Sure, but the people that Labour are supposed to represent; “The workers” turned back to them in less numbers in 2017 than those people turned towards the Conservatives. In fact a bigger slice of their support came from greens, students and the middle classes.

Personally I don’t think that’s necessarily a problem. I think Labour could do worse than appeal to the same groups of people that made it’s success in 2017 so astonishing. While everyone’s fixated on Hartlepool, the fact that Labour will again overwhelming win in London goes almost un remarked upon. A quick look at the way London has voted in the past (as recently at the 70’s London was totally controlled by the Tories.)  shows was a remarkable domination it is. This is hurdle that Labour has to overcome. It’s support now is in high density cities, and university towns, and not in socially conservative northern towns any longer. How you translate that to national support is for some-one with better ideas than me.

Stand by to see accusations of Anti-Semitism from those who’ve been taken in by the right…

As I understand it Starmer is married to a Semite and his children are being brought up in the Jewish religion.

So yes, I think it’s reasonable to conclude that your obvious anti-Starmer prejudices have their roots in anti-Semitism.

I bet you hated Ed Miliband too.

Up until Tony Blair become leader out of the 15 previous Labour leaders 10 could be said to have a working class background. Since then the chance of that are close to zero. Even on the back benches there is almost no working class representation.

That’s not the labour party, that’s UK education. For years every single UK PM went to a state school. Then Grammar Schools got closed so there’s no elite state education so PMs are privately educated these days.

Kier would have been state educated if his Grammar School hadn’t been closed (while he was there).

Apologies for posting a Toynbee piece as her articles are invariably unreadable self-indulgent nonsense, but it highlights the currrent arrogance of the labour right. Now they’ve got rid of pantomime villain Corbyn and regained control of the party, the idiot proles should just fall in line and ‘do their duty’. And they wonder why they lose?

“Voters have no excuse, with Keir Starmer and his frontbench a thoroughly electable, decent and honest alternative compared with the rogues’ gallery opposite.”

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/04/electoral-stamp-approval-tories-dishonesty-new-normal

invariably unreadable self-indulgent nonsense

It will seamlessly blend in… 😝

@Bridges, like last time, I’m not going to accuse you of anti-semitism, I’m just going to point out that you continue to use well known anti-Semitic tropes.

To be fair to Toynbee she concludes by saying “be patient”. So there you have it, stick with Starmer, and the invisible course he has plotted, and everything will come out in the wash.

Faith is what is needed. Presumably blind faith. Which is the sort of thing that binners accuses anyone who doesn’t support Starmer of.

Toynbee actually sums up the problem perfectly:

As Johnson arms himself with a hyped-up culture war of English nationalism and Brexit tribalism, he thrives on a more dangerously divided country.

It’s a tactic thats worked. Farage and UKIP showed the way, by demonstrating that there was actually a large demographic (52%) that were very receptive indeed to this xenophobic anti-foreigner, anti-liberal flag-waving.

I don’t know how a party that represents none of these things can possibly win an election in the present climate. Sadly, it’s not looking like anyone in the labour party presently has a clue either. Is it even possible?

You could argue that this has been bubbling away for decades. By polarising everything into a for or against brexit argument, he’s got a majority thinking he’s ‘on their side’ against a ‘liberal elite’ or ‘loony lefties’

I don’t know how a party that represents none of these things can possibly win an election in the present climate.

They nearly did in 2017. It came down to a few thousand votes in swing seats. It’s funny that your apparent defeatism comes after the supposed near certainty of a revived centrist labour party with ‘sensible’ leaders and policies being 20 points ahead of a car crash tory government. Now that the chickens from 2010/2015 are coming home to roost your explanation is that it’s simply impossible. It’s not impossible, the tories can be beaten, and they can be beaten by a lot, but it needs someone with an alternative, inspiring, hopeful vision beyond ‘the tories are evil, so do your duty’.

I think Labour could do worse than appeal to the same groups of people that made it’s success in 2017 so astonishing.

Completely agree. I’ve said many times on here that labour’s future lies in the progressive younger generation who have moved on from 20th century capitalist vs socialism and are more interested in how we’re going to prevent climate collapse and deal with accelerating automation. That’s absolutely not the direction Starmer is heading though is it? Instead those same people are now dismissed by cynics in the centre as dreamers, utopians or sixth formers. A smart leader would be looking to combine the energy and anger of the younger generation with the more traditional soft-left who are still worrying about taxes, debt, nationalisation etc but that’s the opposite of what is happening.

It’s not impossible, the tories can be beaten, and they can be beaten by a lot, but it needs someone with an alternative, inspiring, hopeful vision beyond ‘the tories are evil, so do your duty’.

As I keep saying, the appeal of the leader has as much to do with that as anything else. Go back over the last 40 years
– Thatcher was holding strong for a while and obvious to see her appeal
– Major had no appeal and got beaten by Blair who had much more appeal
– Blair was doing okay but when replaced by Brown who had no appeal Labour lost
– Even Corbyn had some appeal at the start and almost beat May, who had even less appeal than Major
– Then when up against Johnson, massive appeal, lost by a mile

I would put Starmer in the not much appeal camp so not hard to see how that would play out is it however outstanding his alternative, inspiring, hopeful vision is. The best I can hope for is for Johnson to get replaced with someone like Raab who has as much appeal as Starmer.

I bet you hated Ed Miliband too.

Oh God yes. Did you see the way he tried to eat a bacon sandwich? 😉

@Bridges, like last time, I’m not going to accuse you of anti-semitism, I’m just going to point out that you continue to use well known anti-Semitic tropes.

If you can prove this, please do so. If not, please apologise.

This is hurdle that Labour has to overcome. It’s support now is in high density cities, and university towns, and not in socially conservative northern towns any longer. How you translate that to national support is for some-one with better ideas than me.

Labour’s modern support is much higher in towns and cities with universities/centres of education. There is a correlation between political sensibilities and voting patterns; higher education = more ‘left wing’ views. So; the answer really is in improving educational facilities and access to education, particularly for adults, in those places that have no universities etc. There has been a gradual degradation of educational facilities in such places, over the decades. There is now very little adult education (such as ‘night schools’ etc) in many towns and cities, and the overall level of educational ability and attainment has been steadily dropping in the UK, over that time. And it doesn’t take a rocket scientist (or even a socio-economics professor) to work out that there is a link between low levels of education and right wing views. Cities like London are far more cosmopolitan, there is far greater discourse and sharing of ideas. To enable other areas to enjoy more of this, there needs to be investment across the board, from education and child support, to local jobs that are fulfilling and rewarding. It’s no wonder that so many young people growing up in more deprived areas, flock to the big cities. Decentralisation of education would be a great move. But somehow, I can’t see the tories and neoliberals going for that…

If you can prove this, please do so. If not, please apologise.

will you likewise apologise for continuing to use well worn anti Semitic tropes, after a number of posters have pointed this out to you now?

will you likewise apologise for continuing to use well worn anti Semitic tropes, after a number of posters have pointed this out to you now?

A ‘number of posters’? So far, it’s just you and Kelvin jumping on that bandwagon. As for apologising; if you can prove I’m guilty, I’ll do so*. If not, I expect you to retract your accusation and apologise. What you’re accusing me of is extremely serious, and I don’t take such accusations lightly. So; over to you.

*AS I know I’m NOT guilty of anti-Semitism, I’m not going to ever apologise to you for my comments on here. Just so you know.

– Then when up against Johnson, massive appeal, lost by a mile

Apparently Mrs Brown’s Boys is massively popular. Maybe Starmer could dress up as a woman and affect an Irish accent.

I’m only being half-flippant – we have sunk that low.

as his lack of balls means he’ll never stand up to his puppeteers

Anti-Semitic trope of the day award goes to….

This was my post a couple of pages back mentioning you using a well-worn anti Semitic trope. “Puppeteers” and “Global/ruling Elites” are both used by the far-right to cover their anti-Jewish speech . Again, to be clear I’m not going to accuse you of anti Semitism, but likewise I will point out every time you use anti-Semitic tropes when you talk about Starmer. You’re either doing it Ignorantly (not using that word in a pejorative sense) or you’re doing it deliberately to be provocative, or using it deliberately for other reasons, I don’t know, but I won’t ignore it.

They nearly did in 2017

No they didn’t.

I think Labour could do worse than appeal to the same groups of people that made it’s success in 2017 so astonishing.

‘Astonishing success? Eh? Define ‘success’?

They were a million miles away from having an overall majority which would have taken them into government. Is that ‘success’, astonishing or otherwise?

‘Not as catastrophic as we expected’ is not success, by any benchmark

Let’s base our policies on the manifesto that wasn’t quite as shit as the one after it, doesn’t sound like much of a basis for a route to government, does it?

Whatever Labour does to make itself relevant again, ‘lets recreate 2017’ isn’t going to be it. This is a complete rebuild which will take years.

In the present jingoistic flag-waving climate, the UK (or the English, at least) electorate is presently less likely than ever to be receptive to the idea of socialism. They don’t actually appear interested in much else other than jingoistic flag-waving if we’re being honest.

And don’t forget that was against May and you couldn’t have been up against a worse PM. If it was Corbyn vs Johnson it would not have been as close.

Let’s base our policies on the manifesto that wasn’t quite as shit as the one after it, doesn’t sound like much of a basis for a route to government, does it?

That’s exactly what I think they should be doing. I’d reword it though…

Let’s base our policies on the manifesto that was better received than the one after it…

…it’s not enough, but it’s a good starting point.

This was my post a couple of pages back mentioning you using a well-worn anti Semitic trope. “Puppeteers” and “Global/ruling Elites” are both used by the far-right to cover their anti-Jewish speech

What actually happened, is that Kelvin decided to interpret my comments about ‘puppeteers’ in a manner of his own choosing, no doubt in order to attack me by invoking accusations of anti-Semitism. And you jumped on that bandwagon. And in doing so, you have both inadvertently shown just how such accusations of anti-Semitism have been ‘weaponised’ by the right, to attack the left, in order to crush any dissent. Now; I have explained (not that I needed to anyway) that my comment of ‘puppeteers’ referred to corporate interests, and not, as you want to believe, in reference to some shadowy global Jewish cabal. There was absolutely nothing else in my comments, that could have led anyone to believe that I was in fact making anti-Semitic statements. At all. So any notion of me being ‘anti-Semitic, is entirely in your own head. Ask yourself why? Why did you and Kelvin come to that conclusion, as a result of one single word?

You accusations are not only extremely offensive, they are also disgusting, as weaponising anti-Semitism in the way you, and many on the right have, in order to stifle debate and to slur those who don’t agree with your world view, not only diminishes the abhorrence of real anti-Semitism, it also insults all those who do and have suffered from this terrible ideology. And to attempt to insult someone you do not know, whom you know nothing about in terms of their cultural, religious and social background, is just appalling. Shame on you.

You’re either doing it Ignorantly (not using that word in a pejorative sense) or you’re doing it deliberately to be provocative, or using it deliberately for other reasons, I don’t know, but I won’t ignore it.

The only ignorance here is your own. That you lack the self-awareness to even comprehend this, is evident here for all to see. You’ve exposed yourself as someone willing to use lies, untruths and slander, to shut down debate and ‘win’ an argument. And in doing so, exposed a major issue affecting the Labour party and further UK politics. Well done.

And don’t forget that was against May and you couldn’t have been up against a worse PM

Really? She was facing a pretty much impossible situation and lets not forget she only became the “worse” when she did rather poorly in the election. Prior to that she was riding high and was about to sweep all before her.
As for Johnson sweeping all before him. Remember they had to hide him away for the entire of the 2019 election and are repeating the same procedure now.

Really? She was facing a pretty much impossible situation and lets not forget she only became the “worse” when she did rather poorly in the election. Prior to that she was riding high and was about to sweep all before her.
As for Johnson sweeping all before him. Remember they had to hide him away for the entire of the 2019 election and are repeating the same procedure now.

The elections are what matter though aren’t they. May did very poorly, Johnson did very well – against the same Labour leader

bridges doth protest too much

Fred comes back under many names, but the style is always inevitably the same.

Fred comes back under many names, but the style is always inevitably the same.

Innit.

What actually happened, is that Kelvin decided to interpret my comments about ‘puppeteers’ in a manner of his own choosing, no doubt in order to attack me by invoking accusations of anti-Semitism. And you jumped on that bandwagon.

I’ve no idea if you’re anti-Semitic, but your language was the same as that used in an anti-Semitic trope. I speak as someone who believes that anti-Semitism has been wilfully misused as a means of attacking those on the left of the party.

I’ve no idea if you’re anti-Semitic, but your language was the same as that used in an anti-Semitic trope

As I’ve explained; I used ONE word that has been deliberately misinterpreted:

Starmer isn’t someone who will stand up for minorities. I’m struggling to think of who he actually would stand up for, to be honest; he needed his bodyguard to manhandle that pub landlord away from him. He just doesn’t possess any real courage or guts; he’s a weak Yes man who will do exactly as he’s told to, by his puppeteers.

Please explain how that is in any way, ‘anti-Semitic’.

bridges doth protest too much

Yes I’m going to ‘protest’, because I won’t be accused of something I’m not guilty of. Wouldn’t you?

The elections are what matter though aren’t they.

Your argument seems somewhat circular now. Also if you look at the underlying data Johnson doesnt really stand out against May.
You cant think of any other factors that changed between the two dates?

As I’ve explained; I used ONE word that has been deliberately misinterpreted:

If I’d said something that was also said by racists, I’d stop saying it.

If I’d said something that was also said by racists, I’d stop saying it.

So would I. But there’s nothing at all ‘racist’ or ‘anti-Semitic’ about the word ‘puppeteer’. Racists don’t get exclusive use of language. To accuse me of ‘anti-Semitism’ without foundation, to deliberately take my comment out of context, and to continue to do so in spite of my reasonable explanation of what I meant, is just turning a mistake into offence. And to enquire as to the motives behind that offence, is perfectly reasonable.

Also if you look at the underlying data Johnson doesnt really stand out against May.

Sorry @dissonance, it’s probably me not understanding, but could you explain what you mean?

So would I.

Well no, because you haven’t.

Well no, because you haven’t.

I’ve explained why I haven’t actually said anything ‘racist’ or ‘anti-Semitic’. Therefore I don’t actually need to stop saying anything. Quite simple really. If anyone can’t understand that, then that’s their problem and not mine. Thanks.

And I’ve explained why.

Yes, you’ve made it clear that you will continue to use an anti-Semitic trope, after it’s been pointed out to you.

(For clarity, I was replying to Fred’s Bridge’s original comment, before the ninja-edit)

Yes, you’ve made it clear that you will continue to use an anti-Semitic trope, after it’s been pointed out to you.

No, what I’ve done, is explain why you and others are wrong. That you cannot understand this, and wish to continue banging that same broken drum, is beyond me. Applying a modicum of thought would help here. I really wish you would, please.

In other news:

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/w/corbyn-joins-socialists-and-communists-condemning-neonazi-march-honouring

Haven’t seen any such condemnation by Starmer yet. Strange, because he claimed to be taking anti-Semitism seriously…

it’s probably me not understanding, but could you explain what you mean?

The differences in votes cast for him vs May are a couple of hundred thousand with 1.2% increase in the overall vote. His massive majority was a mix of FPTP and the drop in Labours vote and I am not sure that can be claimed as due to him.
Another way to look at it is if you compare her disastrous election vs 2015 she actually increased the tories share of the vote by 5.5%.

FPTP is crazy, isn’t it.

But if you look at polling (sorry) as regards leaders, rather than just votes cast for MPs/party in the election, hasn’t Johnson stayed stunningly (bafflingly) popular in a way May simply did not?

EDIT: importantly (because of FPTP) Johnson seems to be popular with voters in seats where May (and her predecessors) were not.

No, what I’ve done, is explain why you and others are wrong.

I’ve read your explanation, which is based on a false premise. I realise that you prefer to double-down rather than accept you’re in the wrong, but it’s not very edifying.

hasn’t Johnson stayed stunningly (bafflingly) popular in a way May simply did not?

But surely that fits in with the Brexity nation we appear to have become? May was never considered a true believer, despite her apparent conversion. It seems like the ‘B’ word has skewed everything to such a degree, so that if you’re a hardline Brexiteer, then you can pretty much do what you like.

I reckon Boris could give a press conference (surely that £2.6 million quid room has to be used for something?) where he just stands there grinning, throwing kittens into a wood-chipper and his popularity would still increase

rather than just votes cast for MPs/party in the election

Well Kerley was currently arguing thats all that counts.

hasn’t Johnson stayed stunningly (bafflingly) popular in a way May simply did not?

That goes back to how hard her job was. Despite her autocratic tendencies she was trying to achieve an impossible balance between the different parts of her party and was also getting slaughtered in the hard right press every time she looked like she would back away from a hard brexit.
Johnson has the advantage of being part of the media establishment and is mostly treated as such although some of them have started gearing up to replace him with Gove or Sunak (it was amusing to see them back off though when they realised it was overly successful just before the elections).