Its politically poor because it allows a quote to be pulled from it “Nandy backs Gove” and gives Gove easy ammunition by partial quoting her. She then will have to be on the defensive over that quote losing the battle of public opinion

Its not the first time she has done this.  Its just terminally politically dim

They think he’s the golden ticket.

Do they? Or do they think he was the best choice available when they were picking a leader, and no one better is offering themselves up?

Getting behind your party leader shouldn’t be interpreted as thinking that sun shines out of their…

Anyway, who should replace him? Or should MPs openly moan about their party leader without having a plan in place for a replacement?

His deputy is positioning herself ready, I feel, and doing so successfully. Lammy is still my first choice, although I suspect a London MP as next leader is very unlikely.

Or should MPs openly moan about their party leader without having a plan in place for a replacement?

That was the situation when Corbyn was party leader, they came up with some scatterbrain idea of replacing him with Owen Smith.

Which Labour MPs are openly moaning now? They seem quite content.

Do they? Or do they think he was the best choice available when they were picking a leader, and no one better is offering themselves up?

The councillors I’ve spoken to think he’s a on a victory march and righting all the wrongs of the Labour party.

We’re past the leadership election.

And so it continues….. opposition to the government comes from everywhere, including the Tory back benches, but hardly ever from the leader of the Opposition :

The Independent: Boris Johnson faces revolt over military rape trials.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/court-martial-rape-trial-wallace-b1969193.html

Prominent Tory MPs Johnny Mercer – a former army officer who was in charge of legislation on the issue before resigning as a defence minister earlier this year – and Commons defence committee chair Tobias Ellwood are among those expected to break party ranks in a crunch vote on Monday.

“It was clear to me at the time that all of the officials and myself – as the original bill minister – were of the view that the evidence clearly indicated we should remove serious and sexual offences from the military justice system in order to reassure victims and try to get better outcomes for them,” said Mr Mercer.

Lots more quotes from people including Victims’ Commissioner Dame Vera Baird and Emma Norton, the director of the Centre for Military Justice, but not one single quote from the leader of the Opposition.

You would have thought that a famed “forensic lawyer” and former Director of Public Prosecution Starmer would be both keen and comfortable about tackling the government on legal issues.

Apparently not. Starmer is happy to publicly announce that the next James Bond should be a woman but issues concerning rape in the military don’t warrant his intervention, Tory back benchers can deal with that.

Of course it could be that the Independent has some sort of bizarre agenda which aims to undermine Starmer by not reporting his interventions but if that’s the case Google appear to be in on the conspiracy.

For me the most shocking aspect of this tragic situation isn’t Starmer ineptitude but the willingness of Labour MPs to accept it and stand behind him.

Starmer is just one man, replacing him however difficult it might be is not impossible. There are however a couple of hundred Labour MPs, replacing the majority of them seems an insurmountable task. I don’t see any light at the end of the tunnel.

It’s good that Mercer, now free from the government, has changed his mind public position.

https://labourlist.org/2021/03/labour-pushes-for-civilian-court-trials-for-rape-and-serious-offences-in-military/

Labour supported this change in the first place. Tory Rebels coming onboard at this stage is welcome (and understandably the news story here).

Yes it’s interesting that LabourList, unsurprisingly, managed to find a photo of Starmer wearing a poppy and talking to a soldier, but they were unable to find any quotes from him to include in the article.

Edit : Which presumably is why the Independent couldn’t either. Although they could have included a photo of Starmer talking to a soldier and wearing his poppy with pride.

Of course it could be that the Independent has some sort of bizarre agenda which aims to undermine Starmer by not reporting his interventions but if that’s the case Google appear to be in on the conspiracy.

Its a bit from column A and a bit from Column B

I have seen Starmer give some really nice quotes ripping tory conduct to pieces which do not get the media attention those quotes should have

If Starmer is so inept who would you rather have?  Its not like the talent pool is very deep.  He is about the only one on the labour front bench I would think able to run a bath

I have seen Starmer give some really nice quotes ripping tory conduct to pieces which do not get the media attention those quotes should have

You were there?

I’m afraid that the British voting public will need more than that to back Labour.

If the media is the enemy then you might as well pack up and go home.

If Starmer is so inept who would you rather have?

Starmer is just one man, replacing him however difficult it might be is not impossible. There are however a couple of hundred Labour MPs, replacing the majority of them seems an insurmountable task. I don’t see any light at the end of the tunnel.

The problem isn’t Starmer. The problem is the Parliamentary Labour Party.

Many of us think Starmer should be replaced before we get to the next general election. If you do to, you must have at least one name to put forward to replace him? Or do you want him gone and for there to be no Leader of the Opposition at all? What do you want the Party to do? Who do you want to lead them? Who do you think should be Leader of the Opposition, and who should lead Labour into the next General Election?

The problem is the Parliamentary Labour Party.

Indeed. The solution is primaries. Allow the membership a vote preceding every election to decide on candidates who can put themselves forward openly rather than being shortlisted by a central committee. Labour MPs would then be accountable to their constituency membership, rather than shady corporate interests, lobbyists and stalinist party apparatchiks. If they did that I’d probably join again.

Or do you want him gone and for there to be no Leader of the Opposition at all?

LOL Do you think it would make any difference?!

As I keep saying the problem is the Parliamentary Labour Party, not who is party leader. The reason the PLP is s satisfied with Starmer, and they clearly are, is precisely because he is doing bugger all to challenge the status quo and offer a real alternative to the Tories.

If Starmer was replaced by someone who actually challenged the Tory agenda in a meaningful way and offered a real alternative the PLP would not tolerate it.

Their attitude is nicely summed up here by Tony Blair, and remember they are overwhelmingly Blairites.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tony-blair-says-he-wouldn-t-want-a-leftwing-labour-party-to-win-an-election-10406928.html

Tony Blair has said he would not want a left-wing Labour party to win a general election.

The former prime minister said that even if he thought a left-wing programme was the route to victory, he would not adopt one.

There is no point dealing with the symptoms of the problem if you don’t deal with the cause of the problem.

Well, no one here is calling for Tony Blair to replace Starmer. Who do you want to replace him?

Okay you have obviously decided to ignore what I am saying so let’s leave it there.

If there genuinely is no sitting Labour MP that you would be happier to have as leader than Starmer, then what do you want to happen?

Their attitude is nicely summed up here by Tony Blair, and remember they are overwhelmingly Blairites.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tony-blair-says-he-wouldn-t-want-a-leftwing-labour-party-to-win-an-election-10406928.html

…he said it six and a half years ago as part of telling people not to vote corbyn in the labour leadership election. I’d be surprised if you can find anyone posting on this thread who would have agreed with that viewpoint then, let alone now. Whatever, I promise to do my best to ignore any further discussion of corbyn.

Zarah Sultana

If there genuinely is no sitting Labour MP that you would be happier to have as leader than Starmer, then what do you want to happen?

I would be happier to have Clive Lewis as leader. He may turn out to be just as shit as Starmer but I doubt it. Of course he won’t be leader though will he.

The solution is primaries. Allow the membership a vote preceding every election to decide on candidates who can put themselves forward openly rather than being shortlisted by a central committee. Labour MPs would then be accountable to their constituency membership, rather than shady corporate interests, lobbyists and stalinist party apparatchiks.

Agree with this 100% for choosing someone in a seat without a sitting Labour MP, or where the current Labour MP is standing down. I’m on the fence as regards primaries in seats where there’s already an incumbent Labour MP… only because sitting MPs should be accountable to their constituents first, and the constituency membership second… but then there’s safe seats… where realistically without members being able to change the MP, they can do pretty much what they hell they like, without regard to constituents anyway. As I said, on the fence.

Zarah Sultana

Is a good example of someone who’d never get through a local primary.

I would be happier to have Clive Lewis as leader.

Same here. Top 10 for me. Starmer would still be top 20 for me by the way, even though he’s dull and ineffective. I don’t think Labour should wait for him to lose an election to move him on… but likewise, there are many MPs who’d be worse than him… and (perhaps ironically) that’s one of the reasons so many MPs still support him. That and a desperation to look united and not give the press the ammunition they love to press the “Labour divided can never run the UK” line.

I would be happier to have Clive Lewis as leader. He may turn out to be just as shit as Starmer but I doubt it. Of course he won’t be leader though will he.

+1

he said it six and a half years ago as part of telling people not to vote corbyn in the labour leadership election.

Which is precisely my point. The problem Tony Blair had with Corbyn wasn’t that Corbyn had an allotment or made his own jam, it was that Corbyn was offering a real alternative to the Tories.

It was an attitude widely shared with the PLP and it would not matter who the candidate was. It’s about politics, not personalities.

If you are looking for a Labour leader who will be more effective than Starmer and is more prepared to challenge the Tory agenda you are wasting your time. They will not be acceptable to the Blairites in the PLP and they will do whatever is necessary to destroy them.

They would much rather have a Tory prime minister than a Labour prime minister with a radical agenda. Starmer pretty much publicly admitted it a few days ago when he refused to say that he would have rather had Corbyn in Downing Street than Johnson. Even though had Corbyn become PM Starmer would have got his beloved second referendum, such is the hatred they feel for the left.

It is very obvious that the PLP is fully behind Starmer. That is not despite the fact that he is crap at opposing the Tory agenda, it is precisely because he is crap at opposing the Tory agenda. So if you are looking for someone who will do a better job you are wasting your time because that in itself will make them unacceptable to the Blairites who simply want to win an election so that they can continue with the Tory agenda. Or in certain cases such as tax on businesses take it further to the right.

They will not be acceptable to the Blairites in the PLP and they will do whatever is necessary to destroy them.

Yes, yes… that’s all very interesting. Who would YOU like to see lead the Labour Party instead of Starmer? Others are prepared to state preferences, and yet acknowledge that they’d probably not get through to be leader (whether blocked by MPs, unions or members)… but just wanting rid of Starmer, with no favoured succession plan at all, smacks of “burn it down, and see what grows”.

That is not despite the fact that he is crap at opposing the Tory agenda, it is precisely because he is crap at opposing the Tory agenda.

I’m not sure this is grounded in reality.

Many MPs will (publicly) support the leader ’till there is an opportunity to replace them with someone they think more suitable. I think most currently consider that opportunity is after the next election, and that appearing united (yeah right) will give them the best chance at that election. They might be right… but that isn’t (IMHO) a path to winning that next election. Starmer needs to go before it, and, like it or not, his replacement realistically needs to be a sitting MP. Lammy, Lewis, Jarvis, Rayner, MilibandV2… who could step in before the next election and put Labour on a better path? A better path both towards government and once in it (if they pull it off)?

I’m on the fence as regards primaries in seats where there’s already an incumbent Labour MP… only because sitting MPs should be accountable to their constituents first, and the constituency membership second…

The whole problem is that labour MPs can’t be challenged if they fail to fulfil their duty to the party membership and their constituents. The whole point of primaries is that incumbent MPs can be challenged. Constituents get their say at the election so there’s no lack of accountability. The labour membership however should have the opportunity to challenge an incumbent if they’re not happy with them. It works in the US, I fail to see why it wouldn’t here. Kate Hoey would have been long gone under a primary system.

Kate Hoey would have been long gone under a primary system.

…but then there’s safe seats… where realistically without members being able to change the MP, they can do pretty much what they hell they like, without regard to constituents anyway. As I said, on the fence.

Hoey should have been kicked out for being onthat boat with Farage.  People have been kicked out for less

I agree with Ernies basic thesis

The PLP have lost contact with reality.  Believe the myth that Blair won because he was Blair when actually anyone would have won then due to the work done by his predecessors and the total collapse of the tories

They are scared of anything radical because they have become followers not leaders and are scared of the right wing media and also it would mean admitting they have wasted 20 years of their careers going down a  blind alley

I also note Cooper has already made a tory style speech on cfriminal justice – ie hang’em and flog ’em

tjagain
Full Member

The PLP have lost contact with reality. Believe the myth that Blair won because he was Blair when actually anyone would have won then due to the work done by his predecessors and the total collapse of the tories

Honestly I think what the Labour party needs is to get everyone in a room, ask everyone “who thinks Blair made Labour electable” and then throw everyone who puts their hands up into a volcano.

Tony Blair was very very lucky with the first past the post election system and the arithmetic behind it.

In the 2017 general election the Tories received more votes than Labour did in 1997. However in 2017 Theresa May failed to win majority whilst in 1997 Blair won by a landslide.

In the 2019 general election Labour received more votes than they did in the 2005 general election. And yet Blair won the 2005 general election whilst Corbyn massively lost the 2019 general election.

How lucky was all that for Tony Blair?

There are more people, and more voters, in the UK now. We need to remember that when comparing “number of votes” decades apart.

First past the post is a mess though. It’s the elephant in the room. It needs be got rid of for Westminster elections, if we ever want MPs to properly represent is. As someone is banging on about all the time…

Clive Lewis

+2

ie hang’em and flog ’em

will go down a storm in her part of Pontefract. She knows her audience

What did she actually say?

There are more people, and more voters, in the UK now.

The difference is insufficient to explain it.

Labour received three quarters of a million more votes in 2019 than they did in 2005. In 2005 Labour won the general election whilst 2019 was allegedly, according to some, the worse result since 1935.

Do you think the UK electorate double or something in 14 years?

And the Conservatives won over 3 million votes more than Labour in 2019. They won 5 million more than they did in 2005.

Do you think the UK electorate double or something in 14 years?

What led you to concluding that? Did Labour win twice as many votes 14 years later?

Labour do benefit from FPTP greatly compared to other all UK parties, apart from, and this is a very big exception… the Conservative party.

But comparing “number of votes” across the decades is close to meaningless. Still trying to paint wins as losses and losses as wins.

I never voted for Blair, but he never lost. Obviously that wasn’t all down to him. I voted both times for Corbyn, but he lost both times. Also that wasn’t all down to him. But this madness of concentrating on “number of votes cast”, so many years apart, to somehow paint failure as success, shouldn’t have even made it into 2020, never made be dragged into 2022. It’s nonsense.

And the Conservatives won over 3 million votes more than Labour in 2019.

Eh? Are you trying to make my point for me?

Yes well spotted. It is not simply how well Labour does which decides the election result in FPTP but also the performance of the opposition, including how divided it is.

If you want to play around with percentages instead of total votes, because of changing electorate size, the picture is very similar.

In 2005 under Blair Labour received 35% share of the vote and won the general election, whilst under Corbyn in 2017 they received 40% and failed to win the election.

Two years later in 2019 Labour received 32% of the vote, only 3% less than when they won the general election on 2005, and it was, according to some, the worst result since 1935.

I repeat……Tony Blair was very very lucky with the first past the post election system and the arithmetic behind it.

Had an email from Mark Drakeford. I’m happy that refugee housing is being celebrated.

Tom —

In a few moments, I’m going to ask you to make a contribution to the Welsh Labour 2022 Fighting Fund, but first I want to talk to you about our movement, Wales and why it’s so important.

I love this time of year.

The crisp mornings of a Welsh winter; planting bulbs for the spring and the anticipation of the year ahead –we’re less than a month away from a new year, and all the possibilities that come with it.

Next May, there will be local government elections in all 22 council areas in Wales. Welsh Labour currently holds 10 councils in Wales. As the leader of Welsh Labour, I know just how important it is to have a Labour council and I know the work all our councils and councillors do is vital and life-changing.

This year the brilliant Welsh Labour administration in Rhondda Cynon Taf worked to resettle people fleeing the chaos in Afghanistan. They put our Labour values into action, making Wales a Nation of Sanctuary and helping to give families hope for the future.

This is just one example of the many ways our Welsh Labour councils change lives every day.

It’s also an example of what we could lose.

When the Taliban overran Afghanistan, imagine if one of our exceptional Welsh Labour councils had been led by the Tories. We only need to look at the cold shoulder Conservative council leaders have given to refugees across the UK – Labour councils are housing eight times as many refugees as Conservative ones.

The election next year is not just about what we could lose – it is also about the hope of what more we could achieve together.

As we launched our campaign for the Senedd elections earlier this year, I remember being told we were facing the worst result Welsh Labour had ever seen.

Well, they were wrong. The polls were wrong. The people of Wales were right – they put their trust in Welsh Labour.

When our movement pulls together and works towards a common goal, we know we can achieve what others have written off as being too hard. That’s why school children won’t go hungry this Christmas.

That’s why I never give up when people tell me we can’t do it – and why you shouldn’t either.

We’re facing another tough election, but it could also be great. That’s why I’m asking for your help. Will you contribute to our Welsh Labour 2022 Fighting Fund today to help us defend our Welsh Labour Councils and win control of more?

Imagine, a Labour leader who comes across as genuine and compassionate not just a product of focus groups desperate to please the Daily Mail.

I know! Actual morals

For balance Keir’s last one to me. It’s ok “Promises should not be broken”

Tom,

Boris Johnson’s Conservatives have let you down.

More so than ever, I have been bitterly disappointed in the way this Government has acted over the last few weeks.

A corruption scandal exposed which they tried to cover up.

A cowardly, watered-down plan for dodgy second jobs – which means less than ten MPs would be affected by the rules.

Another broken promise, this time on rail expansion, so thousands of people in the North are left without connectivity to the rest of the country.

The thing is, they think that people won’t notice as they orchestrate the system to benefit themselves rather than others.

But people do notice.

Households notice when they are worse-off due to rising energy bills and tax hikes.

Pensioners notice when Boris Johnson’s social care cap means they have to sell their homes to pay for care.

Commuters notice when they are faced with no public transport to get from A to B.

That is why I do everything I can to hold this corrupt Government to account.

With Labour, working people would be put first.

We would cut energy bills for the winter months so households don’t feel the pinch.

And Labour would clean up the sleaze in Westminster by banning paid consultancies and directorships immediately.

Tom, I know that a brighter future for this country is possible.

Politics should not be mired in corruption.

Public office should not be used for private gain.

Promises should not be broken.

That’s the difference a Labour Government would make.

Thank you,

Keir Starmer