So those moaning about Univserity fee’s, do you think a Starmer Labour Government would lower the threshold for repayment which hits lower earners hardest like the current Government are proposing?

Yup, another questionable thing Blair is responsible for! The idea sounds
wonderful but it inevitably devalued the concept of a university degree.

With the impact being that a lot of jobs now require a degree where it should not be necessary but because so many people have them then it has become a default requirement causing a vicious cycle.

I was 18 in 1986 and most people only tended to go to University because they had a real desire too. Now it seems that a lot of people go for something to do with no real goal at the end of it (my son, my nephew, my niece, my managers sons etc, etc,.)

She’s pro-austerity because she think it will win her votes.

Great, so she knows that she can spend like crazy, but she feels she has to pretend she can’t to get into power.

So on day one in power she can borrow & spend like crazy. Make everything better. And then by end of the parliament she’ll be a national hero.

In which case you can 100pc get behind her because she knows the secret of spending with no drawbacks even if she can’t admit it until she’s in power to prove it works.

👏🥂🍻👏

What’s your problem with that?

good to be able to agree with Dazh 100% on something.

Reckon I agree with you on pretty much 99% of things anyway despite binners sordid attempts to paint me as a placard waving trot (which couldn’t be further from the truth) 😄.

With the impact being that a lot of jobs now require a degree where it should not be necessary

Which jobs? I assume your assertion is that having people more educated before they take up those jobs isn’t beneficial for the individual, organisation/business, and the UK more generally? Why do you think that? Neither of my parents stayed at school past 13. That was once pretty normal. Having a population that stays in education longer might be beneficial to all, even if there will always be examples of individuals who might have been better off not studying or training past some arbitrary age, and plenty of examples of jobs that people shouldn’t really need the extra time in education to perform well at. Is an educated population a good thing, or should we reserve it for the “elites” (however you measure that)…?

To be fair to Binners, he was supporting Labour while I was self indulgently voting for other candidates in seats that only the Tories or Conservatives could win. And he kept supporting Labour when it moved to the left, and I started voting for them. Despite his jokes, he’s one of the few people here who has consistently supported getting Labour into, and the Tories out of, power, and has stated he’ll stick to that. So he isn’t really part of the problem…

Lol get a room. What you call jokes are insults and are tiresome. He didn’t support Labour when they moved to the left ffs! He wanted Corbyn out.

I don’t want Starmer to lead Labour into the next general election, but I will vote for Labour if he does, and try and presuade others to do the same, especially in this red/blue marginal with a grade A **** of a Tory MP. I was in the same position in 2019 though, Corbyn shouldn’t have still been leader then in my view, but I still voted for Labour, and tried to convince others… as did Binners IIRC.

Us lefties moaning about Starmer lying to get elected is not ok but Binners’ 1000s of posts denigrating people on the left as loonies, sixth formers etc is? You have a blind spot Kelvin.

What’s your problem with that?

If I had any confidence that’s what she’d do then I wouldn’t have a problem with it. As I said yesterday I can swallow Starmer using the battle with the left as a lever to get into power if he then does the things he originally agreed to do in the leadership campaign. However knowing Reeves and Starmer’s history, and listening to the things they say now, I have very little confidence that they’ll do that. I fear they really believe this bankrupt, ambition-free, balancing the books nonsense.

I fear they really believe this bankrupt, ambition-free, balancing the books nonsense.

So maybe you should consider if they might be right, what with them being at least as well educated as you and with the ability to talk first hand to pretty much any economist they choose world wide?

denigrating people on the left as loonies, sixth formers etc

There’s plenty of them, we’ve all met them, some of you sound like them sometimes. Tarring everyone with a similar political view with the same brush is lazy. Is it only Binners that does that? Repetition of slurs and jokey put downs can become rude and antisocial. Is it only Binners that does that?

moaning about Starmer lying to get elected

I remember Miliband campaigning to become leader on a different platform to the one he campaigned on as leader. It was one of the things that put me off voting for Labour with him as leader. Starmer doing the same will damage him and the party at the next election. But here’s the rub… is there any other way? Can you win a Labour leadership contest on the same ticket as you offer to the whole country at a general election? I don’t think you can, and the changes Starmer has made to the leadership election rules don’t really change that.

Who else does it?

Labour this week proposed full workers rights from day one of starting your job, with no distinction between permanent and temporary staff. We’d all be workers, with full rights, with a crack down on what has become normalised in terms of denying rights to workers, especially by huge companies such as Tesco.

Unfortunately we don’t have a Labour government so none of that applies currently

@outofbreath. A news report is all well and good but it proves nothing when every job advert I see round my way for low paid jobs are offering the same low wage as pre pandemic. There is no boom in blue collar wages in Bedfordshire or Buckinghamshire.

The tories biggest success has been convincing the Red Wall constituencies that their labour MP’s have failed them. Not the governing partybwho had all the power.

If Labour fought the other side as hard as they fought each other they would be a force to be reckoned with.

Politically my aim is to remove the Tories from power. I see Starmers Labour as a good way of achieving that.

Is it only Binners that does that?

More false equivalence – it’s becoming a theme.

No one else is as anywhere near as abusive as binners no – bridges maybe comes close sometimes.

Unfortunately we don’t have a Labour government so none of that applies currently

Yes, sorry, that’s no use to you right now. I was using your post to give a clear practical example of how replacing this government with a Labour one would effect our lives. People keep asking for examples, and claiming it would make no difference. It would.

Maybe it raised education levels over all I don’t know. Seemed like lots of colleges got renamed universities though…

Polys were renamed universities in 1992. That Blair’s a tricky one eh?

He didn’t support Labour when they moved to the left ffs! He wanted Corbyn out.

I wanted Corbyn out too but still donated to Labour, to the GE campaigns and did a few minimal bits and bobs, and would have dearly loved to see a labour government, as unlikely as that was.

Sorry but evidence/citation for this statement about one individual company required.

I took on a role as a temp at Tesco, stacking shelves at night. This was during the pandemic, so pretty recent. After 6 weeks there about 12 of us were laid off as our contracts had expired. That same night an advert was on the doors (I saw it on my way out) and on the website advertising for night time temp shelf stackers.

Couple of months later I bumped into one of the staff I’d worked with (he had been permanent with Tesco for many years). He said a second lot of temps had come and gone and been replaced straight away since I’d left.

Tesco shift patterns are designed to give minimum/ no breaks. 6 hours I think? I know someone who works there.

So maybe you should consider if they might be right

Because it doesn’t take a PhD in economics to see that when a govt needs money to spend on things it can magically acquire it. They’ve spent more on covid in 18 months than Corbyn was proposing to spend in 5 years, yet somehow the money spent on covid is affordable, and what Corbyn wanted to do was cloud cuckooland fantasy. So this is evidently not an issue about what we can ‘afford’, it’s an issue around political will and what is necessary.

The reason Reeves and Starmer don’t have the political will to spend money on things like free further education etc is because they either don’t understand how it works (which is entirely possible given Starmer apparently required economics tutorials from his advisors), or because they have a different agenda and don’t want to do this stuff.

He didn’t support Labour when they moved to the left ffs! He wanted Corbyn out.

I’ve hardly made a secret of my dislike for Corbyn, but I voted for the daft old goat twice. I did design work for the CLP at both elections

I live in a marginal constituency where every vote counts. We presently have a Tory MP with majority of just 100, so the idea of not voting labour is just insane as its essentially just another Tory vote

The tories biggest success has been convincing the Red Wall constituencies that their labour MP’s have failed them

Their labour MPs did fail them. They were in power for 13 years and failed to change the system to benefit working people. As soon as they and their short term sticking plasters were gone, everything went back to how it was before, and rapidly got worse. Labour laid the foundations for what happened under the tories, and working people see that very clearly.

I’ve hardly made a secret of my dislike for Corbyn, but I voted for the daft old goat twice.

I seem to remember you being quite positive about him following the 2017 election.

Because it doesn’t take a PhD in economics to see that when a govt needs money to spend on things it can magically acquire it.

…and yet governments never do that in the extreme way you think they should/could. Soo you’re saying there’s a magic way to make everything better and to please all those voters, and nobody does it… Is that not some kind of clue?

They’ve spent more on covid in 18 months than Corbyn was proposing to spend in 5 years, yet somehow the money spent on covid is affordable

It wasn’t affordable. They’ve already had to put tax up 2.5pc which wiped out their poll lead in a one-er. ….and that’s just the start.

We have to service this debt. I read that’s 1pc of GDP for the next 30 years. 1pc less of everything for three decades, and that’s without touching the capital, which, as you will be quick to point out, inflation will hopefully deal with to a large degree.

or because they have a different agenda and don’t want to do this stuff.

What’s that agenda?

Polys were renamed universities in 1992. That Blair’s a tricky one eh?

I associated it with Blair, must be because he was so indistinguishable from the Tories eh 😉

Labour laid the foundations for what happened under the tories, and working people see that very clearly.

You’re excusing the pattern of blaming Labour for what happens when they are out of office. I think this is where I say something about reading more widely, or your MSM bubble, or something equally flippant.

By all means blame the last government for PFI, tution fees etc… and make it clear that you fear and don’t want another Labour government repeating those mistakes again. But don’t give the Conservatives such an easy ride. Brown invested and worked internationally to help deal with the crash, plenty of what came next was because, not despite, people (like me) not voting in another Labour government.

What? Labour supported austerity ffs!

We have to service this debt.

Time to drag out the good old Richard Murphy twitter thread…

We have just had another week when the media has obsessed about what they call the UK’s national debt. There has been wringing of hands. The handcart in which we will all go to hell has been oiled. And none of this is necessary. So this is a thread on what you really need to know

— Richard Murphy (@RichardJMurphy) March 2, 2021

Labour supported austerity ffs!

Yes they did. They always said the boost in investment was short term and constriction would follow. On what scale? At what speed? Would they have targeted the same areas of expenditure, at the same scale? Would they have made the same tax changes? Would they have hidden the cuts in local government spending? Don’t excuse the decision the Conservatives (and the LibDems) made on the previous government. And don’t blame the removal of “sticking plasters” on those that put the help in place for people, blame it on those that chose to remove them. Like closing Sure Start centres… because the rich don’t use or need them.

WGAF Kelvin? 😂

They supported it which made the policy seem like the only way. It gave the Tories credibility.

Same way the Tories policy to get immigration down to the10s of thousands gave the Brexit movement credibility.

& Where were Labour on immigration? Desperately hoping it wouldn’t come up on the doorstep/ AQs etc

How you do things matters. You can support raising taxes. That doesn’t make you complicit when another party aims those tax rises at the lower paid. As a recent example.

Desperately hoping it wouldn’t come up on the doorstep/ AQs etc

Too right. Labour have been in a hole for ages on immigration, because they “know” that workers rights should go beyond borders. They “know” that immigration is not just beneficial to the UK, but essential. Yet huge sections of the public “know” otherwise. That brings me to one of the other reasons that I didn’t vote Labour under Miliband (if I ever meet that man, I will apologise to him profusely)… the “Controls on Immigration” mug and tablet of stone. He was nodding to the people who wanted fewer immigrants, but without actually explicitly proposing it (unlike the Tories who promised it, but knew it was too damaging to actually carry it out). Starmer will have to do something similar for the voters, and it will divide his party. You could argue he already has, by explicitly saying FoM isn’t coming back, just like the previous leader said it had to come to an end (I disagree with them both, but it’s obvious why they took that position in front of English voters especially).

Whataboutery, Labour supported austerity, if they stuck to the figures they proposed they would have been shutting services down.

Time to drag out the good old Richard Murphy twitter thread…

….and no work leaders have ever read that thread. Weird…

Can you quote me the bit where he discusses inflation? And if it’s not there can you explain why it’s not?

But we keep coming back to the fact you’re saying there’s a way everything can get better with no drawback. It’s so well known that you know about it. Yet nobody worldwide does it. That’s patently nonsense. Every government in the world would be doing and gaining more and more popularity.

…and the opposition are now in on the conspiracy, and historically always have been.

Are you serious OOB? Whats QE? What has America just done?

They do it but only for big business and banks

dazh
Full Member
i mean that from his commitment to being able to argue his point without either being made to look like he doesn’t have a clue, or he had absolutely no sense of humour

Jesus wept, are you capable of forming an opinion outside of what people in the media tell you to think? You literally just said young people don’t matter. FFS I can’t think of a more negative, cynical or self-defeating viewpoint. If you don’t give a shit about the young, then you’re an idiot quite frankly.

This is my opinion, i am allowed to have one, after watching numerous PMQs, interviews and statements he never brought confidence on areas that weren’t his favourites, which is a key sign of a politician that cannot fathom how to actual govern, as for the young, of course i care, but what you’ve stated in your response is exactly the reason the far left will never do well in the UK, any counter argument always ends with some angry response or insult.

Labour supported austerity, if they stuck to the figures they proposed they would have been shutting services down.

Yup, all of the parties did in 2010, it wasn’t controversial then. And the Lib dems had an EU referendum in their manifesto! 🤣

Are you serious OOB? Whats QE? What has America just done

That’s just bog standard Keynsian stimulus. And Trump did it on steroids (and at a strange time.)

Nothing new in that.

It’s not a massive leap is it?

It’s not a massive leap is it?

Seemingly yes, or everyone would be doing it, instead of nobody.

Your assuming govt want to do it. Why would they whenQE much better suits their needs?