Starmer has forensic skills; is not a forensic lawyer. Neither very relevant to his leadership of labour.

Where are his forensic skills? Can you give any examples of these forensic skills, which you claim he has, being put into practice?

He seems to think they were relevant enough to make a pledge about using them during his leadership bid.

I posted in the Boris thread about this. He won his seat with only 402 votes spare, a tiny majority. He is in a £80k or so job that he will lose at the next election if he stays Tory. They guy is protecting his income, nothing more complicated or noble than that.

I’d rathered the lad resigned than swopped sides. It would be fairer to the locals and a by-election now would be fun.

This is true, Johnson doesn’t have a by-election campaign to fight. He’s got to be relieved about that.

Plus they can probably bin one of the letters to the 1922, given he’s no longer a tory MP.

Ernie – did you look at the definitions posted?

Belonging to courts of judicature or to public discussion and debate; used in legal proceedings, or in public discussions; argumentative; rhetorical.

I’m sorry TJ are you claiming that Starmer misused the term “forensic” when he pledged, quote, “Forensic, effective opposition to the Tories in Parliament”?

If so that’s something that you need to take up with him, not me.

I have no problem with him claiming forensic opposition to the Tories, I’m simply asking where it is.

Sitting back waiting for the Tories to shoot themselves in the foot and score own goals doesn’t sound very forensic to me.

Binners is that Inspector Clouseau searching for the posts which you have stopped posting on this thread?

Or…. (Insert some remarks alleging he’s been bought or something)

Making unfounded insinuations of anti-semitism/conspiracy theory should be beneath you.

As I’ve stated before, I just don’t find it appropriate for our MPs to be part of lobby groups for the promotion of the interests of foreign countries, especially not expansionist/militaristic ones guilty of numerous serious human rights violations. Generally these are the same MPs who are part of a campaign to vilify Jewish Labour activists as anti-semites and hound them out of the party.

I guess Starmer has another ally in that campaign now.

It’s scary to see who is allowed to join the Labour Party these days

On 30 Jun 2020:
Christian Wakeford voted to remove rights for unaccompanied asylum-seeking children, spouses, vulnerable adults and dependant adults to join a family member who is legally present in the United Kingdom.Show vote
On 22 Jan 2020:
Christian Wakeford voted against requiring ministers to seek to negotiate with the EU to allow unaccompanied children seeking asylum to join their relatives by moving from the UK to the EU or vice-versa, and instead voted to require the Government to set out its policy on this subject.Show vote
On 8 Jan 2020:
Christian Wakeford voted to remove a requirement for ministers to seek to negotiate an agreement with the EU to enable unaccompanied child refugees to join their relatives.

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/25874/christian_wakeford/bury_south/divisions?policy=1087

He really has an appalling voting record :

Consistently voted against measures to prevent climate change

Consistently voted against measures to reduce tax avoidance

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/25874/christian_wakeford/bury_south/votes

And welcomed with open arms into the Labour Party by Starmer?

Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Way to go kier.

One Tory MP says they think Wakeford “has **** this for us” – ie they thinks this saves the PM. Certainly does give his detractors pause

— Jessica Elgot (@jessicaelgot) January 19, 2022

No Ernie – I am saying its a perfectly reasonable use of “forensic”  Its a word often misunderstood and wrongly used.

So what’s your problem?

Starmer claims to be both a lawyer and possess forensic skills, refering to him as a forensic lawyer is perfectly reasonable, in the same way that if he claimed to have horse riding skills refering to him as a horse riding lawyer would also be perfectly reasonable.

The only problem I can see is if he did not possess the skills he claims to have.

It is interesting to note that on the day that a Tory politician moves seamlessly from the right-wing of the Tory Party to the right-wing of the Labour Party, it is confirmed that a veteran Labour Party member and former parliamentary candidate, with more than 50 years of membership, is expelled anonymously by email without any hearing or right of appeal, because 8 years ago he criticised Israeli treatment of Palestinians

Labour centrists expel veteran Croydon campaigner White

The Labour Party really has become quite a sinister organisation.

The Labour Party really has become quite a sinister organisation.

They are …

That’s why I said do not tighten the noose on yourselves.

Out of line then you’re gone on whatever …

They are influenced by mole of CCP perhaps? Yes?

All the time I have been interested in politics there always seems to be a significant part of the labour party at war with itself

This witch hunt is just daft tho – absorbing loads of energy to what end?

Wasn’t David White one of the people suspended for claiming that Hitler supported Zionism?

I have never known anything remotely like this. What is going on now is totally ruthless and unprecedented imo.

Wasn’t David White one of the people suspended for claiming that Hitler supported Zionism?

LOL White was expelled because he is on the left of the party, not because of what he might or might not have said 8 years ago. He was suspended in 2016 and then quickly reinstated when it was clear that there was no case to answer.

The difference now is that Starmer is the current leader and his right-hand man is David Evans. Croydon Labour Party is controlled by the right-wing which is responsible for bankrupting the council and guilty of disgraceful housing scandals which have made the national headlines, no one has been expelled for that.

Being on the left David White has consistently opposed the self-serving right-wingers in Croydon where David Evans is a central character.

Accusing a man who has spent his life fighting racism of being a racist because of pro-Palestinian comments 8 years ago and expelling him, whilst warmly embracing a Tory brexiteer who only a few weeks ago was voting against the rights of asylum seekers, as he struts around parliament wearing a Union Jack facemask, speaks volumes about today’s Labour Party.

Are you describing the “Hitler supported Zionism” nonsense as “pro-Palestinian”?

Ernie – I remember the infighting in Manchester in the 80-s – pretty bad then with coups and counter coups and various factions fighting and lashing out at each other

It seems to be something on the “left” that they keep on forgetting who the enemy actually is and fight amongst themselves – and we also had the labour / tory non aggression pact in Scotland which gave May a majority ( with the DUP ) and the Bain principle and before that labour councils splitting on sectarian lines

Seems my entire life the left has been full of splits and factional infighting absorbing energy that could be more usefully spent actually achieving someothing

Are you describing the “Hitler supported Zionism” nonsense as “pro-Palestinian”?

If David White had made a racist comment 8 years ago he would have been expelled immediately then. I will remind you that the leader of the Labour Party at that time was Jewish.

So tell me Kelvin, what is your view concerning Starmer warmly welcoming a right-wing Tory brexiteer who votes against the rights of asylum seekers and likes to proudly display the union jack?

He sounds like the archetypal Tory MP which stw despises so much, especially when you throw in that he is opposed to measures to reduce climate change and tax evasion.

The Tories have division aswell. They are in power more so it doesn’t matter as much.

It seems to be something on the “left” that they keep on forgetting who the enemy actually is

I would love to say that is hilarious, but binners is much better at comedy than you TJ, leave that sort of stuff to him.

I can’t speak for anyone else but I’m willing to hold my nose regarding the defection.

The time to play nicely to get the Tories out has long gone. They need to go,I don’t care about the niceties, the “moral” choices.

Get. Them. Out.

Anything, legal, that aides their demise is fine by me.

I’ll worry about the the likes of Wakefield once Labour is in office.

I can’t speak for anyone else but I’m willing to hold my nose regarding the defection.

I very much suspect that you are not alone. Usually there is an avalanche of hatred directed at right-wing anti-asylum Tory brexiteers on stw, the silence in the case Wakeford says a lot.

What Starmer should have done of course was to tell him to **** off, not least because it makes no difference to the Tories huge majority, but also because it clearly is a stain on Starmer’s party that a right-wing Tory should so effortlessly move into the Labour Party.

Although the reality is that there is probably very little difference politically between Starmer and Wakeford, which according to a few on here is apparently a good thing…… Labour becoming more like the Tories.

It seems to be something on the “left” that they keep on forgetting who the enemy actually is

so in Scotland we have labour aligning themselves with the tories and cheering on tory wins in the GE – against the SNP who are to the left of the labour party on most issues – and you think they have not forgotten who the enemy is?

We get the welcoming a brexiteer tory and spending gawd knows how much time and energy on infighting – rather than taking on the tories – and you think they have not forgotten who the enemy is?

In case yo have forgotten the enemy is the tory party 😉

Verbal and ‘logical’ gymnastics; so much dancing on the head of a pin.
Anything that moves the tories – and johnson specifically – closer to the exit gets my unquestioning and unequivocal support.
It’s about winning – not taking the moral high ground, if there is such a thing.
Other than that – I’ll leave you chaps/chapesses to disappear further down the rabbit hole.

The time to play nicely to get the Tories out has long gone.

By becoming them?

Can someone please explain what qualifies this person to be a Labour MP? Given that you can get kicked out of the Labour Party for having previously voted Green. It’s utter madness.

So tell me Kelvin, what is your view concerning Starmer warmly welcoming a right-wing Tory brexiteer who votes against the rights of asylum seekers and likes to proudly display the union jack?

I’ve already said that I want more Tory MPs to cross the floor, and I want Tory voters to see that and consider voting Labour. I also want MPs and voters alike to reconsider their views on asylum seekers, immigrants, the low paid, the unpaid and others used as the targets by the Tories to gain power and divide and rule. I want them to change their minds, their attitudes, and their votes. Stop being Tories. Stop voting Tory. Stop blaming those in need. Start supporting those in need. Start voting Labour. Start supporting Labour.

TJ, I agree, outs abhorrent what Labour is doing in Scotland.

I very much suspect that you are not alone. Usually there is an avalanche of hatred directed at right-wing anti-asylum Tory brexiteers on stw, the silence in the case Wakeford says a lot.

I can’t but agree, I suspect I wouldn’t like to hear Wakefield’s opinions on Brexit, immigration and a slew of other matters.

However, if he has the potential to be a nail in a Boris sized box I’ll repent my sins later.

Labour at its absolute worst would still be better than this absolute shower of shysters.

@kelvin er…

In 2020, Mr Wakeford co-sponsored and voted for a private members bill that would “enable the recall of Members of the House of Commons who voluntarily change their political party affiliation; and for connected purposes”.

These are my principles…

Ernie – we may be at cross purposes – I didn’t mean the left of the labour party tho at times they spend more energy on infighting that fighting the tories – I meant the left in a more general way – so  the labour party in all its broad church and including the various splinter parties.  If they all got together and worked together we would never have another tory government but they waste so much energy and effort fighting each other that they give the tories a free ride.  this thread shows my point exactly

I’m sorry TJ I thought it was an attempt at a comedy on your part when you accused the left of forgetting who the enemy is.

I had no idea you were being serious when it is so clearly the right-wing that is hellbent on treating Labour Party members as the enemy, instead of focusing on the Tories.

so the labour party in all its broad church

So broad it now encompasses the right wing of the conservative party.

“enable the recall of Members of the House of Commons who voluntarily change their political party affiliation; and for connected purposes”.

That would be great. What are we talking, a % of constituents petitioning for a bye election? Sounds great. Can it apply to those who lose the parliamentary whip as well? We could do with some bye elections this year. ASAP. The more the better. Especially in seats only narrowly won by Conservative Party candidates in 2019. Bring it on.

this thread shows my point exactly

Pages and pages of it. And it’ll never end while we have FPTP. Even the Democrats managed to briefly unite to win an election. Labour never will. It needs to split, but it can’t because our election system means they would then be even less likely to be in government then they do looking like cats fighting in a sack. “But it’s just those on the Left of the party who are the problem”, “it’s just the centrists that are problem” … it’s obviously both, as they battle over a party only forced to stay together by FPTP.

The point ——>>>>>>>>>

You

Inside Croydon, posted on the interweb, looks like an invaluable, independent and impartial news source Ernie.

Thanks for introducing me to that

Reading it, I’m absolutely amazed I’ve not come across it before

Do you know if they plan any expansion of their unique reportage beyond Croydon?

Palestine would be the obvious next step, but tomorrow? The rest of the Middle East? Surely the world?

Do you know if they’ve any plans to report live on the kidnapping of Pilate’s wife?

Oh… and as for my own opinions on what’s happened today, I won’t bother. I’ll just echo what Kelvin’s said. And I live in Bury (north not south, so I’m even more northern. Imagine that). It maybe looks a bit different up here than it does in London (or Islington North at least)

I want more Tory MPs to cross the floor

Hopefully enough so that Labour can form a majority government.

Or maybe Labour MPs could join the Tories? That would have the same effect, and it would probably be easier.

After all there’s no point getting hung up on ideology.

The point

You were making out that he’s a hypocrite. Something very easy to do now I imagine. I was jokingly praising his support of a bill which I presume you think means he should now act as if it was made law, even though it wasn’t. Right now, I wish the bill had been passed, and I wish he was facing a by-election, and that it was only one of many by-elections such a change in the law would probably be delivering. That just because I think it would sink both Johnson and his party fast. My more considered long term opinion is that it would give the whips too much power. After all, it is subjective and on a case by case basis whether a party has moved away from the electorate in a constituency, or the candidate has, when an MP leaves a party.

Hopefully enough so that Labour can form a majority government.

That’s one unlikely way to get a fresh election. I’ll take a reduced majority and more of the public thinking about replacing their Tory MPs, preferably with Labour ones, but I’ll admit to not being all that fussy.

Or maybe Labour MPs could join the Tories? That would have the same effect, and it would probably be easier.

Only if you think a glass of gin with a splash of tonic in it is in effect the same as a glass of tonic with a shot of gin in it.