesto being ripped up, when he refused to vote for it, is the kind of contradiction that this “anything Starmer does is the devil’s work” thread survives on, as it eats itself… going round and round and round…

    I voted for Labour with that manifesto. I expect much of what I approved of in it to be dumped to one side… it would be either arrogance or insanity to just press reprint on the manifesto and hope that the UK public has realised the error of its ways (and I do think it was an error… but hey).

    ransos
    Free Member

    Its that the reasons folk give on this thread for not supporting Starmer rarely make any sense and often based on falsehoods.

    Cobblers, TJ. Plenty of left leaning people on this thread voted for him. I know Dazh did and he was my second choice. Many of us feel betrayed as he has rowed back from the commitments he made then, which might be more palatable if he was putting Labour into a position to form the next government. He isn’t.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Thats exactly my point. You say he has renaged on commitments but he simply hasnt done so. People are slating him on this thread for partly imaginary reasons.

    Her has not rowed back from a commitment to state ownership and control for example. He said he didnot like the 70s model. There are other models.

    The whole idea he has rowed back comes from those who heard(falsely) what they wanted to hear. Ideological purity. Starmer is a technocrat. He is not ideologically pure and as this has become more obvious those that heard wrongly cry “betrayal”

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    Ernie complaining about the 2019 manifesto being ripped up

    I certainly haven’t ‘complained’ about the 2019 manifesto being ripped up, I haven’t even mentioned the 2019 manifesto.

    The only thing I am criticising is that Labour has no policies, only a “clean slate” according to Starmer – who the **** is going to vote for a clean slate?

    By all means ditch the 2019 election manifesto, after all the second referendum pledge is no longer valid, but ffs come up with some alternative policies to the Tories if you want people to support you.

    But perhaps Starmer feels there is no urgency in the matter – there are no crises to tackle so no alternative vision is currently necessary. Everything is just tickety-boo for now and maybe one day Labour might be able to offer some alternative policies to the Tories.

    In the meantime people should base their support for Labour on blind faith. Blind faith in a man who has broken every single one of the 10 pledges he made when he was desperate to become Labour Leader.

    No one, including me, can criticise Starmer’s policies, on account that he hasn’t got any. And that’s obviously the way he likes it. He has spent his entire time as Leader of the Labour Party telling people what he doesn’t support, I am sure that he could have found the time to also mention what he does support.

    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/keir-starmer-ditches-last-labour-manifesto_uk_62badcbfe4b080fb670a2baa

    ransos
    Free Member

    Thats exactly my point. You say he has renaged on commitments but he simply hasnt done so. People are slating him on this thread for partly imaginary reasons.

    He is on record saying that he is ditching the manifesto. We’ve done all this before, in this thread.

    In its place is a vacuum of ideas and vision.

    BillMC
    Full Member

    A vacuum? How dare you! We have ‘security, prosperity and respect’, all nice words to fight for.

    v8ninety
    Full Member

    Indeed. I’ll be voting for Labour, because ‘anything but Tory’ but I’m an engaged voter. Just being the beige alternative to Boris is going to lead to mass voter apathy and at best, a very hung parliament. At worst, more Boris.

    rone
    Full Member

    Her has not rowed back from a commitment to state ownership and control for example. He said he didnot like the 70s model. There are other models.

    You keep going on about 70s style nationalisation.

    It’s not a style. It’s ownership by the state.

    You referenced Scotrail earlier as some sort of abject difference to nationalisation.

    It’s not. It’s nationalisation. And every major reference piece is calling it that. Just like the BoE is nationalised but has the illusion of arms length control.

    Nationalisation can be ownership and or/control by the government.

    All that’s happening is Starmer is trying to avoid supporting nationalisation by not naming it such.

    Because that’s what a wishy washy centrist does is wait to see what the politics of the day are.

    gauss1777
    Free Member

    By all means ditch the 2019 election manifesto, after all the second referendum pledge is no longer valid, but ffs come up with some alternative policies to the Tories if you want people to support you.

    I liked the 2019 manifesto. One problem was iirc the tagging on of extra ideas at the last minute. Generally good ideas, but whilst Labour MPs tried to make it clear that these were wishful things for a later date – it was treated (largely maliciously) as if Labour were offering everything tomorrow, with no regards to the consequences/costs.
    imho policies need to be proposed now to give people time to consider them and for the argument for them to be made. Along with long-term proposals that may take potentially decades to achieve. We are not going to get to where we want to be overnight, nor without taking everyone with us. I used to be all for revolution, but I’ve come to believe that evolution is the way forward.

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    It’s not a style. It’s ownership by the state.

    That made me chuckle. Thanks 🙂

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    I liked the 2019 manifesto. One problem was iirc the tagging on of extra ideas at the last minute.

    Maybe. But this was the big problem :

    The Final Say on Brexit

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