I did try, but well, you just couldn’t let it lie, could you?

YOU keep bringing it up. And not just in this thread. Just leave me alone! You managed to shoehorn it into a Pride thread. I mean… what the…!?!

Funny isn’t it that so little has happened this week in the world of Starmer that we’ve resorted to discussing discussions we had only a couple of weeks ago. It pretty much says all we need to know about his leadership. Anyone for another round of Rose and Crown-gate? 😄

Well, someone imagined that I did, yet when it was clarified that I didn’t, persisted with the insinuations. So I’ll just see that as an ‘accusation’, because that’s what it is.

Your repeated attempts at playing the victim aren’t very convincing.

Anyone for another round of Rose and Crown-gate?

Don’t go there, man. It’s like ‘Nam’ on that bowling green

YOU keep bringing it up. And not just in this thread. Just leave me alone! You managed to shoehorn it into a Pride thread. I mean… what the…!?!

YOU keep persisting with the insinuation. All you have to do, is accept your mistake, apologise to me, and we can all move on. Very simple. And you’d gain more respect in the process. What’s not to like?

Your repeated attempts at playing the victim aren’t very convincing.

I’m not a victim. If people are too bone-headed to admit they were wrong, then what can I do? And please explain why I need to ‘convince’ you of anything? If you can’t see the facts in front of you, again, what can I do? Maybe it’s easier to hide inside an imagined scenario, than admit the truth.

I had requested that the moderators of this forum deal with posts I found personally offensive. As no action seems to have been taken, I’ll deal with it on here. I have every right to answer false accusations and insinuations against me. More than happy to discuss the nuances involved in how people can have differing perceptions of things, but so far, no-one has done so. So I’ll just consider this the usual ‘smear those you disagree with’ bullshit, and file it under ‘cowardice’. Because that’s what it is.

Anyone who does what to discuss this further, can PM me. Happy to do that as well. Anyway; git Shabbos und gei gezunt.

I’m not a victim. If people are too bone-headed to admit they were wrong, then what can I do? And please explain why I need to ‘convince’ you of anything? If you can’t see the facts in front of you, again, what can I do? Maybe it’s easier to hide inside an imagined scenario, than admit the truth.

If you keep saying the same thing on a public forum, then it would seem fairly obvious that you are trying to convince others of your point of view.

As for the rest of it, you are presenting your opinion as fact. It isn’t.

In my opinion, you are wrong for the reasons already set out, so it’s a pity that you continue to be so “bone-headed”, as you put it.

Presumably if this thread is allowed to run its course we will eventually reach a point where everyone in the UK is a racist.

Except Jeremy

Presumably Bridges wouldn’t need to travel to find racists in the pub to shout at in that scenario

Don’t go there, man.

If the Rose and Crown wasn’t such a long drive I would be there this evening.

I yearn to sit transfixed listening to a wise elderly regular recall the Strange Tale of the Ramsbottom Flouncer.

Starmer speaks! Prepare for government!

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/jun/11/keir-starmer-accuses-boris-johnson-of-failure-of-leadership-in-anti-racism-row

Yeah but in keeping with this new trend of accusing those whose politics you don’t agree with of being racist, I would like to point out that Keir Starmer is in fact a racist :

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/14/keir-starmer-under-fire-failing-challenge-radio-caller-racism

Given Starmer’s apparent love for the England team and their woke instincts he should probably put Rashford and Southgate in his shadow cabinet. They’d be much more effective than the actual politicians, and Starmer himself.

Voting intention amongst 18-24s (+/- since 2019):

LAB: 35% (-21)
GRN: 27% (+23)
CON: 21% (-)
LD: 12% (+1)
SNP: 3% (-3)
REF: 1% (-)

Via @YouGov, 9-10 June

— Stats for Lefties (@LeftieStats) June 11, 2021

Does this mean the turnaround for focus groups is 6 days?

There's surely a gap in the market for ones that report back quicker! https://t.co/ALjQT2RiBR

— Michael Walker (@michaeljswalker) June 11, 2021

Football might be the ground upon which Starmer can express national pride (as his advisors have been telling him to). The thing is he’s a genuine football supporter, in that article it was pointed out that he attended both the quarter and semi finals at Wembley in 96 and follows Arsenal.

He’s got nothing to lose by becoming the public cheerleader for the England team (as long as they get out of the group stage…..)

It’s a pity the 18-24s can’t be bothered to vote or the 18-24s in that poll don’t made up a big enough number to make any difference at all as GRN got 2.7% vote share in 2019 didn’t they.
All the over 50’s who do bother to vote are the cause of the tory governments.

as GRN got 2.7% vote share in 2019 didn’t they.

Look at the swing since 2019. Its noticeable round here. Under corbyn labour did very well, since starmer and the move to the centre there has been a swing to the greens.

‘Over 50s?’, most of the gumby gammons on here are way younger than that. Get your stereotypes right! And Mancunians, you need to beware of uttering monstrous groans:

From the Calendar of Patent Rolls, Feb 18th 1265: “Pardon, at the instance of Thomas de Ferrariis, to William Pilche of Sonky, an idiot, for the death of Augustine le Fevere of Maunnecestre, as it appears by testimony of Robert de Stokeport, coroner in the county of Lancaster, and other trustworthy persons that the said William was passing along the high road by night when he was met by the said Augustine, in the disguise of a terrible monster uttering groans and refusing to speak though adjured in God’s name, on account of which the said William rushed upon him as a monster and killed him.”

‘Over 50s?’, most of the gumby gammons on here are way younger than that. Get your stereotypes right!

Apart from it is not a stereotype is it;

It’s a pity the 18-24s can’t be bothered to vote

Well labour need to give them something to vote for. Corbyn did that with the green new deal and free university education, and Starmer has been silent on these issues and instead talks about tax free savings accounts and flag waving. He couldn’t be further from what the young are interested in if he tried.

Unfortunately support for the Greens often falls away as a general election approaches, and rises again when one is (seemingly) a long way away. Why do I say ‘unfortunately’, well, I’d love there to be loads of Green MPs, but as a FPTP national election approaches people remember that if they vote Green not Labour they don’t help return a Green MP, they help return a blue one. It’s messed up, but you have to play the system, or the Tories will out play you.

Age per se doesn’t explain that distribution. Tory voters might live longer as well as be more likely to vote.

Tory voters might live longer as well as be more likely to vote.

You observations on the demographics seem likely to be true to me. It doesn’t change the problem for Labour though.

It’s a pity the 18-24s can’t be bothered to vote or the 18-24s in that poll don’t made up a big enough number

This.

Yes Labour need the younger voters, and absolutely should be representing them… but without getting the older voters on side they’re going to be an opposition party and a powerless campaign group for decades.

The Conservative government looks set on making it harder for young people to vote, and we have an ageing population. This problem will be worse in future, at least in UK wide elections.

Look at the swing since 2019. Its noticeable round here. Under corbyn labour did very well, since starmer and the move to the centre there has been a swing to the greens.

And

Why do I say ‘unfortunately’, well, I’d love there to be loads of Green MPs, but as a FPTP national election approaches people remember that if they vote Green not Labour they don’t help return a Green MP, they help return a blue one.

Comments like those cheese me off somewhat. Around me the Greens are doing well because they are working their arses off, Labour being super vague right now helps but it’s a long way down the list of reasons the Greens are winning, stop demeaning their work.

Similarly yes FPTP is a pile of arse but it’s not Labour’s right to be the other main party. If you want a green MP, vote for one. The more votes they get, the more votes they’ll attract, the more chance there is of actually getting what you want.

If you want a green MP, vote for one.

Er, yeah, right.

I used to vote Green quite often, and in the European Parliament elections it tended to get me a representative. I helped elect a Green councillor once as well. I only voted Green once in Westminster elections though, and it made as much difference as pissing on my ballet form and posting it in my compost heap. When it comes to electing our MPs, wasting our votes just leaves the Tories laughing their heads off at us.

Well in that case, keep wishing for something, acting against it and grumbling.

We haven’t had a Labour government in over 40 years (Blair doesn’t count because he was a secret Tory spy or something), so how’s those labour votes working out for you?

Well in that case, keep wishing for something, acting against it and grumbling.

Voting Green in a Tory/Labour marginal is just grumbling. Might make you feel good inside, but it has absolutely no effect on who is in parliament, and who gets to form a government. Despite our one and only Green MP excelling in her job beyond nearly everyone else in parliament. Vote in the system we have, not the one many of us wish we did have. People all across the country have seen her work, and want to elect more Green MPs to sit with her… but dispersed and spilt votes are what allows the Tories to have a big majority of seats on a minority of the votes.

Sorry, you’re right, I’ll get back to playing the game… The one where you’ve lost repeatedly and most recently got the biggest kicking of your life for it, perhaps it’ll be 15th time lucky.

We haven’t had a Labour government in over 40 years

Well, I’ve had a LibDem and a Labour MP to speak for me in parliament in the past, and both did so very well. Sadly here we keep returning a Tory scumbag (I don’t think all Conservative politicians and voters are scumbags by the way, but this guy really is). When it comes to Westminster elections, your vote is part of battle to return a single MP, and all you can do is try and get a good one that changes the balance in parliament. Signifying your support for someone who absolutely will not be an MP in any circumstances might give you (me) a warm glow, but it gives all those Conservative MPs a warmer one.

Problem is, you vote Labour Adm Nelson and the Armrests take it as an endorsement.

perhaps it’ll be 15th time lucky

Still only one Green MP. Perhaps it’ll be 5th time lucky. I genuinely hope it is, but it won’t be in this seat. And it’ll be 2 or 3 MPs across England, absolute best case scenario.

So your tactical voting has more often than not returned someone who you don’t want in parliament and you’re saying I should follow your lead otherwise someone I don’t want will be returned to parliament? Give me 5 minutes to just process that.

Just a heads up, I’m generally on side with you and Binners in these threads (that’s put a target on my back hasn’t it?) I just don’t go along with all this tactical voting stuff. There is on occasion a need for it and it might work but I’m finding it harder and harder to go along with it.

And it’ll be 2 or 3 MPs across England, absolute best case scenario.

Well that’s a shame but when people have the mentality of we wont vote for someone because they won’t win, its hardly surprising.

more often than not returned someone who you don’t want

How many times has your vote returned someone to speak for you in the UK parliament?

Look, vote how you want. I only started voting Labour at the 2017 election. My original point was just that, when there is a general election, fewer people say they will vote Green purely because of the election system we use. Green support in the polls being higher when there is (apparently) no general election imminent isn’t that remarkable, even if it does restore your faith in the public a bit.

As a side comment “we” can be far too harsh on the UK voting public, they have do what they can with the voting system in front of them, and the candidates presented to them.

How many times has your vote returned someone to speak for you in parliament?

Look, vote how you want. I only started voting Labour at the 2017 election. My original point was just that, when there is a general election, fewer people say they will vote Green purely because of the election system we use.

The one time the person who I voted for got in, they didn’t speak for me and that’s why I no longer vote for them.

So far no one has got in who speaks for me but that’s why I now vote for who I think deserves my vote, not for someone who doesn’t deserve my vote the least.

FPTP is a total mess but I don’t think it has quite as much influence on where the general public put their X as you think it does.

Or course it does. Plenty of general elections where a 3, 4, 5 party race narrows to, and results in, a pretty much straight choice between two candidates for most voters. You only have to look at the spread of votes whenever a different system is used.

I vote Green and yes they have gone up slightly where I live but quite a long way to go yet…

Can anyone honestly say they wouldn’t want to punch him in the face?

It’s unfortunate 32,000 don’t want to.

The Guardian: The Guardian view on Go Big: Ed Miliband on transforming Britain.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/13/the-guardian-view-on-go-big-ed-miliband-on-transforming-britain

“The country we are living in owes as much to Mr Miliband’s leftwing economics as it does to Mr Johnson’s social conservatism.”

So it turns out that the Guardian is quite comfortable with the “leftwing economics” being pursued by Boris Johnson.

I guess that gives us one reason less to vote Labour.

And one more reason why a socially conservative Labour voter should vote Tory.

What do you reckon binners……as a huge self- proclaimed fan of the Guardian are you also impressed with Boris Johnson’s leftwing policies?

Is The Rose and Crown thing an in joke or something? Seen it mentioned but no idea what it is.

Don’t ask.

Is The Rose and Crown thing an in joke or something?

No it’s no joke, it’s binners local pub. Although currently he doesn’t drink there. He got a bit upset with the regulars.