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  • Sir! Keir! Starmer!
  • Premier Icon dazh
    Full Member

    and yes, the “balanced book” model although really simple and attractive, is a lie and most folks have come to that conclusion.

    Hang on you just said it was a conspiracy theory a few posts ago. When I was talking about the public being lied to for 50 years that’s exactly what I was referring to. Most of the public know that it’s bollocks, but politicians (from both sides), economists, and the media continue with the fiction that ‘the debt’ is a problem that needs to be repaid.

    I know how much you dislike David Graeber but he nailed this a long time ago. The problem is the psychology of debt, and that’s something that’s serves the singular purpose of the wealthy and powerful. It’s not a conspiracy theory to call that out.

    Premier Icon rone
    Free Member

    Unfortunately there is no current thinking in Labour that will go down the path of not balancing the books.

    The evidence particularly in the USA shows multiple recessions after the occasional time they have managed to create a surplus. So that’s money not flowing into the private sector.

    Labour think it sells. (You could argue it didn’t in 2019) – it sounds conversative, prudent and responsible at first.

    Around 2018 – John McDonell met with Bill Mitchell (MMT proponent) to discuss economic policy. McDonell rejected it from what I’ve read.

    So yeah it’s not just a Left good Right bad thing.

    They were advised by Simon Wren-Lewis too who has got his head up his arse quite frankly.

    James Meadway was also against it and he was involved in the manifesto costings that he believes were solid.

    James is okay actually. He accepts Taxes don’t necessarily fund spending. But he’s still on the Keynes / Borrowing side. And is clearly more qualified than me to speak!

    Until the advisors push them one way or another you’re stuck in the dark ages with Tax and Spend. (Pandemic spend first remember.)

    Sunak gauls me in particular – with his Government doesn’t have any of its own money line. Flat out lie.

    Governments sitting on cash with the idea that the country has ran out of money is false, counter-intuitive and ultimately devastating for our country.

    It takes a long time to turn a big ship.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    stuck in the dark ages with Tax and Spend

    All approaches require taxing and spending, none relies solely on taxes to fund spending.

    Premier Icon kerley
    Free Member

    Most of the public know that it’s bollocks, but politicians (from both sides), economists, and the media continue with the fiction that ‘the debt’ is a problem that needs to be repaid.

    While agree with the continued fiction I really do not think “Most” of the public know it is bollocks.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Full Member

    While agree with the continued fiction I really do not think “Most” of the public know it is bollocks.

    They may not understand why, but I think instinctively they know that repaying the debt is a load of rubbish, because it’s not hard for them to see that when the govt needs money it’s always available. What they don’t know is that money could be used to make their lives better, instead of fighting wars, bailing out banks or propping up bankrupt energy companies.

    Maybe you’re right though, I mean OOB on this very forum, who clearly is not an idiot, seems to think it’s a problem so it’s entirely possible that I’m wrong.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    Any simply models of how the state functions are “lies” or “bollocks” or a “fiction”.

    The plan for Labour seems to be “trust us, we’ll spend wisely”, which is what voters want to hear from them. Yes, they do. It helps point the finger at the current government, and describe what they are doing in terms that will chime with the feeling that they are corrupt and wasteful.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Free Member

    It is worth playing the ball when the man in possession is credible, but you just happen to disagree with him. In Owen Jones’ case there really is no need.

    I think that says more about you than him.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    I enjoy Owen Jones’ writing. He puts passion into it. I agree with him often. But he is an unreliable and inconsistent witness.

    Premier Icon johnx2
    Free Member

    they do eat a lot of Quinoa. It’s very popular on the menu at Ottolenghis.

    Quino-annon? I don’t think quinoa’s that bad, but ate one of his recipes recently with hot chilies and tofu which had very serious repercussions.

    Premier Icon dannyh
    Full Member

    I think that says more about you than him.

    Well, frankly, you would say that.

    Tedious.

    🥱

    Premier Icon ransos
    Free Member

    Tedious.

    Indeed. But you are being consistent at least.

    Premier Icon dannyh
    Full Member

    Indeed. But you are being consistent at least.

    Meh.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Free Member

    Meh.

    QED.

    Premier Icon ctk
    Full Member

    Clive Lewis talking sense

    Premier Icon cultsdave
    Free Member

    , but I think instinctively they know that repaying the debt is a load of rubbish,

    I think you give the general public too much credit. Hence why we have had 10 years of tory Austerity.

    Premier Icon kerley
    Free Member

    I think you give the general public too much credit.

    Whereas I admit I give them too little credit. I am surprised most can even work out how to go and vote.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    That was a great podcast ctk. Thanks.

    I recommend everyone else gives it a listen as well.

    Premier Icon rone
    Free Member

    All approaches require taxing and spending, none relies solely on taxes to fund spending

    Not quite. Let’s be completely clear taxes do not fund spending in central government. Currency issuer.

    Central government: Spending comes first. The money has to be spent into existence before it can be taxed back out.

    This is key to unraveling how it actually works.

    Taxing at a local level though for sure. Currency user.

    Premier Icon rone
    Free Member

    The plan for Labour seems to be “trust us, we’ll spend wisely”, which is what voters want to hear from them

    Doesn’t work. The evidence is there.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    Not quite.

    Go on then, describe how you get by without either taxes or spending… no one said which comes first… it’s not an output follows input situation (this is not the economics of the household or business).

    Doesn’t work.

    Hasn’t worked. It has to happen to unseat the Tories. Winning the trust of the public is essential.

    Premier Icon rone
    Free Member

    Go on then, describe how you get by without either taxes or spending… no one said which comes first… it’s not an output follows input situation (this is not the economics of the household or business

    That’s not what you said.

    You said all approaches need taxing and spending.

    The order completely matters.

    Apologies if I misunderstood what you are saying. For sure taxing is an essential part of the monetary system.

    Premier Icon rone
    Free Member

    Hasn’t worked. It has to happen to unseat the Tories. Winning the trust of the public is essential.

    Fiscal credibility rule or its ilk has been part of several attempts at Government.

    In what way did it work?

    It’s nothing new.

    The opposite happens – the media just say it doesn add up. And tear it apart.

    Premier Icon rone
    Free Member

    2015 – “The party says every policy pledge in the document is funded and will be paid for without any additional borrowing”

    Ed Milliband.

    And both 2017/2019. Same.

    Premier Icon fazzini
    Full Member

    This thread normally goes to sleep over the weekend allowing us all to put our toys back in our prams 🤣🤣

    Just get out and ride your treddlies – SKS and the rest of them will be waiting for us next week when we really should be working 🤔😁

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    You said all approaches need taxing and spending.

    Sorry, I just meant both are essential and can’t be done away with. Tax (and interest rates) are essential to control inflation and currency value, as well as ensuring money is circulated. No government simply takes tax and then spends the returns.

    In what way did it work?

    It hasn’t worked. I think I said that. At least not since 2008. It has to be made to work, and that will be next to impossible. That is the mountain Labour have to climb, but climb it they must. The biggest battle Labour lost (and there’s plenty of blame to go around here) is in allowing the mess of the credit crunch, and the unfairness of the essential bailout that followed, to stick to them, and to be falsely connected to the essential investment and minor redistribution of the Labour years. Even voters who have long forgotten what happened 14 years ago still “fear” a Labour government [ even while they sit back and watch what this government is doing ]. “It would be worse under Labour” is what you still hear when pointing out examples of economic mismanagement, corruption and poor governance going on right now, with Labour watching on, and even till the recipients of blame for things done long after they were last in office.

    Premier Icon johnx2
    Free Member

    Just get out and ride your treddlies

    Have you seen it out there?

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    I’m injured, and have a cold, and my kid is ill thanks to coronavirus, and I have only enough diesel left for a one way trip to the hospital if need be. I’m going nowhere today! And, yes, it’s so wet I’d probably stay in anyway.

    Burnham is blinding on Any Questions. So on top of his brief as Mayor, and on wider questions. I still share the concerns that Clive Lewis mentions in that podcast up there.

    Premier Icon ctk
    Full Member

    Lewis is brill, give him the keys now- a real grown up.
    Will catch up with AQ later.

    Premier Icon BillMC
    Full Member

    https://leftfootforward.org/2021/10/prof-prem-sikka-keir-starmer-failed-to-offer-policies-at-labour-conference/

    Well worth a squiz at this from a Prof Of Accountancy

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    Well worth a squiz at this from a Prof Of Accountancy

    That appears to just be a summary of the battles of conference. £15 minimum wage and all.

    Will catch up with AQ later.

    Do. I think Lewis, and myself, and others, might have to consider Burnham really isn’t the man he was as an MP. I don’t trust him yet, but his every media appearance has impressed me in recent months. A reappraisal might be needed.

    Lewis is brill, give him the keys now

    I would prefer Lewis as PM to Starmer (or Burnham, or Rayner), but I don’t think he will get close to being party leader, never mind to lead the country, sadly. His acceptance that the UK should be moving to real multi-party democracy, with representation for all in parliament, and that Labour should support that (as called for by its members) smacks of someone who can actually see the path we need to be on.

    Premier Icon fazzini
    Full Member

    Have you seen it out there?

    Wet n windy yup. Bloody marvellous.

    Premier Icon rone
    Free Member

    Conference belter.

    If Starmer can’t put meat on the bones in the next two weeks with new levels of chaos (what we got now -Pandemic, Brexit, Fuel, Energy) then he will never pull ahead.

    The man and his decisions are a political failiure. And it follows centrist thinking should go back to where it belongs – the Libdems. Sinking without trace.

    As an aside the army coming in is clearly indicative of total private sector failure, and the state has to step in, again.

    I wonder if it will be sold as a good thing.

    ‘Course it will. Patriot trumpets ready.

    Premier Icon big_n_daft
    Free Member

    Burnham really isn’t the man he was as an MP. I don’t trust him yet, but his every media appearance has impressed me in recent months. A reappraisal might be needed.

    Forget Burnham he isn’t going to go for it. It’s a pipedream.

    Lewis is brill, give him the keys now- a real grown up.

    He’s a lightweight, never going to last long running for leadership

    I would prefer Lewis as PM to Starmer (or Burnham, or Rayner), but I don’t think he will get close to being party leader, never mind to lead the country, sadly. His acceptance that the UK should be moving to real multi-party democracy, with representation for all in parliament, and that Labour should support that (as called for by its members) smacks of someone who can actually see the path we need to be on.

    You need 326+ to implement that policy, some of those legislating will be writing their own redundancy notice, not going to happen.

    If Starmer can’t put meat on the bones in the next two weeks with new levels of chaos (what we got now -Pandemic, Brexit, Fuel, Energy) then he will never pull ahead.

    Starmer will abide by the convention of not spoiling the other main parties conference. Pre Christmas panic buying will cause more chaos so he has more than two weeks.

    Premier Icon rone
    Free Member

    Starmer will abide by the convention of not spoiling the other main parties conference. Pre Christmas panic buying will cause more chaos so he has more than two weeks.

    Reasonable points.

    But Johnson is about to boost his poll lead again at conference.

    If Starmer can’t maintain a few points out of conference under all of this – I can’t see anything good coming his way.

    As for Lewis being a lightweight – don’t be so sure, he’s got more of a fix on what to do with the Labour party than Starmer will ever have.

    Premier Icon rone
    Free Member

    🤣

    Premier Icon ernielynch
    Free Member

    To be fair rone Starmer only made that committment not to give interviews to the Sun when he was campaigning to win the Labour leadership election, his supporters would argue that lying is fine if the aim is to win an election, it’s a strategy which they strongly share with Boris Johnson.

    Besides I’m sure that Kelvin will come along soon and point out that Starmer didn’t actually give the Sun an interview, he merely approached them with a comment piece which he wrote and which they kindly published for him.

    Edit : I can see why the Sun would be comfortable with publishing Starmer’s unedited opinions in their paper, he simply criticises the Tory government without offering any radical alternative.

    I can also understand why Rupert Murdoch might be comfortable with Starmer as UK PM

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    the Sun is scum

    It might well be true, I think it is anyway, and if you want to ingratiate yourself with Labour supporters, it’s a sentiment you’d be wise to acknowledge. When it comes to getting readers of the Sun to switch their vote to Labour, well, I don’t know. Is the best approach to refuse the chance to connect with them? I’d like to think there is a better way than writing to them directly, in the paper they read, because it can look like consenting to all the hateful content that paper spews out day after day, week after week, year after year. I’d rather another way was found, because voters who read the Sun need to be won over, I just don’t know what other way might be as effective.

    Nothing much has changed since January 2020…

    https://labourlist.org/2020/01/members-left-uncertain-over-starmer-stance-on-the-sun/

    Premier Icon big_n_daft
    Free Member

    I can see why the Sun would be comfortable with publishing Starmer’s unedited opinions in their paper, he simply criticises the Tory government without offering any radical alternative.

    The reverse argument is that publishing the SKS article would undermine SKS within the labour party and hasten his departure

    Premier Icon ernielynch
    Free Member

    My understanding is that Starmer approached the Sun with an offer to provide them with an opinion piece, are you suggesting that the Sun is a willing party to Starmer’s attempt at political suicide?

    Tbh I don’t think Starmer needs any help from Rupert Murdoch when it comes to undermining his own political credibility, he might seem inept in many ways but that’s one thing which he seems perfectly capable of doing.

    Nor do I see any reason why the Sun/Rupert Murdoch would want to see Starmer replaced as Labour leader, as you seem to suggest.

    The UK is currently being led by an attention-seeking clown, despite that Starmer is so incapable of offering a credible alternative that if there was an election tomorrow Labour would almost certainly lose.

    The situation is so dire that one solitary poll a couple of weeks ago which gave a Labour lead of 2% was cause for celebration. Indeed so much so that binners seemed for a while re-energised on this thread.

    It was however short-lived and gloom and despondency has returned. Labour didn’t even benefit from the usually inevitable party conference bounce which all political parties can expect.

    I imagine that Rupert Murdoch is perfectly satisfied with the state of the Labour Party, no need to change anytime – Labour will almost certainly not win the next general election, and even if it did under Starmer a Labour government is certain not to challenge the status quo.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Full Member

    The UK is currently being led by an attention-seeking clown, despite that Starmer is so incapable of offering a credible alternative that if there was an election tomorrow Labour would almost certainly lose.

    But the fact remains that to the many folk who vote Tory, Johnson is wildly popular. They may even think that Starmer would be “good as a PM” but they still would vote in their droves for Johnson because they like him.

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