Your question expresses my thinking, kerley. A SKS Labour Party is currently not “wow-ing” me, but I wouldn’t give anyone else my vote as it feels wasted until we get some kind of PR system (if ever…)

Who: Plaid Cymru
Why: FREEDOM!

NB. I’m in a pretty tight seat so may end up voting Labour.

Question – the Labour voters who can’t vote Labour because of Starmer and his puppet masters, who are you voting for and what do you think will be achieved from your vote?

If you’re genuinely interested, you could rephrase your question to be less loaded.

They need to reform the way they elect the leader

maybe they do. But, folk are worrying about heating prices going up, lack of food on the table and prices of food going up, on-going COVID19 job issues , cost of living increases, loss of benefits and a tax hike in the spring, and I don’t hear Starmer holding Johnson to account on these things.

If you’re genuinely interested, you could rephrase your question to be less loaded.

It is a great example of the disdain for democratic choice though. The classic “well you have no one else to vote for so tough shit”. Missing the fact that approach was the new labour one last time round and plenty of people found other parties that did, at least, pretend to represent them preferable.

I’ll rephrase it

Question – the Labour voters and people who identify as left wing who can’t vote Labour because of Starmer, who are you voting for and what do you think will be achieved from your vote?

, folk are worrying about heating prices going up, lack of food on the table and prices of food going up, on-going COVID19 job issues , cost of living increases, loss of benefits and a tax hike in the spring, and I don’t hear Starmer holding Johnson to account on these things.

Kuensberg was doing his job for him last night on the BBC, though I did wonder if her old pal and “source at No10” Cummings had put her up to it.

Starmers complete failure to be seen to holding the government’s feet to the fire over their failure to manage the impact of Brexit and Covid has been utterly embarrassing. He could have done it without undermining the “will of the people” or “playing politics” with the pandemic.

He’ll never win over the diehard Tory supporters, so what. He’s missing the opportunity to win over the waiverers and disenfranchised he needs to kick the Tories

It is a great example of the disdain for democratic choice though.

It reflects the reality of the way we implement democracy. If your party isn’t on the ballot paper you can’t vote for it. If your party can’t get 326+ seats directly or indirectly you aren’t the government, if you aren’t the government you aren’t legislating, if you aren’t legislating you cannot make significant changes to the way the country is run

The classic “well you have no one else to vote for so tough shit”.

I’m in the “least worst” club most of the time, it means I’ll vote for a rainbow of parties, sometimes it is a FFS moment, sometimes it’s a positive action, sometimes a make a change happen. The sad reality is that my choice is limited to what is on the ballot paper, so yes often there is no-one else to vote for

It reflects the reality of the way we implement democracy.

No it represents a claimed reality. What it actually results in is people chosing not to vote because all the politicians are the same as each other or voting for a change, any change.
I would have thought this belief in the divine right to all left wing votes would have been broken by now.

if you aren’t legislating you cannot make significant changes to the way the country is run

Actually you can by providing a choice and forcing other parties to respond to that. If you simply provide a watered down version of their politics then you dont make them respond in anyway aside from shifting further to the side in order to differentiate.
We can look at the influence UKIP has or even the limited impact of the Green party whose policies have been taken up by the mainstream in order to avoid losing votes there.

In answer to the voting question I’ll be voting Lib Dem because Tim Farron is a very good constituency MP and Labour have zero chance here anyway.

Also, unless you’re a boomer voting is largely pointless, as we’ve previously covered.

Rapidly coming to the conclusion that you’re a right winger playing a part here.

What was the thing about ad hominem attacks again?

It looks like the Labour Party Conference is going to be an absolute gift for Boris and the Tory press.

As a winter of food shortages and people struggling with sky-rocketing fuel bills approaches, and with Covid far from over, they’ll be able to point at the civil war about to break out and say ‘look… look at these mad loony lefties… naval gazing and self-absorbed… banging on about electoral systems and having a scrap with themselves… just imagine if these nutters were in charge?’

An absolutely insane decision to decide to fight that battle now. If it needed to be fought at all. Talk about fiddling while Rome burns

I truly despair of the Labour party. The lot of them. It simply isn’t fit to call an opposition. Boris must be laughing his tits off watching this developing car crash.

Rapidly coming to the conclusion that you’re a right winger playing a part here. Your every post reads like a right winger’s jokey idea of what a petulant left winger could be like, rather then expressing the attitude and language of any genuine left winger I know.

Lol! So many comedians on here! 😀

I truly despair of the Labour party. The lot of them. It simply isn’t fit to call an opposition. Boris must be laughing his tits off watching this developing car crash.

There there. Your clean-shaven messiah is turning out to be an utter failure, isn’t he? Do you feel somewhat embarrassed by backing the wrong horse now? Is the reality of the fact that Armrest really is just a right-wing establishment stooge, starting to finally sink in now?

Bless.

Which horse should he have backed?

And that goes for the other members who voted for him as well… which of the alternative candidates should they have voted for? Starmer never looked the person to take Labour into the next election to me… but I can’t honestly say that any of the others looked like a better choice back then… and maybe still don’t.

So… back around again… assuming Starmer doesn’t take Labour into the next election (I hope he doesn’t)… who should?

It looks like the Labour Party Conference is going to be an absolute gift for Boris and the Tory press.

Yep. Starmer has chosen to pick a fight with his own party rather than focus on the Tories. Genius.

Anyway, I’ll vote Green next time as the party which most closely represents my values.

So… back around again… assuming Starmer doesn’t take Labour into the next election (I hope he doesn’t)… who should?

Richard Burgon. 😀

I would have thought this belief in the divine right to all left wing votes would have been broken by now.

I don’t see a left wing alternative on my ballot paper other than the occasional green party candidate.

Who does the left wing voter put an X in the box for when its the three main parties

We can look at the influence UKIP has or even the limited impact of the Green party whose policies have been taken up by the mainstream in order to avoid losing votes there.

UKIP imploded after the Brexit vote, the Greens have nudged but a lot has come from science and people of other political persuasions

The reality is the neither are legislating for major changes

Is the reality of the fact that Armrest really is just a right-wing establishment stooge, starting to finally sink in now?

As was the case with Corbyn, I’m less bothered by what he is or isn’t, ideology-wise, what I’d like to see is a basic level of competence.

I lived in hope that after 5 years of almost comedic ‘leadership’ we might actually get that.

I find the decision to do this now to be absolutely inexplicable. Its madness

It shows that the labour leadership is utterly detached from reality. After the absence of any firm policies, I expected conference to be a platform for some sort of manifesto. Instead he’s decided to have an utterly pointless battle with his own party

Tory Central Office must be rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of the Labour conference.

The next election is already in the bag

It shows that the labour leadership is utterly detached from reality

Are you going to stop blaming Corbyn, ‘Lefties’, ‘tin-foil-helmeted nutters’, etc now then? Or is it all still Karl Marx’s fault?

They’re all as bad as each other. Nobody comes out of this well. The self-indulgence is absolutely beyond belief

They’re all as bad as each other

“There are good people on both sides”

So is this finally an admission that Starmer is useless then? Go on; you can say it…

Question – the Labour voters and people who identify as left wing who can’t vote Labour because of Starmer, who are you voting for and what do you think will be achieved from your vote?

How about the Armresters on here start answering some of the many questions put to them, first? So far, that hasn’t happened.

I’m less bothered by what he is or isn’t, ideology-wise, what I’d like to see is a basic level of competence.

So if you’re not actually bothered by actual ideology, then Boris seems to be pretty competent at holding office and being unencumbered by any form of effective opposition right now, and looks set to continue tory rule for some time to come. If ‘winning’ is all you care about, why not just vote tory? That way, you can be on the ‘winning’ team’, and get to gloat about those losers in other teams…

Question – the Labour voters and people who identify as left wing who can’t vote Labour because of Starmer, who are you voting for and what do you think will be achieved from your vote?

Whoever will beat the tories.

In my case being in Scotland labour are a busted flush and have no chance of any power and are still behaving awfully making deals with the tories to keep the SNP out in many places. How on earth they can do this and still pretend to be the labour party astonishes me when there is barely a fag paper between the SNP and Labour on policy (this is in local councils where the constitutional question is irrelevant

I will look at the polling for my constituency and of course it matters which election but probable green unless it looks like the tories might take the seat ( highly unlikely)

My SNP MP is an really nasty liar, My MSP is also SNP but a good bloke. Greens could come second in the seat – its now really a 4 way marginal ( SNP. labour, tory. green)

If I was in an english constituency I would be voting labour

If ‘winning’ is all you care about, why not just vote tory?

Because I despise them with every fibre of my being and desperately want to see a labour government

Would you believe I was actually at a meeting last night of my CLP to select a candidate for next years local elections. I watched three thoroughly decent people, who give up their time to try and make peoples lives better, list what they intend to do to help the local community

Then you look at whats going on in the Parliamentary party and think WTF has this got to do with the real people that the Labour party are actually meant to represent? And what on earth are they doing to help the people I saw last night? What the hell is it they’re actually playing at?

Its absolutely tragic!

I truly despair. We’re looking at permanent Tory government

How about the Armresters on here start answering some of the many questions put to them, first? So far, that hasn’t happened.

Again, I don’t think they are any. I don’t know of anyone who routinely posts on this thread who thinks he’s doing a decent job.

Tory Central Office must be rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of the Labour conference.

They are no doubt involved with the puppet masters controlling Starmer which explains his actions. Makes you think eh…

How about the Armresters on here start answering some of the many questions put to them, first? So far, that hasn’t happened.

As there are no Starmer supporters on this thread how about answering the question I asked about who are you going to vote for to get your left wing party?

As there are no Starmer supporters on this thread

But where have they all gone???

Because I despise them with every fibre of my being and desperately want to see a labour government

But what do you mean by a ‘Labour government’? A government which holds Socialist principles at it’s core, which exists to represent working people in parliament, or the Blairite right-wing shell of self-interested neoliberals who will happily hand power to corporate interests, in exchange for enormous personal wealth?

how about answering the question I asked about who are you going to vote for to get your left wing party?

Richard Burgon. Next question…

Who does the left wing voter put an X in the box for when its the three main parties

It depends on if any of them are left wing doesnt it? If none are particularly then just possibly none and go for alternate forms of political engagement.
Its the problem with the idea of dragging Labour rightwards to appeal to tory voters. Why should someone vote for a party which no longer represents them?

UKIP imploded after the Brexit vote,

Yes after they succeeded in the job at hand. So major impact on legislation.
Likewise with the Greens actually making it visible you get some action in order to capture votes which would go to them.

But where have they all gone???

I don’t think you’re asking honestly. But in the spirit of the thread, I think are/were folk on here, who either thought it could work, or actively voted for him as party leader on the strength of 1.Same policies, 2. promised unification. 3 perhaps more competence. I think all of those folk have been disappointed and most, if not all have said so

Richard Burgon. Next question…

Will the Tony Benn Memorial University ever be built?

Just going to remind everyone of this post from well over a year ago:

I’m just hoping the rumours are true (IIRC it was in the Guardian) that the first thing Kier Starmer is going to do is have a night of the long knives to clear out every last one of the utterly useless Corbynites, both on the front bench and behind the scenes, and actually appoint some people who are capable of finding their own arses using both hands.

I’m also hoping that involves firing Richard Burgon into the sun.

There needs to be a Kinnock/Militant style purge to even think dragging the labour party back from its Corbynite political irrelevence, where its presently languishing in its own delusional ‘we won the argument’ bullshit

Worked out really really well, that plan by Starmer, didn’t it?

Will the Tony Benn Memorial University ever be built?

Blair will have taken the money to build a monument to himself, instead. Oh, he did; it’s called the Tory Party.

Bless the Bedwetters, for they knoweth not even their own delusion…

Richard Burgon. Next question…

When did you move to Leeds?

Yes after they succeeded in the job at hand. So major impact on legislation.

Except the legislation was written by others and many in UKIP thought it a sell out. They may have got the “not this” vote, what they didn’t do is design what was next.

The greens are good at the “we can’t continue like this” PR but their policies are a turn off for many and they have the usual left wing kryptonite issue scything though their leadership

Bless the Bedwetters

FFS.

Then you look at whats going on in the Parliamentary party and think WTF has this got to do with the real people that the Labour party are actually meant to represent?

FFS how long have I been saying this? And every time your response was tinfoil helmets and sixth formers etc and came down on the side of the people you now say are out of touch.

Anyway, welcome to the club. The problem with the labour is not its members and activists. The problem is the majority of its MPs who think their own interests and views are more important than the members and the working people who they’re supposed to represent.

The problem with the labour is not its members and activists. The problem is the majority of its MPs who think their own interests and views are more important than the members and the working people who they’re supposed to represent.

Don’t they represent the entire constituency as well?

It’s a nuance really, the system is always going to be imperfect no labour MP can be all things to all people or even all labour party members. Some MPs will be making the most of personal opportunities, most don’t.

I’d recommend Isabel Hardman’s book “Why we get the wrong politicians”, you might not agree with it all but there are some interesting observations

I’ve no problem with a system that weighs MP votes more heavily in leadership contests. Who the leader is makes more of a difference to them than it does me. and each of those MPs is representing 60,000 folk, their opinion should count for more That’s fine.

It’s just not the most pressing thing that they can do with their time, is all.

Raynor vs Raab in the house right now, a good listen for anyone who thinks it doesn’t matter which party is put in position by voters to set government policy.