People have been kept stupid, so they don’t question anything properly

I think they question it when people call them stupid. And after a short reflection they vote for someone who isn’t calling them stupid.

Meh. Vaccines and Brexit. If it’s not back as Labour May 3, 2024 (Next G.E. is May 2, apparently) I’ll dob Labour a tenner – I’ve even put it in me diary!

Edit: By May 3rd, 2024. I anticipate the exchange rate will be £2,344,882,000 GBP to 1 EU Neu Federal Reichsmark.

Welcome news for Starmer, Labour have easily held Doncaster mayoral vote

Hartlepool was not good for him but the bigger picture is nationwide

Meh. Vaccines and Brexit. If it’s not back as Labour May 3, 2024 (Next G.E. is May 2, apparently) I’ll dob Labour a tenner – I’ve even put it in me diary!

I’d agree. This proves nothing, the circumstances of the next GE are going to be totally different to today.

Equally, it’s not easy to win if you’re openly calling the electorate racists and suckers.

That’s not going to be the focus of this weekend’s news cycle though, is it Kimbers. There’s also lots of … “They should be called the London Party, not the Labour Party” noise on social media at the moment… so I assume Sadiq Khan is expected to hold on in London (and that will be painted as a problem rather than a success).

Equally, it’s not easy to win if you’re openly calling the electorate racists and suckers.

While this has been going on… point me to it coming from Kier Starmer? Even attempts to claim some association with the Union Flag, and claim it for Labour, by him and his team has led to a barrage of abuse about trying to appeal to racists.

Equally, it’s not easy to win if you’re openly calling the electorate racists and suckers.

Yes you’ve said that over and over again, without any evidence. Who is calling people stupid anyway, Keir Starmer? Remind me when he did that? I mean, he indirectly did when he campaigned for a second referendum…

People have been kept stupid, so they don’t question anything properly

People are quite happy to stay stupid is more accurate, living in their social media bubbles, hanging onto simplistic ideas and blaming anyone but themselves. This is the majority of people at the moment, Brexit proved that. Regardless of policy people shoukdnt be voting Tory at the moment on principle due to the corrupt and incompetent government, but to many it’s normal when compared against reality TV and social media.

The electorate has always been like this to some extent but we were lucky in that the large majority of politicians didn’t openly criss the line and make corruption and poor behaviour seem normal, unfortunately Johnson has and the electorate don’t care.

While this has been going on… point me to it coming from Kier Starmer? Even attempts to claim some association with the Union Flag, and claim it for Labour, by him and his team has led to a barrage of abuse about trying to appeal to racists.

Yup, Kier’s got it right and I haven’t heard him take a pop at the electorate, plus as you say he’s suggesting flags etcs. Basic stuff that makes people think you like the country. Kier’s setting the example, the party need to follow it.

Who is calling people stupid anyway,

It’s so endemic you don’t even notice it:

People have been kept stupid, so they don’t question anything properly

I see the new labour glitterati are out on the news channels. Apparently labour ‘haven’t changed enough’. Translation: We’re not tory enough and need to do more purging of the left. It seems they’re determined to replicate their achievements in Scotland in England too.

Apparently labour ‘haven’t changed enough’.

Yup, it’s deffo the voters who are wrong here.

That’s certainly what they want to hear.

Translation: We’re not tory enough and need to do more purging of the left.

That’s your translation. I’d say a new policy platform has not yet been laid out, and so voters either have no idea what Labour stand for, or think they are still offering the policies that were so unpopular in 2019.

Although, policies aren’t the big issue here, it’s still “good old practical get things done British common sense and looking after our own”, versus “do gooders banging on about not breaking rules and laws and looking after others”.

I’d say a new policy platform has not yet been laid out,

Yup, it sucks but oppositions never clearly set out their stand so far away from a GE for all the obvious reasons.

The GE strategy needs to be matched to the circumstances they find in two years time.

That’s your translation. I’d say a new policy platform has not yet been laid out

It’s obvious where this is heading. They’ll double down on purging any form of left wing people, policies or thought in a headlong pursuit of centrist inoffensiveness and caution. The result will be a scottish style collapse. I confidently predict after the next election that the labour party will be reduced to a London and Manchester based rump, possibly with fewer than 100 MPs. Hell I might even put a bet on it.

Translation: We’re not tory enough and need to do more purging of the left.

If you can look at all the labour losses to the Tory’s and the last election and last night and conclude that you need to be less Tory and further to the left, then you’re not going to be forming a government any time soon.

I know that those on the left look about as likely to accept it this morning as they were in September, but people are in no mood for radical socialist alternatives and the only thing they’re likely to vote for is a fairer and more equitable version of the neoliberal system that we’ve got.

But even then…?

I’m afraid that we’re now dealing with a horribly uncomfortable new reality. The English nationalism and the culture war against ‘loony lefties’ and ‘the liberal elite’ that was started with Brexit and is being continued enthusiastically is finding a very, very receptive audience everywhere outside the big cities.

I haven’t got a clue how labour counter this now. Whether you are on the left or the centre of the labour party, surely you all believe in a set of values that a majority of the the electorate don’t seem much interested in at the moment.

Thats the horrible, depressing reality of Brexit Britain and the new normal

At least now people will be less distracted by waiting for votes, motions from the floor and hoping that the worm will turn. Will he move to the right, the left, resign, get served in a pub, all add up to quietism. Starmer has produced both photographic and electoral evidence that he cannot deliver a punch.
The right of the party see an active constituency membership as Trotskyite comrade sixth-formers who will scare the horses and the money men. Voters didn’t support Labour because of AS then, now because of AC. They would rather campaigning was done via the advertising industry and a slimmed-down, silenced and obsequious party makes it easier to select candidates from their chums and descendants. So the PLP becomes a smaller, liberal, similarly coiffed but occasionally vocal alternative to the permanently installed Tories in government. His sponsors will be happy enough with that. Anyone who is serious about challenging what is going on will have to look elsewhere for vision, organisation and support. They’ll only get opposition from Labour.

Still banging on about “Centrists” Dazh? I’d describe Nicola Sturgeon as a Centrist, and her work to make the SNP a party for all is part of Labour’s problem in Scotland. That and a referendum that put Labour “on the other side” for so many voters that just aren’t coming back (which sounds kind of familiar).

They’ll double down on purging any form of left wing people, policies or thought

Even though, after kelvin keeps on asking: Who have they purged? And what policies have changed? And the answer to that is always: no one in particular, and no policies have actually changed, you keep on saying this.

If Labour was still under Corbyn, the result wouldn’t have changed in Hartlepool

The answer is normally a list of people “purged” before Starmer was leader. Policies do have to change though, and even though I accept outofbreath’s comments about timing, if the Labour Party wait ’till the final hour to unveil to the public what they are about, it’ll be way too late… no one will be listening by then. I still think the party needs to change its leader a year out from a general election though. Policies aren’t enough. Starmer doesn’t have what it takes to win an election, he’s too dull… I’ve said that from the beginning, and he’s not showing much promise of proving me wrong. A good PM that will never be, barring a miracle.

I’d describe Nicola Sturgeon as a Centrist,

For sure. In fact you can make the case that the SNP are right of centre: They can set any tax rate they want but don’t… They’re not exactly big state.

On Five Live they’re presently treating us to benefit of Dianne Abbotts wisdom.

She’s not part of the problem, obviously.

She really is like nails down a blackboard

I still like Abbott, but that doesn’t negate your point. It’ll be Burgon next.

and no policies have actually changed

They’ve gone from having lots of very popular, detailed and forensically researched policies, to having none. Binners asks how they counter nationalism. Well some policies and a vision of how to improve the lives of people who have been left behind would be a start. The other obvious element is an active campaigning presence in communities, rather than a bunch of PR people running irrelevant focus groups in a london ad agency. They’ve got no policy or vision, and no one on the ground to campaign for them. That’s why people don’t vote for them.

Starmer doesn’t have what it takes to win an election, he’s too dull…

I *really* rate Starmer, he’s exactly the sort of PM I want to see, however, let’s assume the problem is him not the party (Which is a bit unlikely given labour’s electoral record over the last 60 years) who is there with star electoral quality to do it instead?

(As an aside I also don’t buy the idea that Boris is personally popular. He approval ratings are appalling.)

The other obvious element is an active campaigning presence in communities, rather than a bunch of PR people running irrelevant focus groups in a london ad agency.

Not sure what world you live in Dazh. I’ve spoken to four different Labour campaigners on my doorstep this week, and local councillors have managed to get themselves into national newspapers… the idea that everything in Labour is now top down glossy PR, and ground level campaigning is now for the birds, is nonsense.

EDIT: Ah, think I can perhaps see the “they should be called the London Party” line in action here.

People don’t read the policies
People are stupid
People are racist
People vote for things you don’t like or agree with

None of that is going to change. Either live with it or use the stupidity to fool them. Throw away integrity and honesty and do really clear and simple things to get into power (see Tory party for examples of how well that works)

They’ve gone from having lots of very popular, detailed and forensically researched policies, to having none.

Which were announced in the run up to the election, not 3 years before. (And the policies were a joke, and totally rejected by the electorate.)

They’ve got no policy or vision, and no one on the ground to campaign for them. That’s why people don’t vote for them.

The Tories have no policies, no vision, have to be blackmailed into feeding hungry children, give money to their mates, lie and cheat, couldn’t give a toss about the folk in Hartlepool. That’s why people vote for them.

The other obvious element is an active campaigning presence in communities, rather than a bunch of PR people running irrelevant focus groups in a london ad agency.

Yet they just voted overwhelmingly for a party with absolutely no campaigning presence in communities (and barely even any presence) at all, with campaigns run by a a bunch of PR people running irrelevant focus groups in a london ad agency?

But other than that…..

Good summary by Barwell (hes often a tool, but he’s mostly right here)

Many Labour MPs put all the blame for their 2019 defeat on Jeremy Corbyn. He was certainly a big factor but this narrative obscures the huge underlying challenges Labour faces. It is in a tougher situation today than the mid 1980s THREAD 1/n https://t.co/UToEQka9Fr

— Gavin Barwell (@GavinBarwell) May 7, 2021

This is being reported as a big shock, but where did people expect most of those 10k Brexit party votes to go? Wouldn’t the most basic analysis suggest an obvious Tory win?

People are stupid
People are racist

This is being reported as a big shock, but where did people expect most of those 10k Brexit party votes to go?

Brexit was a single issue and is now behind us. The logical thing for people who have voted on a single issue is for them to go straight back to the party they previously voted for.

The fact they didn’t should be a bit of a suprise and shows there’s a lot more going on here.

This is being reported as a big shock, but where did people expect most of those 10k Brexit party votes to go? Wouldn’t the most basic analysis suggest an obvious Tory win?

You’re not allowed to mention the 25% of the vote that went to the Brexit party at the last election and the fact that thats the only thing that prevented what happening last night happening then.

What you have to do instead is pretend its not part of the equation at all and just keep saying ‘Jeremy Corbyn retained the seat’

Brexit was a single issue and is now behind us

By behind us, do you mean like a big red bus as we step out into the road?

I don’t buy it being behind us in terms of political influence tbh.

Brexit was a single issue and is now behind us.

I think it’s a mistake to think that. Brexit has opened up a much bigger division. I think left and right are falling away, and the Tories have recognised that, they are becoming/have become a high spend/high tax party, all at the same time using cultural touchstones to appeal to socially conservative voters.

Brexit was a single issue and is now behind us. The logical thing for people who have voted on a single issue is for them to go straight back to the party they previously voted for.

The fact they didn’t should be a bit of a suprise and shows there’s a lot more going on here

Brexit was merely the starting gun of an culture war being waged by the Tory party which depicts the labour party as either a liberal elite or loony lefties, both held in equal contempt by voters in places like Hartlepool or Bolton or Rotherham, now that Brexit has clearly defined the dividing lines.

It’s been more successful than any of its architects dared to imagine. Expect a lot more of it

I mean behind us as in ‘your vote in Hartlepool or the local elections can’t affect brexit’.

The other obvious element is an active campaigning presence in communities, rather than a bunch of PR people running irrelevant focus groups in a london ad agency.

There’s plenty of us campaigning and talking about local issues. On the doorstep national policy is rarely the top topic. Sadly I think people complain locally and vote on popular headline points.

When you ask people what they want, it’s more money in schools, the NHS, social care, good roads, etc etc, because, well who wouldn’t?

They actually vote on immigration and standing up to the Left/EU because they vote on fear not hope.

That’s the genius of the right, you don’t need a policy or any semblance of sincerity, all you need is the fear of ‘them’.

(And yes, labour campaigners do exist in the South Binners)

Brexit isn’t behind us. It’s barely started. And I would argue it’s not a single issue but intrinsically tied to other policies and rhetoric. So would a Brexit voter reward the party which delivered what they wanted or return to a party which for many years had an incomprehensible policy on it?