Here we go folks, research by the right wing of the Labour party shows that Labour need to appeal more to Tory voters. Who’d have thunk it?

Not really rocket surgery is it?

It specifically says ‘soft’ Tory voters. Who did you expect them to have to target to be in with a chance of winning a majority in our two-party FPTP electoral system?

Neo-nazi’s, Russian ex-pats? disaffected Scottish nationalists? Green Party members who’ve just decided they actually fancy eating steak and buying a Range Rover?

There are plenty of people who normally vote Tory who are absolutely appalled at Johnson’s Nationalist Populist Blue-KIP, but were never going to vote for a Labour Party led by Corbyn.

The Lib Dem’s just picked up a lot of their votes at the last by-election

Energy market is looking good…

Let’s keep banging them neoliberal policies out there.

Will Starmzy allude to any state ownership of the energy supply sector. Be a great opportunity wouldn’t it?

But no he won’t, as above in Binners’ drunken rants – he needs to appeal to Tory sensibility of supporting market economics. (A big fat dead end.)

It’s a double fail: he doesn’t draw the Tory votes in and he supports all the trappings of the market.

Lose / Lose.

There are plenty of people who normally vote Tory who are absolutely appalled at Johnson’s Nationalist Populist Blue-KIP, but were never going to vote for a Labour Party led by Corbyn.

And yet there are plenty of people that appear to keep supporting Tory that don’t want Starmer despite his Tory supporting coalition.

The Lib Dem’s just picked up a lot of their votes at the last by-election

The Lib Dems currently appear to be doing a better job of criticising the government than Labour.

So you think British politics needs one hard right party, and two centrist parties, and no left wing party at all?

If so many people want centrist politics why aren’t the lib dems more popular?

So you think British politics needs one hard right party, and two centrist parties, and no left wing party at all?

If so many people want centrist politics why aren’t the lib dems more popular?

2nd question first: historically they’ve not been that unpopular in terms of vote share, just seats won and that’s despite being er lib dems. A full on lefty socialist party, that I’d vote for in a PR system, could probably perform similarly once its had chance to establish itself. But we don’t have PR. To win in FPTP a party has to include a broad spectrum, and have a strong constituency base able to mobilise voters. Enough of an answer?

Energy market is looking good…

Just when labour’s policy of bringing energy under common ownership is being proved right, Starmer uses it to stoke more infighting and have an argument with one of his senior shadow cabinet members. His incompetence knows no limits.

If Starmer’s advisers had listened to Ed Miliband last week instead of brief against him to the Sunday papers they might have been ahead of the curve as the govt discusses this week the nationalisation of energy firms…

Instead it's just Labour internal fighting. pic.twitter.com/11ACDoWHjt

— James Mills (@JamesMills1984) September 20, 2021

The Lib Dems currently appear to be doing a better job of criticising the government than Labour.

Tory MPs are doing a better job of criticising the government than labour!

Universal Credit inventor Iain Duncan Smith has tabled amendment to keep £20 pw UC uplift – with Damian Green co-signatory. So both wings of Tory ideological divide

And WITH Stephen Timms so almost certain to have Labour support

This will be a key vote – gvt want to scrap https://t.co/6ogvkfwgje

— Sam Coates Sky (@SamCoatesSky) September 20, 2021

Just when labour’s policy of bringing energy under common ownership is being proved right

Milliband was passionate in his assertion about public ownership last week. Is that not policy then?

As it stands, it looks like the government is about to underwrite the energy firms (with taxpayers money) but not nationalise them. Truly the worst of both worlds.

Oh, and you know how Starmer is the darling of remainer FBPE types? Well it would now appear he had a major role, or was perhaps singularly responsible for crashing a deal that would have provided a soft brexit and prevented Boris from ousting May.

https://coloneldespard.wordpress.com/2021/09/19/starmer-sabotaged-soft-brexit-talks-to-aid-his-leadership-ambitions%ef%bf%bc/

perhaps singularly responsible for crashing a deal t

“perhaps” doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. From your link:

Gibb told Ashcroft: “there were briefings to the BBC’s Today programme saying that the cross-party talks are going nowhere. I’d get a call from the BBC saying, ‘I believe the talks are on the verge of collapse.’ ‘Well, who have you spoken to?’, I’d say. ‘Can’t say. It’s official sources’. He is convinced the negative briefings came from Starmer or his team, and that the mixed messages highlighted conflicting attitudes within the Labour delegation

…so I guess that settles it. Brexit is Starmer’s fault based on a blog report of a book written by someone who was told that someone in the bbc said someone had said to someone else said that startmer or someone in his team said… Really? Really really?

Are you suggesting that ‘Colonel Despard’s Radical Comment’ isn’t the go-to destination for accurate and impartial ‘news’?

Or relying Michael Ashcroft the former deputy leader of the Conservative party writing an entirely truthful, unbiased and well researched biography of Kier Starmer.

Are you suggesting that ‘Colonel Despard’s Radical Comment’ isn’t the go-to destination for accurate and impartial ‘news’?

No I’m suggesting that everything that has happened in the past four years is easily understandable within the context of the right wing of the labour party using extreme tactics which are not in the interests of the party or the working people it represents, in order to win a factional battle against the membership. This account supports that, past events support that, and everything they’re now doing from purging members and intimidating MPs supports that.

The labour right are destroying any hope of deposing Johnson and the tory party from power in favour of winning a factional war against their own membership. FFS Iain Duncan Smith is currently providing more opposition to the UC cut than Starmer is, what more do you need to know?

Contact! Wait out.

Jarvis is starting manoeuvres

https://order-order.com/2021/09/20/dan-jarvis-to-stand-down-as-south-yorkshire-mayor/

I imagine he’ll be very active at conference

I see the usual gang are still here trying to keep the dream of a socialist utopia alive, fair enough, if you had:

that I’d vote for in a PR system

it would work, but in reality none of the main parties and their respective left/right wings want PR because it actually means sharing power with others. So:

To win in FPTP a party has to include a broad spectrum, and have a strong constituency base able to mobilise voters. Enough of an answer?

You are stuck with this, having to compromise in other ways to win. That’s the reality, I’m not sorry if it rather messes up peoples fantasies.

You are stuck with this, having to compromise in other ways to win. That’s the reality, I’m not sorry if it rather messes up peoples fantasies.

Yes, some of us get that while others just call us doom mongers for living in the reality of Britain (the voters and the voting system).

it would work, but in reality none of the main parties and their respective left/right wings want PR because it actually means sharing power with other

Aside from this isnt obviously true. For Labour there was a strong group for PR prior to 97 and it was in the manifesto. Sadly Straw and a few others managed to convince Blair not to go for it although the pro-pr group did succeed in all the other election types.
Given the previous outcome I am not sure Straw ideological successors would succeed this time round.
The only ones really opposed to it are those on the hard right who see it as the only real way of keeping power.

I see the usual gang are still here trying to keep the dream of a socialist utopia alive

For now we’d be happy with a Labour Party that’s noticeably to the left of the Conservatives or the Liberal Democrats

The only ones really opposed to it are those on the hard right who see it as the only real way of keeping power.

Wrong.

For now we’d be happy with a Labour Party that’s noticeably to the left of the Conservatives or the Liberal Democrats

I’d like that as well, but elections aren’t going to be won that way at the moment.

I was wondering about Jarvis… saw him on the news the other evening and thought… “He’s been quiet”. Is there an obvious seat for him to try and win before the next election? Or is he, like most contenders, looking at a post general election loss stab at the big job? Labour really should replace Starmer before then, but we know it’s unlikely. Labour is not the flexible tactical beast that the Tory party is.

Oh, and Clive Lewis is right about PR… why we need it and how we get it.

But we’re going the other way. Johnson is managing to undo sensible voting systems for English mayoral elections and installing FPTP for all English local elections. Without any need to consult or hold a referendum. Just BAM… the election system has changed in a way that benefits his party unfairly and returns winning candidates opposed by the majority of their constituents. Worse representation.

I was wondering about Jarvis… saw him on the news the other evening and thought… “He’s been quiet”. Is there an obvious seat for him to try and win before the next election?

He’s already a MP

He’s been doubling up as a mayor

I’d like that as well, but elections aren’t going to be won that way at the moment.

So Labour should occupy the same ground as the Tories? What on earth would be the point of asking people to switch from coke to Pepsi?

So Labour should occupy the same ground as the Tories? What on earth would be the point of asking people to switch from coke to Pepsi?

This is pretty obvious to me too. Also the contradiction of despising the Tories but wanting using them as a template for voting success. Beggars belief.

How do you push against the damage they’ve done without a vision that perhaps treads in a different direction?

Energy…

Starmer Pledge No.5

“Common ownership
Public services should be in public hands, not making profits for shareholders. Support common ownership of rail, mail, energy and water; end outsourcing in our NHS, local government and justice system”

NOW WOULD BE A GOOD TIME.

He’s been doubling up as a mayor

That’s a bit cheeky.

So Labour should occupy the same ground as the Tories? What on earth would be the point of asking people to switch from coke to Pepsi?

I would argue it’s where you get elected but the direction of travel is different afterwards. To legislate you need 326+, anything else is tinkering at the edges.

Public services should be in public hands, not making profits for shareholders. Support common ownership of rail, mail, energy and water;

To do so straight away would be bonkers, you would be paying top dollar to buy out the shareholders. The way to do it is to force them to meet proper asset standards, meet environmental legislation, and to expose mismanagement where it exists. Then nationalise piecemeal as the shareholders ask to surrender their appointments for free.

end outsourcing in our NHS,

Nationalising GPs and dentists?

local government

Small tinker with the rules does that, a lot of LAs have brought services back in house

and justice system”

Just needs a load of cash to modernise properly

NOW WOULD BE A GOOD TIME.

To be fair he may be waiting for conference

Nationalising GPs and dentists?

Be a damn good idea. One that should have been done decades ago.

Left policies are popular but the RW media will monster anyone who is seen as a threat.

Looks like the Labour chatter is that the Leadership may be looking to push through conference a change to revert to electoral colleges rather than one member one vote

To be fair he may be waiting for conference

No excuse. Good media timing is not just conference.

Why can’t he do it now when it’s in the news and attack the Tories?

It’s a peldge remember.

Why can’t he do it now when it’s in the news and attack the Tories?

No idea,

some will probably think it’s all an establishment plot to keep labour out of office with Starmer as the blairite advised stooge working on his next career rather than leading labour

<blockquoteSo Labour should occupy the same ground as the Tories? What on earth would be the point of asking people to switch from coke to Pepsi?

This is pretty obvious to me too.

Blimey. Whereas I’d assume it was meant as a joke/troll. Can you really not tell the difference between Labour and our current government?

There’s a few on this thread, who simply don’t want to see Labour in power and so are useful idiots for the Tories. (I mean not that useful obviously given it’s a politics thread on stw.)

So Labour should occupy the same ground as the Tories? What on earth would be the point of asking people to switch from coke to Pepsi?

This is pretty obvious to me too. Also the contradiction of despising the Tories but wanting using them as a template for voting success. Beggars belief.

Tried it your way with Milliband and Corbyn…look at the results.

So, If you can demonstrate how Labour are going to beat the voting system to win in another way, rather than courting ‘soft tories’, I’m listening.

So, If you can demonstrate how Labour are going to beat the voting system to win in another way, rather than courting ‘soft tories’, I’m listening.

Corbyn substantially improved Labour’s position in 2017, despite his baggage, personal unpopularity and limited leadership skills. My hope was that Starmer would combine those evidently popular policies with more professional leadership. I’ve been sorely disappointed.

Chasing the Tories ever further to the right is an electoral dead end because people will just vote for the real thing.

Blimey. Whereas I’d assume it was meant as a joke/troll. Can you really not tell the difference between Labour and our current government?

I’m sure you know the trouble with assumptions.

Corbyn substantially improved Labour’s position in 2017

He lost

Twice. The second time, catastrophically

Thats the only metric that matters

Anyway… with whats happened in this country over the last few years, 2017 is another planet. You carry on fighting the war before the war before last if you like. I’d rather the labour party didn’t

I see the usual gang are still here trying to keep the dream of a socialist utopia alive

What does this mean? Can you explain what you think it means? It would be helpful if we understood what we’re meant to think. 😀

There’s a few on this thread, who simply don’t want to see Labour in power and so are useful idiots for the Tories. (I mean not that useful obviously given it’s a politics thread on stw.)

Well, some of us keep trying to tell the Armresters that becoming the Tory Party Mk2 isn’t a very good idea, as it’ll lose you both the votes of the ‘Lefties’, and those who’d vote for the ‘real’ tory party anyway, but they don’t seem to want to actually listen to anything other than their own rhetoric…

So, If you can demonstrate how Labour are going to beat the voting system to win in another way, rather than courting ‘soft tories’, I’m listening.

At the end of the day the labour party needs votes from some of the people who voted conservative last time, you know, the facist, racist, xenophobic bigots etc *

If someone can demonstrate the electoral maths that gets labour to 326+ without them I’d be excited to see it.

* Copyright of the left

There’s a few on this thread, who simply don’t want to see Labour in power

Some of us want labour in power so that they can change the political and economic system to work in the interests of working people rather than a tiny few rich people, whereas others (I think we know who) just want labour in power so that they can feel warm and rosy about ‘their’ side winning like after a football match.

If labour are not going to change anything, then there’s really no point them being in power. It’s that simple.

You carry on fighting the war before the war before last if you like.

Says the man who thinks 1997 new labour politics is the way to beat the tories. 😄

He lost

Twice. The second time, catastrophically

Thats the only metric that matters

Anyway… with whats happened in this country over the last few years, 2017 is another planet. You carry on fighting the war before the war before last if you like. I’d rather the labour party didn’t

I’m aware of the results, branes. The point, for the hard of thinking, is that he put them in a far better position in 2017, so it’s worth looking at why and seeing if it can be built on.
Alternatively, if you think 2017 is too long ago we can on the same grounds safely dispense with the crap about reinventing Blairism.

What do you propose instead?