If Starmer wants to exploit the Tories self-inflicted mess he should be declaring that the Tories are unfit to govern and calling for a general election to let the people decide.

If you never ask for what you want, and what the country needs, you’ll never get it.

Pointing out what the country needs repeatedly, might just start some of the electorate that he’s on to something.

An ideology is a system of ideas, they develop to represent different class positions, those who control and own capital and those who sell their labour. Yes, Starmer’s ideology aligns with Tory ideology but there’s not a non-ideological, ‘grown up’ or technocratic alternative way of understanding a society where one class exploits another, you have to take sides. So, yes ordinary mortals have to fight their own corner. So, yes you’re right in your conclusion but I’m not sure if you understand why.

So you prefer pointless posturing – calling for an election that will never happen rather than calling for the resignation / defenestration of Johnson which will happen and sewing more confusion in tory ranks?

And yes – Labour does run scared of the tory press.  It been this way for decades.  another legacy of Blair who pandered to them and refused to reign in their power when he had the chance

Pointing out what the country needs repeatedly, might just start some of the electorate that he’s on to something.

Exactly. Labour’s theme for the next two years should be that the Tories are unfit to govern and that only solution is to kick them out, not, to find a better Tory leader.

In fact Labour should be focusing precisely on the claim that changing leaders is completely pointless as it doesn’t solve the root problem at all.

Labour needs to encourage the British people to be hungry and inpatient for a general election. It needs to make the Tory government feel insecure and living on borrowed time.

Apart from the obvious benefit of a demoralised Tory government and groundswell of support for change it is far more likely to result in serious concessions from a defensive government.

Blimey, all those hungry inpatients and the NHS will crash.

So you prefer pointless posturing

Lol! So what sort of posturing is this?!?

Of course he should be calling for Johnson to resign. By doing so he will increase tory supoport for Johnson as they do not want to be seen doing Starmers bidding

To focus on the fact that the only actual solution is to kick out the Tories, not leadership changes, is not posturing. It makes the point that the Tories are not the solution, whoever the leader might happen to be.

Publicly making the case that Britain needs a change of government not simply a change of prime minister is a perfectly reasonable case to make, however unlikely it is for the government to call an early election.

People need to hear that.

It is pointless posturing when a GE will not happen!  I agree clobbering them on competence is the right way but calling for a GE is just pointless it achieves nothing bar making Starmer look stupid calling for something that will not happen.

all those hungry inpatients

Thank you Bill 😊

I won’t edit!

It is pointless posturing when a GE will not happen!

Of course it will happen. There is a legal requirement.

There is absolutely nothing wrong in pointing out that only a change of government is what is needed not a change of Tory leader. Obviously it’s a bit radical, probably too radical for Starmer, but that’s the message that Labour should be driving home. Not telling the Tories to change their leader.

Edit : Labour should be campaigning for the next general election right now. It should be telling the British people right now what to expect from the next Labour government. It should be talking as if it believed in itself. It should be making the British people “impatient” for change.

I see the merit in most of the arguments about, regarding good bet you did is of the Tory party, in truth we just don’t know which one is best at the moment.

I think (really hope) that ’22 shots see its coming out of the pandemic to endemic levels of Covid. There’s likely to take some pursue of the Tories and let them take credit for it.

However, the country is in an utter mess even if the worst effects of that are still hidden mostly.

In all honestly, if I were Truss, Sunak or whoever, no way would I want to be the next PM after Boris! Didn’t they see what happened to May on the Brexit alter?

The next couple of years are going to be horrendous for many in the country, effecting even some of those that escaped even the ’07 crisis. About the only flip side to that is I do now believe there it’s a strong possibility we might not have to endure the Tories for another decade.

If Labour do get in, in ’24, they have an almost impossible task but at least they won’t be pulling is further down the plug hole intentionally.

Brexit is likely to be the undoing of at least another 2 Prime Minister’s though.

Calling for a general election is the kind of thing Jeremy Cotbyn would do.

Of course it will happen. There is a legal requirement.

In 2 and a half years time

What do you think calling for a GE now will achieve?

You do realise that the leader of the Opposition can’t call a general election don’t you?

Perhaps I should have been more aware that every word I write might be taken literally but what I am suggesting is that Starmer should be making the point that what Britian needs is a change of government, not a change of Tory leader.

It is clear that many Tories want to change their leader so that the public perception of them changes, I have no idea why Starmer feels he needs to get involved in that.

Starmer claims that Johnson is guilty of “deceit and deception” and unable to lead. Surely he should be making the point that the Tories are guilty of “deceit and deception” and unable to lead?

Edit : Ref : “many Tories want to change their leader so that the public perception of them changes”. It’s worth remembering that many Tories also want him gone so that the party can embrace a more right-wing Thatcherite agenda, they would much prefer Liz Truss as leader, or even Sunak. Which is why they are exploiting the situation. Right-wing columnists in the Telegraph, Mail, and Express, have been gunning for Johnson long before partygate.

I quite agree – the point being that calling for a GE that will not happen makes Starmer look weak and daft IMO

What do you think calling for a GE now will achieve?

And what will calling for swapping Johnson for Truss/Sunak/etc achieve

Johnsons exit, however…..

And what people might be missing is, that if Johnson is replaced, it brings an election closer. His successor will need their own mandate, and have a short honeymoon period. If Labour can then successfully tarnish his successor with Johnson’s now obvious to all self serving lying stench, they have a chance at that election. I still think it’ll take a small miracle for them to win with someone as dull as Starmer as leader… but we can hope.

Labour should be campaigning for the next general election right now. It should be telling the British people right now what to expect from the next Labour government. It should be talking as if it believed in itself. It should be making the British people “impatient” for change.

I can only guess. These come to mind … save the planet, more carbon tax, more energy tax, Clean Air Zone tax in all cities, no private vehicles unless electric vehicles become the standard, old vehicles or those with “high carbon emission” tax to the hilt, council tax payment increase, give EU more concessions to get into their good book, income tax increase, more benefits to buy votes, bigger council/public sector recruitment, more cycle lanes, more city centres ban vehicles, force people to use public transport, income tax increase unless you earn peanuts, more race related issues (polarisation) , regeneration of locations only benefits the few etc. Some party members also want a “proportionate representation”.

Oh my god… more cycle lanes?!? Sound like dangerous radicals to me.

Oh my god… more cycle lanes?!? Sound like dangerous radicals to me.

You really don’t have space for cycle lanes in certain cities. Simply squeeze into the car lanes is not a solution.

And what people might be missing is, that if Johnson is replaced, it brings an election closer.

Why?
Whilst Johnson, to chose a random hypocritical arse, happily slated Brown for not calling a election immediately I cant see why any Johnsons replacement would call an election early even if we get given quotes of them announcing “anyone who takes over as PM should call an election or be summarily executed”.
The only reason they would call it early is if they think they will win and I would tend towards they would want some time to claim a fresh broom and clear the Johnson stench.

… they would want some time to claim a fresh broom and clear the Johnson stench.

They have no other credible candidates to replace Johnson at the moment. To replace Johnson now will certainly get them in trouble going into the next GE. As the saying goes “if it ain’t broken, don’t fix it”.

Labour wants Johnson out because they can’t out shire his charisma with a lawyer Max Headroom or Angela look at me Rayner.

Why?
Whilst Johnson, to chose a random hypocritical arse, happily slated Brown for not calling a election immediately I cant see why any Johnsons replacement would call an election early even if we get given quotes of them announcing “anyone who takes over as PM should call an election or be summarily executed”.

100% agree, with an 80 seat majority Tories will leave it until the latest possible moment to call an election

Any new leader will want to call an election within 12 months, before the public tire of them. Not doing so risks them being ousted due to sliding polls before we get to the next election. Remember, this is the Tories, not Labour… they won’t hesitate to swap leaders quickly if they feel they need to. Any new leader needs to prove themselves at the polls fast, during their honeymoon period, to avoid a very short time at the top.

If Tories want to be the clown they can keep banging on the “green” agenda to save the planet.

Any new leader will want to call an election within 12 months, before the public tire of them

Why? How many PMs who took power in office met this criteria of yours?
The key requirement is enough time to be noticed and be able to blame everything bad on their predecessor. That doesnt have a strict one year time limit.

they won’t hesitate to swap leaders quickly if they feel they need to. Any new leader needs to prove themselves at the polls fast

Often stated but not really supported by the evidence. The majority only got the boot after election failure

If I took over as leader there is no way I would be holding an election until the dust has settled/people have forgotten all about some of the crap that has gone on. They may have forgotten most of it by 2024.
Unless of course I had very strong and consistent polling that suggests the 80 seat majority would not be completely lost. Even then it is still risky depending on how good or bad the Labour party are on capitalising on the Tory shenanigans of the last few years.

Aaron Bastani (@AaronBastani) Tweeted: “I’m not in favour of nationalisation” says Keir Starmer, saying it doesn’t work.

Won’t have consequences anytime soon but the level of lying when he ran for leader was utterly extraordinary.
https://t.co/OGgOM5eaag https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1483022936860762116?s=20

unfortunatly thats not what he actually said.  But then what he did say does not fit the narrative some of you want

There are plenty of other ways of bringing themback into pubic ownership without whole scale nationalisation

Not for profit companies, mutuals, etc etc

Aaron bastani making things up!, well I never

He says in the above clip “I’m not in favour of nationalisation”

During the election campaign he said he was.

During the election campaign he said he was.

He is still saying that he is, according to his website :

“Public services should be in public hands, not making profits for shareholders. Support common ownership of rail, mail, energy and water; end outsourcing in our NHS, local government and justice system.”

10 Pledges

“Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?” – Marx

the missing bit is “top down” which rather changes the meaning

For example do you think Scottish water is nationalised or a different form of public ownership?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Water

Other forms are available as well.  Mutuals, not for profit corporations, etc etc

Are people expecting Labour to still be pushing for the nationalisation that they were in 2019? I mean, I was (and am) fully in favour of all the infrastructure nationalisation they were proposing (water, energy, and, yes, even the much laughed about broadband/telcom stuff) but if they run with all that again, the electorate are going to run a mile. They should have stuck with one or two nationalisation projects, and if they had won, and proven they could deliver, proposed more further down the line.

Starmer’s “Common ownership” looks like weasel words for those that thought that could only mean state ownership of energy companies (and mail, energy and water companies as well)… but it can mean many things. My fear is that by the time an election comes around it’ll mean absolutely nothing… and deliberately so… because so many English voters are (with no good modern day reason in my opinion) scared of any alternative to shareholder capitalism… despite its failings, especially as regards delivering the essentials of life, being laid before them repeatedly.

Aaron bastani making things up!, well I never

I heard that LBC interview this morning.

What is Bastani making up?

unfortunatly thats not what he actually said. But then what he did say does not fit the narrative some of you want

Eh?

Starmer’s Labour is very much let the market sort it out with bits of government tinkering. It doesn’t work, it’s a cop-out as a redistributive exercise.

Neo-Lab.

There is a clip of Starmer putting his hand up to renationalising water and leccy in his leadership campaign on a TV show.

Now, given thing have gotten so much worse with regards to energy companies since 2020 then why would you now move away from that?

Highest Starmer has been so far

Be interesting to see where he’d be facing a nre tory leader

Largest lead for Starmer over Johnson for better PM we have recorded.

At this moment, which of the following individuals do you think would be the better PM for the UK? (17 Jan)

Keir Starmer: 42% (+5)
Boris Johnson: 29% (-7)

Changes +/- 10 Janhttps://t.co/u9nZQEqjWh pic.twitter.com/NIHrJNd2gi

— Redfield & Wilton Strategies (@RedfieldWilton) January 17, 2022

I’m looking at a poll giving Labour a 13 point lead over the Conservatives… I’ll post it once I’ve convinced myself that it isn’t fake. A 13 point lead… with a leader doing an impression of cardboard cutout of himself. Hard to believe it. If it’s genuine, it’s a small but real moment of hope.

Labour getting 25% of 2019 Tory deserters, 50% to don’t know & 25% to ‘others’

Largest lead we have had for any party since May 2020.

Westminster Voting Intention (17 Jan):

Labour 43% (+4)
Conservative 30% (-5)
Liberal Democrat 9% (-3)
Green 7% (+2)
Scottish National Party 4% (–)
Reform UK 4% (–)
Other 3% (+2)

Changes +/- 10 Janhttps://t.co/u9nZQEqjWh pic.twitter.com/dOEIb8mHgc

— Redfield & Wilton Strategies (@RedfieldWilton) January 17, 2022

😮

rone – the words “top down” which somewhat changed the meaning and also the explanation that there are other ways of public ownership than outright “nationalisation”

Did you have a look at the scottish water example I gave?  Its not nationalised as most of us would recognise but is publicly owned