Really? Don’t look at polling on the death penalty then…

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-the-death-penalty-be-reintroduced-for-the-murder-of-a-child

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-the-death-penalty-be-reintroduced-for-terrorist-murder-acts

I am truly amazed that support for the death penalty in terrorism and child murder cases is so low, the country has gone soft!

And opposition to the death penalty in all murder cases is opposed by a very large margin :

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-the-death-penalty-be-reintroduced-in-all-cases-of-murder

Only a third of people support its reintroduction in all murder cases??Wow, I had no idea that public opinion on the issue had progressed so much.

That’s how you would reintroduce the death penalty, if we had direct democracy here. Propose it for the most heinous emotive crimes. It would be introduced then, as Binners pointed out. It’s not just the regulars in the pub you’re obsessing about that would vote for it, half the country voters already would… and after a period of well directed campaigning, you’d get a fair few more to. 52% on the day of the vote… easily.

It’ll be interesting to see if when Boris cancels his self-proclaimed ‘Freedom Day’ (FFS?!) being cancelled by at least a month the population are ready to apportion it to government incompetence yet?

Do you even think he’ll do a press conference? He usually sends a minion like Little Matty when theres bad news to be had

Sir Keir Starmer has told LBC Freedom Day will be delayed because of the Government's "pathetic" border policies.#CallKeir | @Keir_Starmer | @NickFerrariLBChttps://t.co/jdACKAO5FF

— LBC (@LBC) June 14, 2021

Even if they do, they’ll still support Johnson and back him. They don’t mind incompetence, as long as it’s his easy going positive messaging amiable “on their side” incompetence. Any negative effects on their lives will be met with… “imagine how much worse it would be if Labour were in government… that Starmer wants us to close the schools and survive on a diet of quinoa”.

Do you even think he’ll do a press conference? He usually sends a minion like Little Matty when theres bad news to be had

He is doing the press conference at 6pm but sending Matty to the commons to explain it there later.

Support from the Muslim community falling off a cliff.

Maybe there is actually a cost to full-on support of Israel.

That’s how you would reintroduce the death penalty, if we had direct democracy here. Propose it for the most heinous emotive crimes. It would be introduced then, as Binners pointed out.

Actually in my experience when you engage in debate with people they generally become much more liberal and lefty than you might imagine.

So binners should go back to the Rose and Crown and use his eloquent skills in political debate (failing that draw pictures for them)

The death penalty is a good example of this. Often the “string em up” comments are a knee-jerk reaction and when people give the topic more thought they generally take a more sensible stance.

I assume that the very low level of support for the reintroduction of the death penalty these days is due to many years of people hearing the arguments against it.

I don’t support direct democracy btw.

Actually in my experience when you engage in debate with people they generally become much more liberal and lefty than you might imagine.

Then how do you explain Brexit, in all it’s ‘send them back’ glory?

More feebleness on LBC:

Ernie… you’re mixing up what people will say to you during a reasoned conversation, and how they would vote given a chance. Don’t worry, you’re in good company there, we all do it. It’s one of the reasons voting patterns often seem so far from daily lived experiences.

DrJ… how do you want Starmer to answer questions like that on Brexit? In a way that means you and I can agree with him (I find it hard not just to say “truthfully”) or in a way that tries to avoid being continually seen as “on the side of the EU” rather than “standing up for Britain”?

Then how do you explain Brexit, in all it’s ‘send them back’ glory?

It’s interesting that you should ask that because of course brexit is an issue that can’t be discussed on stw. Any attempt to do so is met with an avalanche of knee-jerk reactions….“brexit supporters are all racist, stupid, uneducated, right wing” And that’s just the polite comment, if you want more hate-filled rhetoric go over to the brexit thread. Which btw I find fascinating.

Actually in my experience when you engage in debate with people they generally become much more liberal and lefty than you might imagine.

Don’t engage with anyone in the New Forest as I feel you may be disappointed.

“brexit supporters are all racist, stupid, uneducated, right wing”

Who said that?

DrJ… how do you want Starmer to answer questions like that on Brexit?

I’d have hoped he was a crafty enough politician to not get sucked into a question about fixing Johnson’s mess. He was doing fine for a while, and then he started wittering on about how the EU has to compromise. It just makes him look like he has no principles.

If anyone needed any confirmation of the lack of energy or ideas at the top of the labour party, look no further. I’m sure the tories will be shitting themselves.

📺 Tune in at 9.30am to watch @NickTorfaen make a speech detailing how the delay to the roadmap easing is because of the Government's lax Covid border restrictions. https://t.co/6af6Dlbgou

— The Labour Party (@UKLabour) June 15, 2021

The Labour party have to try hard to get this extension to stick to the government (if they don’t, you can be sure the voters will be blaming Labour for it). Teflon coated Johnson and Sunak seem to have a gift for causing problems and passing the blame for the measures they cause to be introduced onto Labour. Remember that Starmer pub mess in Bath, where he was the target taking the flak for government introduced measures lasting far too long because of government decisions? That’ll keep happening if Labour don’t actively try and stick the blame where it is due.

The Labour party have to try hard

Do you define ‘try hard’ as sending Nick Thomas-who-the-hell-is-he out to do an anonymous speech at 9.30am which no one will watch or report?

No, but I’ve heard Starmer and other Labour MPs on several radio stations in the last 24 hours making the same point. I think they have little chance of success, to be honest. Good luck to them.

That’ll keep happening if Labour don’t actively try and stick the blame where it is due.

That ship sailed months ago.

Yeah, I think they have next to no chance of getting any blame to stick to Johnson or his team (apart from the sacrificial Hancock, perhaps). Having truth on your side is no help these days.

Delta Farce: How Boris Johnson's incompetent handling of the new variant extended lockdown pic.twitter.com/BrdS9K4Sai

— Led By Donkeys (@ByDonkeys) June 15, 2021

If you keep saying the same thing on a public forum, then it would seem fairly obvious that you are trying to convince others of your point of view.

So, what exactly are you doing, returning to this then? Trying to prove something?

As for the rest of it, you are presenting your opinion as fact. It isn’t.

It is, and I’ve already explained why, several times now, with evidence. You’ve either not seen it, or deliberately ignored it. Either way, the facts are there. I have challenged anyone to prove otherwise, and unsurprisingly, no one has. I wonder why? Oh; that’s right; because it was only ever imagined by yourself and others.

In my opinion, you are wrong for the reasons already set out, so it’s a pity that you continue to be so “bone-headed”, as you put it.

You’ve actually unwittingly shown just how such slurs and insinuations can be weaponised against those with differing points of view. You’ve got caught up in the false narrative, as peddled by those with an agenda against the left, and fallen into the trap of needing to appear righteous. Except that that righteousness is false; what you’re actually doing, is perpetuating the very division that those who wish to defame the left, and ultimately to undermine democracy, wish to see happening. Cancel culture, writ large. But the damage caused by this is tremendous; as we’ve seen with the Brexit debate, such divisions sow hate and create such a toxic environment, that we all lose sight of what’s really happening. And whilst Labour destroys itself from within, so the tories just gain more power. So yes; focussing on how the elite of the party is courting the interests of the wealthy, rather than listening to the electorate, is definitely something that Starmer etc want to stamp down on. Trouble is, the genie is out of the bottle now.

Morning Comrade.

Hows the revolution progressing?

Well, that’s a fiver won. Easy money. Thanks Binners. 😀

You’ve actually unwittingly shown just how such slurs and insinuations can be weaponised against those with differing points of view. You’ve got caught up in the false narrative, as peddled by those with an agenda against the left, and fallen into the trap of needing to appear righteous.

I haven’t fallen for anything. I read the same words you did, and reached a different conclusion. How ever much you choose to carry on bleating about how beastly everyone is being, this is about interpretation and not about fact. My interpretation is that you’re using an opportunity to play the victim as a way of deflecting from your use of an anti-semitic trope.

What makes a 50 year old public school Footlights-derived sketch comedy which sneared at all the usual targets (gays, socialists, the working class) any sort of contribution to discussion?

this is about interpretation and not about fact.

No; it is actually about fact. The fact that you’re wrong, end of. It really is that simple.

My interpretation is..

Wrong. I’ve tried to explain this, but you fail to understand/don’t want to listen at all. Thus exemplifying the problems we face in our democracy today. You really WANT me to be an anti-Semite, but as I’ve stated earlier, doing so without facts, is just making you and others look really really foolish. As you cannot prove what you claim, I suggest you just go away now. Because you’re only making yourself look more stupid. Thanks.

No; it is actually about fact. The fact that you’re wrong, end of. It really is that simple.

It’s a pity that you’re so invested in your narrative that you continue to peddle this falsehood.

Wrong. I’ve tried to explain this, but you fail to understand/don’t want to listen at all. Thus exemplifying the problems we face in our democracy today. You really WANT me to be an anti-Semite, but as I’ve stated earlier, doing so without facts, is just making you and others look really really foolish. As you cannot prove what you claim, I suggest you just go away now. Because you’re only making yourself look more stupid. Thanks.

I’ve read what you said and considered it. It’s a pity you haven’t extended me the same courtesy, as I’ve previously said that I don’t believe you are an anti-semite. So your rather silly assertion that I want you to be one is, I suggest, making you look stupid rather than me.

Now, I’m not going anywhere, but it would be beneficial for you to stop and have a think, if you’re capable.

So anyway, this Keir Starmer geezer, he’s not very good, is he?

He’s looking more and more irrelevant and ineffective. So… considering the next leader could face the exact same climate when they take over… who should it be, and when should it happen? Wait ’till the pandemic is less of a key issue, and we’re further from the last election… or press ahead and change the leader (and team) ASAP? I still think a year out from the next election is the right time, but freely admit that could easily be scuppered by a change of election year by the government, and that Labour aren’t capable of acting quickly at the right time anyway when it comes to a change of Leadership.

Never heard of him.

So anyway, this Keir Starmer geezer, he’s not very good, is he?

Seems that way. I think the plan of not attacking the govt while in the midst of a pandemic while understandable I think in hindsight has been an tactical error, and now that ship has now largely sailed.

FWIW, I don’t look forward to a leadership battle (and I don’t think Labour should tolerate one) but Starmer needs a re-boot fo’shure

Until enough people get fed up with Johnson it doesn’t matter who the Labour leader is or what they do.
You would have thought with the way him and his party have handled everything over the last year that people would be going off them but seems to be the opposite.
You will not beat them by opposing what they are doing if people like what they are doing which is the biggest challenge any opposition leader will have.

he’s not very good, is he?

The biggest surprise is that the managerial competence we all assumed he’d have seems to be entirely absent. Clearly running the CPS, filled with professional and obedient staff is no preparation for running a party of largely self-interested and ruthlessly ambitious MPs, and a membership of consisting mostly of young idealists with dreams of a radically different world to what we have now.

Corbyn was a leader for the membership, Starmer a leader for the PLP (not even that TBH, more a leader for a blairite cabal). Until labour find someone who can do both they’re f*****. If the schism between the PLP and the members can’t be resolved, then labour should split or disband. Let the MPs go and do a SDP/Change UK, and let the membership and wider movement start afresh with new candidates who are part of their communities.

People might get more fed up with Johnson if they were enlightened on what’s actually been going on by an effective Opposition. In the absence of that, they can believe absolutely anything, and they do.

So anyway, this Keir Starmer geezer, he’s not very good, is he?

He’ll look like Keir Hardie when Richard Burgon is leader

Oi! Don’t be dissing Rich. I’m personally looking forward to attending some lectures at the Tony Benn Memorial University of Socialist teachings

People might get more fed up with Johnson if they were enlightened on what’s actually been going on by an effective Opposition

It is there to see for those that are interested. The problem is most people are not interested.

Corbyn was a leader for the membership, Starmer a leader for the PLP

I think in name only for both of them. My criticism of Corbyn has always been his obvious lack of leadership skills. Now, he’s fine orator, and by all accounts is a decent MP, and I have no doubt that he’s a decent human being. None of those things made up for the fact that he was completely at sea when exposed at the pointy end of politics. Starmer, it would appear, has the same problems, I’ve no doubt I’d agree with him about a good many things. But he’s also not demonstrated up to this point that he’s got what it takes to be a leader, apart from skewering Johnson at the dispatch box on disappointingly few occasions

I think the crucial difference is that I think more folk can see themselves voting for Starmer than they can for Corbyn. But Starmer needs to be much much better at being that person. He’s currently failing.

then labour should split or disband

I think that would disastrous.

The problem is most people are not interested.

How do you get them interested? Still think Starmer is too dull to engage those who aren’t already engaged. But I also don’t have the answer (or candidate) to suggest to improve Labour’s fortunes right now. There are alternative leaders who could better energise “the base”, but can they grow electoral support past where it was in 2017? I don’t know who could do that right now.

The people need a vision.

A number of people could sell that vision, but overall they need to be shown a clear / brighter / better alternative