Viewing 40 posts - 11,041 through 11,080 (of 21,584 total)
  • Sir! Keir! Starmer!
  • thestabiliser
    Free Member

    Immigration isn’t an issue in Scottish politics because immigration isn’t a an issue in Scotland (relatively). It’s an issue in England as it has madr very visible, tangible changes to communities. Sadly, human nature being what is, this difference has exploited and now a large part of the English electorate blame immigrants for their troubles rather than the people telling them to blame immigrants as a smokescreen for their dismantling of public services and workers/civil rights. Screaming “racist” at these people is not going to change their minds, telling them the economy/businesses benefit from immigration won’t either because they don’t directly see that benefit. Waking them up to who’s really shafting them might but is hard to do.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Immigration isn’t an issue in Scottish politics because immigration isn’t a an issue in Scotland (relatively).

    It hasn’t been made a voting issue by politicians. Some have tried, and mainstream politicians pushed back against that, rather than adopting it for their own ends.

    It’s an issue in England as it has madr very visible, tangible changes to communities.

    Someone hasn’t been to Scotland. Immigration is very visible (and tangible) there, especially if you’re using tourist related facilities. That industry wouldn’t function as it does now without recent migrants. Who knows how it’ll fare over the next decade.

    johnx2
    Free Member

    …context in scotland is a long term trend of population decline slowed mainly by the population aging, not a great recipe for a thriving economy but countered by immigration in the last 15 years for which the country had been crying out.

    (See i dunno: https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/769616: If current trends continue, Scotland’s population will fall below 5 million in 2017 and reach 4.6 million by 2042. This means, in percentage terms, the population will be about 10 per cent smaller in 2042 than at present.)

    On topic:

    I wonder if Starmer will be pleading for unpaid overtime

    You probably do.

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middling Edition

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middlin...
    Latest Singletrack Videos
    kelvin
    Full Member

    There was the same trend in some English and Welsh regions, especially rural ones… where there was demand for immigration, the workers went there. Despite that, many rural areas in England and Wales still have a shrinking and ageing population.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Immigration isn’t an issue in Scottish politics because immigration isn’t a an issue in Scotland (relatively).

    Or because Scotland already has a bogeyman.

    thestabiliser
    Free Member

    I’ve been to Scotland thanks.

    johnx2
    Free Member

    Despite that, many rural areas in England and Wales still have a shrinking and ageing population.

    …and most parts of Scotland, with immigration mainly to the central belt.

    Oh and:

    shrinking and ageing

    bit personal. You don’t even know me.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Or because Scotland already has a bogeyman.

    What, Conservative rule in the UK? All the opposition politicians down here have that bogey man as well. They don’t need to do the nod and the wink about immigrants.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Immigration is very visible (and tangible) there, especially if you’re using tourist related facilities. That industry wouldn’t function as it does now without recent migrants. Who knows how it’ll fare over the next decade.

    Yup

    We have 3 polish shops on leith walk, our hospitality industry is in collapse because many of the EU immigrants went home and there is no one to do those jobs, health care workers are in short supply because – you know brexit

    Immigration isn’t an issue in Scottish politics because immigration isn’t a an issue in Scotland (relatively).

    Immigration is a huge issue in Scottish politics.  Brexit, the hostile envoronment and the eu immigrants going home has caused huge issues

    anti immigration rhetoric is a non issue in Scottish politics because as kelvin says anytime someone tries with this dog whistle rubbish they get firmly slapped down

    “The UK Government’s refusal to listen to our call to extend the deadline is unacceptable and means all EU citizens must urgently apply for settled status if they have not already done so,” Ms Sturgeon said.

    “To all EU citizens my message is this – Scotland is a better country because you are here. You are part of us and we badly want you to stay.”

    She said she was “utterly heartbroken” at the situation after speaking to Virginia Zamojski – known as Ginny Tate – a 31-year-old healthcare support worker who has spent the vast majority of her life living in Fife.

    Ms Sturgeon told the PA news agency: “She came here from Germany at three years old, she’s been in the care system and she’s as Scottish as I am but she’s having to apply for the right to stay here.

    “It’s absolutely despicable.

    “These are people who work in our health service, our social care system and our food and drink sector.

    “We need people to want to live and work in Scotland, and anything that puts a barrier in the way of that is not just wrong in principle but it’s actually undermining our own self interest.”

    “The Scottish Government has urged the UK to participate fully in proposed EU action – such as on relocation and resettlement,” Scottish First Minister Sturgeon said, adding “Scotland is willing to take our fair share of refugees”.

    Now compare that to Burnham

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Scottish First Minister Sturgeon, who was yesterday being sworn in as a member of the Scottish Parliament (MSP) following last week’s elections, tweeted that she was “deeply concerned” by the Home Office’s actions, adding that the raid was especially harmful “in the heart of a community celebrating Eid”.

    Sturgeon continued that she “will be demanding assurances from the UK government that they will never again create, through their actions, such a dangerous situation. No assurances were given – and frankly no empathy shown – when I managed to speak to a junior minister earlier.

    “I disagree fundamentally with [the Home Office’s] immigration policy but even putting that aside, this action was unacceptable. To act in this way, in the heart of a Muslim community as they celebrated Eid, and in an area experiencing a Covid outbreak was a health and safety risk.”

    this was after the abortive raid to remove asylum seekers as was this

    In a second tweet, Yousaf continued that he “abhors Home Office immigration policy at the best of times”, adding that “to have taken the action they have today is at best completely reckless, and at worst intended to provoke”.

    thestabiliser
    Free Member

    We have 3 polish shops on leith walk,

    Yeaaaahhh. Not quite Longsight or Digbeth eh?

    Immigration is a huge issue in Scottish politics. Brexit, the hostile envoronment and the eu immigrants going home has caused huge issues

    Ok THE NEGATIVE PORTRAYAL OF immigration….

    thestabiliser
    Free Member

    Block quote fail

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Thats right – the negative potrayal of immigration is a huge non issue because anyone who tries it gets slapped down firmly.

    Read those quotes and see what real leaders do over this issue.  they lead public sentiment and do not support anti racist rhetoric

    Its best summed up by bashir Ahmed a decade or more ago  ” Its not where I come from as a person that matters.  Its where we are going as a country”

    thestabiliser
    Free Member

    But the material conditions on the ground in England are different and the genie is out of the bottle. You can’t address the issue without addressing the issue. You HAVE to acknowledge that a lot of people hold these concerns before you can turn the tide

    This demographic is the base, working class core of the labour vote in England, and they’ve been lost to crass populism because labour no longer they need to be brought back on side. That might take a generation. Dunno.

    dazh
    Full Member

    Yeaaaahhh. Not quite Longsight

    I lived in Longsight for over 10 years, and then 12 years in Levenshulme. What’s your point?

    ransos
    Free Member

    You HAVE to acknowledge that a lot of people hold these concerns before you can turn the tide

    It’s also fair to say that not all of these concerns are racist. Some areas have seen significant immigration over the last twenty years, and there hasn’t been the necessary investment in public services to match. People found that all of a sudden they could no longer get a school place or a doctor’s appointment, so I do have some sympathy.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    I lived on the Whalley range / mosside boarder for 10 years and do not get the point.

    This demographic is the base, working class core of the labour vote in England, they need to be brought back on side.

    And the right way to do this is by making anti immigrant rhetoric?  Really?  Or is the right way to lead, to set an example and to teach the reality

    when I first lived in Scotland in the 70s anti english racism was rife and anti immigrant rhetoric was probably worse than in england.  Now the anti english racism is only a tiny fringe and anti immigrant rhetoric firmly consigned to the fringes.

    the difference?  Political LEADERSHIP!  Not weathervane politicians who will say what they think people want to hear

    thestabiliser
    Free Member

    Lots of brown people live there. Some white people view that negatively/threateningly. I didn’t when I lived there, as I assume neither did you. But some people do.

    nickc
    Full Member

    Thats right – the negative potrayal of immigration is a huge non issue because anyone who tries it gets slapped down firmly.

    Yes, but to deny people who live in areas of high immigration their actual lived experience, block filling of jobs on production lines by agencies, lower daily rates of pay, longer hours etc your own middle class comfort blinds you to any other motive other than just “dislike of foreigners” As others have pointed out Scottish politics has it’s own special bogeyman, not available to the likes of Farage and Patel.  Burnham also pointed out in his speech (the bits you often leave out) that the issue was big businesses trafficking vulnerable workers for maximum profit.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Its not the actual lived experience – its the lies they have been fed over decades.  If it were true then why do we now have huge shortages of workers in retail, healthcare and hospitality?

    this idea Scotland has its own “bogeyman” so does not need anti immigrant rhetoric is utter nonsense and both ignorant and offensive.

    Remember I am obviously of english descent, I have a very english accent and am very sensitive to racism.  It is simply not the case that anti english sentiment ( which is what you are implying) has the same role in Scotland as anti immigrant rhetoric does in england.  Pure baloney!

    Edinburgh is so full or immigrants that an Edinburgh accent becomes a rarity.  The majority of my friends are immigrants

    nickc
    Full Member

    Its not the actual lived experience

    Oh right, I hadn’t realised you were omniscient.  Well, there’s no arguing with that

    dissonance
    Full Member

    If it were true then why do we now have huge shortages of workers in retail, healthcare and hospitality?

    You do realise that doesnt really support your argument? From the perspective of those looking for jobs in those sectors then the shortages are actually beneficial since it puts them in a better bargaining position (at least in the short term you then start running into automation/giving up alternatives).

    this idea Scotland has its own “bogeyman” so does not need anti immigrant rhetoric is utter nonsense and both ignorant and offensive.

    Sorry but you announcing something as fact doesnt make it so.

    Edinburgh is so full or immigrants that an Edinburgh accent becomes a rarity.

    I am not sure how that really helps your previous statement and also doesnt add much anyway. After all immigration attitudes in London are way different to some of the red wall towns.
    Cities by their nature tend to be a lot more mixed.

    kerley
    Free Member

    Whether the issues caused by mis-managed immigration are an issue to you or not does not mean those that it is directly an issue for are all racists.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    When the “Issues” presented are all untrue and have been grossly inflated / invented by racists its a false premise.

    Jeepers guys can you not see how you have been manipulated?  20 years of Anti racist and pro immigration / integration rhetoric from scots politicians has lead to a huge reduction in predjudice

    In england you have had 20 years of anti immigration rhetoric and its poisoned peoples minds

    this is the leadership point.   Good leaders LEAD.  they set the political agenda.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Sorry but you announcing something as fact doesnt make it so.

    OK – give me an example of this mythical “bogeyman” that comes from someone in the mainstream?  Yo are so certain that this imaginary “bogeyman” fulfills the same role in Scotland as the anti immigrant lies in england then you must have some examples?

    back in the 70s were were often told to go back home and we were not wanted.  haven’t head that in decades.  haven’t see a single ;piece of anti english predjudice in decades

    nickc
    Full Member

    When the “Issues” presented are all untrue and have been grossly inflated / invented by racists its a false premise.

    Just one example: The production line at the chicken processing plant in the town of Brackley has almost no local workers in it. They are routinely bussed in from Northampton Kettering, Corby and Wellingborough, and are almost all eastern European doing a 12 hour shift for minimum wage that has deductions made from it for “accommodation” and “processing” and “documents clearance” etc. To get a job on the production line, you apply to the agency, not to the factory gate directly. What should be a thriving locally staffed long term employer has in fact almost entirely handed the staffing to two or three “Partner Agencies”. who will only employ those it can exploit. The factory of course, turns a blind eye to this, after all, all their staff on employed legally and are on minimum wages

    That’s one example of one factory in one small market town in the South Midlands. If you think that’s an isolated case, your omniscience isn’t as good as you think.

    binners
    Full Member

    Jeepers guys can you not see how you have been manipulated?

    Oh, here we go….

    Again…

    Anyone who doesn’t agree with me and recognise the obvious wisdom of my argument is a mindless drone, incapable of independent thought and needing their opinions spoon fed to them by daily mail editorials and Tory politicians

    🙄

    grum
    Free Member

    Re immigration levels in Scotland

    I don’t know the stats but having had a baby born in a Glasgow hospital recently who was in intensive care for a couple of weeks – I was quite surprised by the fact that the vast majority of staff there were white and British-born. This is the direct reverse of my experience of hospitals in England.

    this idea Scotland has its own “bogeyman” so does not need anti immigrant rhetoric is utter nonsense and both ignorant and offensive.

    I think there’s something in it tbh. It’s more justified though.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    daily mail editorials and Tory politicians

    Was his point not that it hasn’t been limited to the Daily Mail and Tory politicians? Everyone has been on board at some point… from Burnham to the BBC… from Miliband to the Mirror… it’s entirely normalised, entirely mainstream in our politics and press. As is the idea that countering anti-immigrant claims is “selling out the working class”.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    Everyone has been on board at some point… from Burnham to the BBC… from Miliband to the Mirror…

    So the BBC and Miliband are also guilty of pandering to racists?

    How come TJ has singled out Burnham for special criticism then?

    According to TJ Burnham is no different to Gordon Brown, Jack Straw, and now apparently, Ed Miliband.

    So why does he bring up this argument about racism every time Burnham’s name is mentioned?

    kerley
    Free Member

    When the “Issues” presented are all untrue and have been grossly inflated / invented by racists its a false premise.

    All of the issues are untrue, interesting. Do you want to give me a list of all the issues you have analysed as being untrue? You must have that to make such a bold statement?

    Try to keep an open mind. Immigration does cause real issues. They can be tackled and resolved if any government/council wants to try but they are still real issues.
    They can also be used to base a racist agenda on, but still issues.

    dazh
    Full Member

    What should be a thriving locally staffed long term employer has in fact almost entirely handed the staffing to two or three “Partner Agencies”. who will only employ those it can exploit.

    So as I said above, instead of focusing attention on those “comin’ over ere, stealing our jobs”, focus instead on providing a level playing field where all workers get the same and aren’t exploited. People on the left have been saying this for as long as immigration has been an issue and yet every time the argument goes back to ‘controls on immigration’. We don’t need controls on immigration, we need controls on exploiting workers. I recognise though that many see that as a 6th form pipe dream.

    Seems to me in this case the simple solution is to prevent businesses hiring people via dodgy agencies who exclude local workers. Would that be pro-business though?

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Would it be pro-business? Yes… taking away competitive advantages gained by some companies exploiting workers is very pro-business. Just as it is pro-worker. A level playing field for the employers who don’t use such exploitative practices.

    big_n_daft
    Free Member

    According to TJ Burnham is no different to Gordon Brown, Jack Straw, and now apparently, Ed Miliband.

    He’s wrong again, Burnham can eat a bacon sandwich, he also doesn’t rack up the air miles to the states nor go to court to change a relative’s will

    tjagain
    Full Member

    So where are the examples of Scotlands own bogeyman that means we do not need this anti immigrant rhetoric?

    come on – several of you made this claim and I countered it was total bobbins – so lets see some examples?

    Was his point not that it hasn’t been limited to the Daily Mail and Tory politicians? Everyone has been on board at some point… from Burnham to the BBC… from Miliband to the Mirror… it’s entirely normalised, entirely mainstream in our politics and press. As is the idea that countering anti-immigrant claims is “selling out the working class”.

    Bingo – you get it!

    Whereas in Scotland the anti immigrant rhetoric has been consigned to the fringes because the political leaders up here reject it and slap down hard anyone who tries to make a play based on it

    this is the difference between leadership and weathervane politicians

    Ernie – Burnham was particularly obvious the way he did it but any politician of any party who gets embroiled in anti immigrant rhetoric should be ashamed.  All they do is legitimatize anti immigrant feeling

    BillMC
    Full Member

    I’ve seen a town fill up with ex-auction cars with mobile numbers in the window so that you couldn’t park, noisy multiple occupancy round-the-clock houses, son applies for a summer job (‘you don’t speak *** and they wouldn’t work with you anyway’), alienated workers smashed off their faces in the morning, beer tins all around park benches (next to the litter bin), all unpleasant and anti-social stuff but arising from the neo-liberal movement of cheap super-exploited labour whilst extolling some virtue signalling ‘anti-racism’ to justify it all. The real issues are about poverty and insecure employment but those issues are conveniently fogged up by ethnicity. Go to any poor area and it’s going to be shit.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    I don’t know the stats but having had a baby born in a Glasgow hospital recently who was in intensive care for a couple of weeks – I was quite surprised by the fact that the vast majority of staff there were white and British-born.

    Highly unusual.  Sure there were no  EU born staff?

    My ward before I retired

    3 black african staff.  5 asian subcontinent.  1 philipino, one madagascan, 3 Basque, 5 polish, One belarus, one korean. one chinese one ukranian, one bulgarian

    Around half the staff first generation immigrants

    big_n_daft
    Free Member

    .

    kerley
    Free Member

    We don’t need controls on immigration, we need controls on exploiting workers.

    Exactly, which is how the issues can be fixed/managed.
    Unfortunately it is easier for the tory party to state immigration is the problem which is also convenient otherwise they have to blame themselves for not managing immigration, controlling exploitation etc,. The voters seems to buy it.

    big_n_daft
    Free Member

    If it were true then why do we now have huge shortages of workers in retail, healthcare and hospitality

    No global pandemic then…….

    During the Brexit vote we were told there were 2 million EU citizens in the UK, roll forward and 5 million have successfully applied for settled status

Viewing 40 posts - 11,041 through 11,080 (of 21,584 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.