I appreciate that many in the Labour party would like a more ‘traditional Labour’ government, but unfortunately, generally, the electorate disagrees.

Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband both lost general elections, and Starmer will lose the next one.

Ed Miliband not right-wing enough? Gordon Brown not New Labour enough?

What is Starmer’s problem…..too left wing?

Her redeeming qualities lie in her abilities as shown by her performance in the select committee.
Her voter appeal lies in her competence.

Well of course she has abilities, the woman won a Kennedy scholarship to Harvard ffs. No reason I should think it is a redeeming quality though, plenty of Tory politicians have a great deal of ability.

And you really think that her alleged voter appeal lies in her competence? Is that what attracted voters to Boris Johnson…his competence?

Don’t forget that her husband was on Strictly

Big vote winner, that

The thing is, anything further ‘left’ of New Labour has been proven, repeatedly, sufficiently unpopular with the electorate.

New Labour was popular twenty years ago. It’s about as relevant as Harold Wilson or Clement Atlee.

I can’t stand Yvette Cooper, more Blairite than Blair

Why not be honest and just leave it there?

She’s Labour centric, if you’re Labour left then you will dislike her on a fundamental level, anything past that is bias confirming garnish. The Labour Party has been made up of Democratic Socialists and social-democrats for decades and has lost elections to in-fighting and bickering.

The Labour Party, and Labour voters need to make their mind up, Labour has been in opposition now for more than a decade, and if an election were to be called next year, they’re far from guaranteed a victory. Do you want to spend another decade arguing over the small stuff, whilst the Tories gain another 5 years?

The Democratic Socialists have had 11 years and 3 general elections with the Leadership of the Labour party, and they lost, we can debate the hows and whys until the cows come home, but those are the facts.

Starmer is a a Labour Centrist, I know, to the Left he’s right-wing, verging on a Blairite (only said whilst spitting on the floor) but it’s only a matter of perspective and like it or not, he’s going to build the shadow cabinet with MPs of the same persuasion, in the same way every successful Labour leader has done before.

If you want a Labour PM with a Labour Government, even if it’s not the perfect shade of Red you’d like, then you have to get onboard with it.

Starmer is a a Labour Centrist, I know, to the Left he’s right-wing, verging on a Blairite (only said whilst spitting on the floor) but it’s only a matter of perspective and like it or not, he’s going to build the shadow cabinet with MPs of the same persuasion, in the same way every successful Labour leader has done before.

Funny, cos that’s not what his leadership manifesto said…

And I think that’s the problem many of us have with him – he’s a liar.

Why not be honest and just leave it there?

Which bit do you think is dishonest? And the reason I didn’t leave it there was that I was challenged, like you have just done, quite extensively.

Would it help the thread if I just changed my opinions to conform with the general consensus?

She’s Labour centric, if you’re Labour left then you will dislike her on a fundamental level, anything past that is bias confirming garnish.

Yes because its always the left wings fault isnt it?

If you want a Labour PM with a Labour Government, even if it’s not the perfect shade of Red you’d like, then you have to get onboard with it.

As arguments go that might have worked before the lunatics on the right of labour made it clear they would prefer a hard right government than anything left wing.
Given the evidence of how far the overton window shifted last wing why would anyone want to repeat the same mistake?

Well of course she has abilities, the woman won a Kennedy scholarship to Harvard ffs. No reason I should think it is a redeeming quality though, plenty of Tory politicians have a great deal of ability.

And you really think that her alleged voter appeal lies in her competence? Is that what attracted voters to Boris Johnson…his competence?

I said her competence is a redeeming quality, do you think she is competent?

Boris voter appeal was not his competence, his jack the lad spirit was his voter appeal. He did not appeal to me but to deny him of having voter appeal (to a certain demographic) would be silly.

Funny, cos that’s not what his leadership manifesto said…

Miliband played the same game in 2010. Beat his brother by positioning himself to the left of him… and never stuck to it as leader. One face for a leadership battle, a different one when facing the nation.

I can’t stand Yvette Cooper, more Blairite than Blair and probably more Tory than some Tories.

So probably slap bang in the middle of where much of the voting public are.

This!

In the bell curve of the UK electorate the mode is probably just left of 5 (if extreme left is 0 and extreme right is 10) and 80% of the electorate are probably between 4 and 6.

The self-selecting Labour membership is being pulled towards 3, where the ideological purity is better, but the number of voters is vanishingly small.

What’s better, a hard left protest group or a centre-left government?

Beat his brother by positioning himself to the left of him…

It’s hard to imagine an easier thing for him to do.

So how did it turn out for Ed Miliband? Since you appear to be claiming that Starmer is simply following Ed Miliband’s tactics.

The self-selecting Labour membership is being pulled towards 3, where the ideological purity is better, but the number of voters is vanishingly small.

Quite. Labour should be slap bang in the middle, where they will hoover up all the Lib Dem votes.

What’s better, a hard left protest group or a centre-left government?

Said with so much conviction. I guess the reason Labour are polling so badly is because Starmer hasn’t moved the party to the right enough.

I’m sure that with a bit of effort he could shift the party to the right of the Tories……then they’ll be romping home to victory next general election.

And that’s what really matters, nothing else does.

So how did it turn out for Ed Miliband?

I can’t answer that. He might be happy that he got a shot. But for his party, and the country, not very well at all. He wasn’t ready to be leader.

I’d take him as PM *now* in a heartbeat though.

Since you appear to be claiming that Starmer is simply following Ed Miliband’s tactics.

I make no such claim. Only that how someone wins a leadership campaign, and how they go on to lead the party, has differed before, and will do again. Far from unusual, and not unexpected. And whether it’s cynically planned, tactics if you like, or responding to events and the reality of running a party, I don’t know.

What’s better, a hard left protest group or a centre-left government?

Welsh independence.

What’s better, a hard left protest group or a centre-left government?

The latter for me.

Only that how someone wins a leadership campaign, and how they go on to lead the party, has differed before, and will do again.

Almost a requirement of leadership when you stop to think about it. Possibly a little less so in the Tory party who find it easier to hold their noses and support anyone they think might win.

Cooper.  Nose right in the trugh.  Her and balls made themselves rich on housing expenses.   I dont care if no law was broken.   It stinks to high heaven https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5325590/Ed-Balls-and-Yvette-Cooper-flipped-homes-three-times-MPs-expenses.html

Employed their son  on an obviously bogus basis

Takes 600000pa in donation from a private company

I do not want someone who behaves like that and thinks that acceptable in cabinet

Much of the wrongdooing is in Balls name as well.  Ill look it up later

Doesn’t Yvette Cooper have a tiny majority?

Is there any more party desperation than constant reshuffles?

Binnwrs i never said Burnham was racist.  I said he played the race card and he did.  At the time i gave you the quotes and you agreed it stank

I think this was the speech.  Nothing overt but its clear his aims and he hits a lot of the buttons

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/andy-burnham-claimed-eu-immigration-071841121.html

Stay expertly informed anywhere, anytime with a Digital Subscription.

I feel disappointed and let down to learn that you have a subscription with the Daily Telegraph TJ !

And just as I was appreciating our shared dislike of Yvette Cooper 😟

What’s better, a hard left protest group or a centre-left government

Are you new here? Pass the placard comrade, and could you sign this petition the Canary just tweeted calling for equal rights for disabled transsexuals in the Gaza Strip…

Is there any more party desperation than constant reshuffles?

Constant? Yes.

How many has Starmer had?

What-s-name had to go from shadow home secretary though. Unpopular, I know, but I think Nandy would have been a good choice for that role, but the list of MPs that I think would have been more effective than what-s-name is pretty long, and does include Cooper.

Best promotion – Lammy.
Worst promotion – Streeting.

A mixed bag, but overall feels like a stronger front bench to me… more pushy, more challenging for ministers to deal with I hope… and I mean in the media more than in parliament (but there as well).

I dont have a sub Ernie.  Wouldn’t dream of it

The wonderful irony binners is that “careful now” and “down with this sort of thing” is exactly what you think the Labour Party campaigning sentiments should be ……. nothing too radical which might upset the Tory press.

You are happy to see the Labour Party take on the role of a middle-class protest group.

I dont have a sub Ernie. Wouldn’t dream of it

So you provided a link to an article you hadn’t read?

Oh i read it.  Aomething odd but it opened fine for me.  If it didn’t work for you then I am confused

Do you want a copy and paste or is the headline enough?

How many has Starmer had?

2 in 7 months I think.

3 in total?

James O’Brien was having kittens when Corbyn reshuffled.

The Conservatives take back their voting intention lead.

Westminster Voting Intention (29 Nov):

Conservative 38% (+1)
Labour 36% (-1)
Liberal Democrat 10% (+1)
Green 6% (–)
Scottish National Party 4% (–)
Reform UK 4% (–)
Other 2% (–)

Changes +/- 21 Novhttps://t.co/JbyxvVjHnZ pic.twitter.com/l3qfEfzxQj

— Redfield & Wilton Strategies (@RedfieldWilton) November 29, 2021

Let’s see what happens after this.

What’s better, a hard left protest group or a centre-left government?

And today’s award for a false dichotomy goes to…

Here’s Labour’s % of the vote at the last few general elections:

2010 – 29.0
2015 – 30.4
2017 – 40
2019 – 32.1

The lowest share was under one of the architects of New Labour, the highest under its most left wing leader. Immaterial as all of those elections were lost, but the idea that Starmer gets the keys to No.10 by moving to the right doesn’t really stack up. It’s interesting that Labour won in 2005 with just 35.2% of the vote – Blair was very fortunate that i) the Tories were a mess, ii) the Lib Dems split the vote and iii) FPTP distorted the result

If it didn’t work for you then I am confused

No it didn’t work for me…. it’s presumably worked out from my internet history that I’m too left-wing and won’t let through the paywall. You obviously didn’t have a problem 🧐

I have never managed to penetrate the Telegraph’s paywall. I don’t feel it’s a huge loss though.

Immaterial as all of those elections were lost

The only part of that statement that actually matters

God knows how many times we have to repeat this…

It’s like a football match. Nobody gives a toss about which team had the most possession or the highest number of corners, all that counts is who got the three points

You lefties are the political equivalent of Jose Mourhino

Blair was very fortunate that i) the Tories were a mess, ii) the Lib Dems split the vote and iii) FPTP distorted the result

Also don’t forget that the Tories had been in government for 18 years, eventually voters get fed up with the same governing party and simply yearn for change.

Which is one of the reasons why until his unexpected death John Smith was widely predicted to be certain to win the 1997 general election.

It’s like a football match.

No it’s not like a football match. It’s nothing like a football match. But obviously you treat politics as if it’s some sort of game binners….. a typical middle-class attitude.

God knows how many times we have to repeat this…

Indeed.

It’s like a football match. Nobody gives a toss about which team had the most possession or the highest number of corners, all that counts is who got the three points

Well, to torture your incorrect analogy a bit more, Labour has lost four consecutive matches with three different managers and three different styles of play. And they fluked a victory in the match before, against the run of play.

But the bigger question is what is the point of winning?

Binnets

Do you think that conduct of Coopers acceptable?

Do you think that speech from Burnham is acceptable?

I don’t even know what you’re on about

What and what?

No it’s not like a football match. It’s nothing like a football match.

So can you tell me what matters other who won? I’m all ears…

But the bigger question is what is the point of winning?

You get to enact your policies

FREE PIES FOR EVERYONE!!!

Vote for me, comrades

Burnham’s speech i linked to and Coopers frank abuse of expenses linked to.  A few posts up

Is there any point discussing it on here?

Nope

Not only do I not think it’s remotely racist, I can’t comprehend why you’d think it was.

What I do think is that if ‘the left’ didn’t hysterically soil itself every time anyone brokered the subject maybe they wouldn’t have surrendered the whole issue to the Faragists (and opportunists like Johnson) and we wouldn’t be where we are

Now, do you want more details of my free pies policy or not?