Viewing 40 posts - 5,681 through 5,720 (of 6,382 total)
  • Sir! Keir! Starmer!
  • Premier Icon kerley
    Free Member

    The electorate have shown quite clearly they don’t want a bloodless barrister pedantically picking apart government policy, they want someone to tell them what they want to hear.

    And they don’t want to hear what Labour have to tell them. If they did then Starmer would have an easy job. However, he has to get them to hear stuff they don’t want to listen to and even more than that get them to actually vote. Outside of blatant lying I am not sure how he can get them.

    Premier Icon grum
    Free Member

    If increased non-EU immigration is a problem then it’s an opportunity for Labour, if it’s not a problem then what’s the problem?

    It would be considered a problem for most Brexiters if they lived in the world of reality, but they don’t. I don’t think Labour going down the road of saying ‘hey Brexiters look there’s actually going to be more differently-pigmented people here now, not less like you wanted’ is really a good thing, do you?

    Premier Icon ransos
    Free Member

    However, he has to get them to hear stuff they don’t want to listen to and even more than that get them to actually vote.

    It would be nice if he’d at least try.

    Premier Icon kiksy
    Free Member

    Funding professional representation to oppose development would win you a marginal seat in some places – whatever.

    For me the important thing isn’t so much the funding but the having the membership take part enmasse to work on a project that helps that community.

    What you’re proposing is illegal I think. It’s pretty much why Johnson is in trouble with the electoral commission.

    If it is, then side step that by getting the membership to donate to charities or local groups who are working on some issue locally and then flood them with bodies on the ground to work on it.

    For me something like this would ignite the party and really get people to see Labour in a different light. It would help with the “they are all the same” mindset people have of politicians but most importantly it would bring people together within communities and rebuild bonds that both left/right remain/leave whoever would benefit from.

    Premier Icon ctk
    Full Member

    Yep PMQs rarely cut through. Cameron being rude to Corbyn was one that did. I wonder if Keir/Labour could play a bit dirty eg

    Could someone bring up Bojo’s injunctions in PMQs? &Ask questions like: “Does the Conservative Party still believe in family values?”. “Have you ever been sacked for lying” etc etc etc

    Premier Icon outofbreath
    Free Member

    What you’re proposing is illegal, I think.

    Not my idea but yeah, I picked it up. On reflection even if it’s legal it would be so transparent as to be counter productive. I was wrong.

    It’s pretty much why Johnson is in trouble with the electoral commission.

    Not sure I agree with this, Boris is in trouble for doing a Mandleson – effectively getting a bridging loan via the party. (Mandleson had to resign, sounds like Ben Elliot of “Quintessentially” will carry the can for Curtain-Gate.) Nothing to do with committing too much resource to a constituency campaign which I suspect is what you’re saying would be illegal about the “projects for votes” scheme.

    Premier Icon outofbreath
    Free Member

    People keep going on about this, I think it might have mattered 20 years ago…

    I confess I was struggling for ideas by the time I got to that one. 😁

    Premier Icon dazh
    Full Member

    He’s going to have landed us with crippling debt.

    FFS no he’s not. Even the tories and the right wing economic think tanks have given up on the myth of the deficit and the debt yet the centrists are still banging on about it.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    Even the tories and the right wing economic think tanks have given up on the myth of the deficit and the debt

    No, they haven’t. Start another thread and we can post clips and quotes from government ministers preparing the public for restrictions on spending and increases in taxation using debt/deficit/affordability language. I wish I lived in your world. And that’s before we get to how the media and press cover these issues. You can just look at debates about continuing the small increase in universal credit, or NHS pay, or the financial help for self employed during the pandemic, or…

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Full Member

    dazh
    Full Member

    Even the tories and the right wing economic think tanks have given up on the myth of the deficit and the debt

    Well, no, they haven’t. They don’t believe it, but of course that doesn’t really matter, they haven’t believed in their own economic policies for years.

    But they’ve certainly not given up on the myth. And since when was the reality ever actually important? The myth is what really counts.

    Premier Icon outofbreath
    Free Member

    the myth of the deficit and the debt yet the centrists are still banging on about it.

    Come on then. Let’s hear about Rishi’s economic masterstroke.

    I vaguely heard servicing this borrowing will cost us roughly an extra 1pc of National spending for the next 35 years. So what’s the real number, with a source please.

    Also, can you cite some other countries that have borrowed big style over covid and are opening saying it’s nothing to worry about because MMT?

    Frankly if the Torys have promptly vaccinated everyone *and* borrowing for Covid is going to be self financing, then it’s doesn’t really matter what Keir does over the next two years, he’s gonna lose by a landslide.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Full Member

    Come on then. Let’s hear about Rishi’s economic masterstroke.

    It’s got bollocks all to do with Sunak, he’s not doing anything different to anyone before him, but it is nonsense to say he’s accumulating ‘crippling’ debts.   The point is that when we need to spend money, we can, at very little long term cost. The tories and their dark money thinktanks have accepted that, and so should labour. Labour could do far more by embracing debt and the resultant investment than the tories ever will, so they should stop being shy about it.

    Premier Icon kerley
    Free Member

    The tories may have accepted it but they won’t ever tell the public that (and Labour don’t ever seem to either)
    They will still punish the least able to afford it over the next 10 years for no other reason that hatred of them and greed for themselves.

    Premier Icon BillMC
    Full Member

    ‘Paying back the debt’ is used to justify deregulating the labour market and cutting pay to restore or boost profits. The full impact has not yet hit the labour market and the housing market will be walloped by the coming evictions and homelessness. I’ve only heard Armrest make pronouncements on behalf of the landlords and the banks, it’d help if he had some policy ideas to challenge the tsunami of ordure cascading down. Once you do deals with your rich sponsors, the bosses, you expel the socialists from the party, you get gonged but you’ve got very little room for manoeuvre. Hence not supporting the nurses’ pay claim, giving out charity and always looking a bit hunted. Greed, capitalism and the pub landlord have not got us out of this crisis and the LP need to present an alternative perspective but that won’t come from focus groups of first-time Tory voters. I’m sure there are good people wanting to see an egalitarian change in society but smashing standards of living are much more likely and the LP will abstain or make revolutionary demands like ‘get a grip’.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    Again, who has been expelled from the party? Your last example was a councillor who was campaigning for the NIP candidate against the Labour one, and before that a list of people expelled while Corbyn was leader, before Starmer was elected.

    Premier Icon BillMC
    Full Member

    Walker, Williamson, Corbyn, Greenstein, Machover are just a few

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    Walker – expelled while Corbyn was leader, suspended back in, what 2017?
    Williamson – suspended in 2019?
    Greenstein – was it 2018?
    Machover – 2017?*

    And this is down to Starmer, how? That all predates his election.

    Or is this all about Corbyn losing the whip?

    EDIT: *after googling, it looks like Machover has been in and out of the party a few times since then, including being suspended last year, for working with the other names on your list, and refusing to answer questions as part of Labour’s disciplinary process about… well.. you know more than me about this than me no doubt… what was he refusing to answer questions about?

    Premier Icon pondo
    Full Member

    And since when was the reality ever actually important? The myth is what really counts.

    This to me is absolutely the biggest problem facing Starmer – a sizeable percentage of the electorate support a party of amoral fantasists who refuse any responsibility for the shitshow they’re in charge of. How do you convince working class Tory voters that they’re in a politically abusive relationship that they need to get out of?

    Premier Icon nickc
    Full Member

    How do you convince working class Tory voters that they’re in a politically abusive relationship that they need to get out of?

    How do you convince folks that that mirage that telly offers them of empty roads in your brand new car, jetting off to a empty beach while a smiling supermodel hands you a coke…is just a fantasy, and that really, want you want is a council owned house, an electric car, a bit of free broadband and a slightly less-crappy pension…(maybe, terms and conditions apply)

    Tongue in cheek, but really, it’s not hard to see why the Tories are so popular.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Full Member

    @grum, I read those as well, pretty spot on, this:

    It doesn’t help that Labour is also battling a perception in its former heartlands that the party has been captured by snooty metropolitans, far-left fanatics or both.

    Particularly

    Premier Icon rone
    Free Member

    want you want is a council owned house, an electric car, a bit of free broadband and a slightly less-crappy pension

    That’s not really an accurate view of Socialism though.

    But you may have at least hit the nail on the head with bob-eyed perception of what it might be.

    What we currently have is a model built on house prices out of whack and cheap private debt, and low wages. It won’t last forever. And when it goes boom we will need the Government to make it right again.

    Premier Icon kerley
    Free Member

    What we currently have is a model built on house prices out of whack and cheap private debt, and low wages. It won’t last forever. And when it goes boom we will need the Government to make it right again.

    And that will be the tory party as the voters who vote tory will still think they are the best party to deal with it. The abusive relationship comparison is a good one.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Full Member

    It doesn’t help that Labour is also battling a perception in its former heartlands that the party has been captured by snooty metropolitans, far-left fanatics or both.

    Indeed. The first is due to Labour’s catastrophic second referendum policy and the persistent attempts by the party between 2017 and 2019 to frustrate the brexit decision despite the fact that northern MPs were screaming that they were losing it’s working class base. The second is a direct result of the weaponisation of anti-semitism to portray anyone who was against Israeli policy as a dangerous anti-semitic extremist. Now someone remind me which wing of the party were responsible for those two things?

    Premier Icon ernielynch
    Free Member

    a sizeable percentage of the electorate support a party of amoral fantasists who refuse any responsibility for the shitshow they’re in charge of.

    Yeah but that’s not the problem. The problem is the Labour Party, not the Tory Party.

    There is no evidence to show that the Tories are particularly popular. The last 3 opinion polls all put support for the Tories at 40%.

    Which is less than the 42% the Tories got in the 2017 general election when Theresa May lost the election and failed to get a majority.

    What the polls do show however is that the Labour Party is extremely unpopular, relatively speaking.

    It is a mistake, and not at all useful, to mistake Labour’s unpopularity for Tory popularity.

    Premier Icon ernielynch
    Free Member

    As I’ve said before, the Tories will be blamed for Labour doing badly when the responsibility actually lies with the Labour Party

    Premier Icon dazh
    Full Member

    As I’ve said before, the Tories will be blamed for Labour doing badly when the responsibility actually lies with the Labour Party

    The fundamental issue is that everyone knows what the purpose of the Labour party is, which is to represent and fight for the interests of working people in parliament. The trouble is that for most of the past 25 years, the Labour party haven’t done this. When they did for a brief period in 2015-2017 they saw their vote share recover and their membership increase massively. Since then they’ve gone back to doing what they were pre-2015 and their vote share and support has gone back to what it was before. It’s not rocket science is it?

    Premier Icon nickc
    Full Member

    When they did for a brief period in 2015-2017 they saw their vote share recover and their membership increase massively

    the lowest increases in Labour’s 2017 support came from the working class, with a 9-point increase among the skilled workers outweighed by the 11-point increase enjoyed by the Conservatives. The facts don’t support your assertions. More working class voters voted for conservatives in both 2017 and 2019. Labour’s increase in votes in 2017 came from Students (see Canterbury) and professionals (AB social class).

    Premier Icon dazh
    Full Member

    The facts don’t support your assertions.

    That’s not what I said though. I didn’t say their gains came from the working class, only that once they returned to doing what voters understood to be their traditional purpose, their vote share recovered accordingly.

    Premier Icon ernielynch
    Free Member

    The fundamental issue is that everyone knows what the purpose of the Labour party is, which is to represent and fight for the interests of working people in parliament.

    Actually to be more precise the Labour Party was founded by working people to represent themselves in parliament.

    The Liberal Party, a party dominated by well-meaning affluent professionals, who without doubt provided important social reforms, ultimately proved to be an unsatisfactory vehicle for that.

    Today we are actually in a very similar situation – history repeats itself first as a tragedy, second as a farce.

    Up until Tony Blair become leader out of the 15 previous Labour leaders 10 could be said to have a working class background. Since then the chance of that are close to zero. Even on the back benches there is almost no working class representation. People like Dennis Skinner no longer exist in the parliamentary Labour Party.

    Premier Icon bridges
    Free Member

    For me the important thing isn’t so much the funding but the having the membership take part enmasse to work on a project that helps that community.

    Do you mean ‘activism’? Because that is already happening, as I described briefly earlier. There are/were countless groups affiliated with Labour, who actively get together to help out in the ‘community’, to achieve positive change. This is the kind of grassroots activism that saw a massive surge under Corbyn’s leadership, yet under Starmer, has seen many groups no longer want to be associated with Labour. Losing these is disastrous for Starmer, as is losing union support, because it will leave him with even less support of the very people Labour is supposed to represent; the labour force.

    The fundamental issue is that everyone knows what the purpose of the Labour party is, which is to represent and fight for the interests of working people in parliament. The trouble is that for most of the past 25 years, the Labour party haven’t done this. When they did for a brief period in 2015-2017 they saw their vote share recover and their membership increase massively.

    This. Labour has become little more than a shell to represent corporate interests, under the guise of being ‘for the people’. It clearly no longer is, and increasing numbers of people are realising this, and becoming disillusioned with politics altogether. Making things even easier for the ruling elites. That not a single Starmerite on here has given any meaningful answer as to how Starmer is going to reverse this, shows just how utterly useless he really is, for the people that need to be represented. He may well, however, be very useful for those ruling elites, if they decide they need a new puppet*, if and when Boris outlives his usefulness to them. But he’s not going to actually change anything.

    *Stand by to see accusations of Anti-Semitism from those who’ve been taken in by the right…

    Premier Icon nickc
    Full Member

    Sure, but the people that Labour are supposed to represent; “The workers” turned back to them in less numbers in 2017 than those people turned towards the Conservatives. In fact a bigger slice of their support came from greens, students and the middle classes.

    Personally I don’t think that’s necessarily a problem. I think Labour could do worse than appeal to the same groups of people that made it’s success in 2017 so astonishing. While everyone’s fixated on Hartlepool, the fact that Labour will again overwhelming win in London goes almost un remarked upon. A quick look at the way London has voted in the past (as recently at the 70’s London was totally controlled by the Tories.)  shows was a remarkable domination it is. This is hurdle that Labour has to overcome. It’s support now is in high density cities, and university towns, and not in socially conservative northern towns any longer. How you translate that to national support is for some-one with better ideas than me.

    Premier Icon ernielynch
    Free Member

    Stand by to see accusations of Anti-Semitism from those who’ve been taken in by the right…

    As I understand it Starmer is married to a Semite and his children are being brought up in the Jewish religion.

    So yes, I think it’s reasonable to conclude that your obvious anti-Starmer prejudices have their roots in anti-Semitism.

    I bet you hated Ed Miliband too.

    Premier Icon outofbreath
    Free Member

    Up until Tony Blair become leader out of the 15 previous Labour leaders 10 could be said to have a working class background. Since then the chance of that are close to zero. Even on the back benches there is almost no working class representation.

    That’s not the labour party, that’s UK education. For years every single UK PM went to a state school. Then Grammar Schools got closed so there’s no elite state education so PMs are privately educated these days.

    Kier would have been state educated if his Grammar School hadn’t been closed (while he was there).

    Premier Icon dazh
    Full Member

    Apologies for posting a Toynbee piece as her articles are invariably unreadable self-indulgent nonsense, but it highlights the currrent arrogance of the labour right. Now they’ve got rid of pantomime villain Corbyn and regained control of the party, the idiot proles should just fall in line and ‘do their duty’. And they wonder why they lose?

    “Voters have no excuse, with Keir Starmer and his frontbench a thoroughly electable, decent and honest alternative compared with the rogues’ gallery opposite.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/04/electoral-stamp-approval-tories-dishonesty-new-normal

    Premier Icon piemonster
    Free Member

    invariably unreadable self-indulgent nonsense

    It will seamlessly blend in… 😝

    Premier Icon nickc
    Full Member

    @Bridges, like last time, I’m not going to accuse you of anti-semitism, I’m just going to point out that you continue to use well known anti-Semitic tropes.

    Premier Icon ernielynch
    Free Member

    To be fair to Toynbee she concludes by saying “be patient”. So there you have it, stick with Starmer, and the invisible course he has plotted, and everything will come out in the wash.

    Faith is what is needed. Presumably blind faith. Which is the sort of thing that binners accuses anyone who doesn’t support Starmer of.

    Premier Icon binners
    Full Member

    Toynbee actually sums up the problem perfectly:

    As Johnson arms himself with a hyped-up culture war of English nationalism and Brexit tribalism, he thrives on a more dangerously divided country.

    It’s a tactic thats worked. Farage and UKIP showed the way, by demonstrating that there was actually a large demographic (52%) that were very receptive indeed to this xenophobic anti-foreigner, anti-liberal flag-waving.

    I don’t know how a party that represents none of these things can possibly win an election in the present climate. Sadly, it’s not looking like anyone in the labour party presently has a clue either. Is it even possible?

    You could argue that this has been bubbling away for decades. By polarising everything into a for or against brexit argument, he’s got a majority thinking he’s ‘on their side’ against a ‘liberal elite’ or ‘loony lefties’

    Premier Icon dazh
    Full Member

    I don’t know how a party that represents none of these things can possibly win an election in the present climate.

    They nearly did in 2017. It came down to a few thousand votes in swing seats. It’s funny that your apparent defeatism comes after the supposed near certainty of a revived centrist labour party with ‘sensible’ leaders and policies being 20 points ahead of a car crash tory government. Now that the chickens from 2010/2015 are coming home to roost your explanation is that it’s simply impossible. It’s not impossible, the tories can be beaten, and they can be beaten by a lot, but it needs someone with an alternative, inspiring, hopeful vision beyond ‘the tories are evil, so do your duty’.

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