Libya was just as much a **** up as Iraq but Cameron doesn’t get as much pelters for that – nor Obama.

The left is self destructive and overly self critical.

I’m not sticking up for Blair, that list of achievements bar a few is bolx and a list that the Tories could easily write about their time in power.

Saying that I’d take Starmer over the Tories all day. I feel like leaving the country because of the corrupt, immoral shit show running the country.

BUT I think Starmer won’t get anywhere by trying to out centre them, he needs to think out of the box a bit.

The left is self destructive and overly self critical.

Bollocks. The left didn’t call their centrist colleagues racists and terrorist sympathisers. The left never worked behind the scenes to lose an election. The left never declared that they wouldn’t support a labour govt if elected. The ‘left’ are not the problem.

This thread is just chewing the cud really. I can’t see what the Labour party can do until the covid situation recedes, damned if they do, damned if they don’t sort of thing.

The political battle is going to be fought on the funeral pyre of Brexit. As much as it might be a disappointment to those on the left of the party, the best hope for Labour will be to be uber centralist. There’s going to be an enormous constituency of disgruntled business persons who, if engaged with will lend enormous credibility to the labour party and go some way towards flipping the script with regards percieved fiscal responsibility.

The left’s best hope is to shut up for the meantime and let the Labour party fight on a centrist platform and hope that he delivers something more progressive once and if he gets into office. Kind of like what’s just happened in America.

Trump wasn’t defeated by the progressive’s, he was defeated by the ultimate centrist. Now he is in the White House hes delivering an agende more in line with AOC and the like. Politics has never been about delivering on a manifesto, It has always been about getting into office then doing what you want.

Although I do wish Starmer would take a leaf out of Biden’s book and hide in his basement. Every time I see him in front of the camera he manages to make thinks worse. I think he would be more effective as an invisible man meme, sometimes you say it beat when you say nothing at all. After all, hiding in a fridge never hurt Boris did it.

This thread is just chewing the cud really. I can’t see what the Labour party can do until the covid situation recedes, damned if they do, damned if they don’t sort of thing.

100% this

Johnson & Starmer are passengers at this point

Johnsons lies over NI are biting him in the arse
And this was the right thing for Starmer to say

Keir Starmer calls on Boris Johnson to "show leadership" and "convene all-party talks" following violence in Northern Ireland

"The prime minister can't be absent," says the Labour leader https://t.co/4Muv8E6rMV pic.twitter.com/z4gqZYWQsM

— BBC Politics (@BBCPolitics) April 8, 2021

He needs to hammer that home

Bollocks. The left didn’t call their centrist colleagues racists and terrorist sympathisers. The left never worked behind the scenes to lose an election. The left never declared that they wouldn’t support a labour govt if elected. The ‘left’ are not the problem.

The left as in left of the Tories.

Politics has never been about delivering on a manifesto, It has always been about getting into office then doing what you want.

Exactly, a point that seems to be missed by the perfections in this thread.

– Do whatever you need to to get into power, do whatever you want once in power.

That is what the tories have done forever. Is anyone checking off against what they have delivered against their manifesto and then basing their vote on what % of stuff was achieved, No they haven’t.

singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/sir-kier-starmer/page/126/#post-11834721

Because I have 2 kids and I want them to live in a U.K. which isn’t in such huge debt

Serious question, why do you want us to be in debt? I remember the last time labour were in charge. They left a message saying coffers were empty, good luck! Different flavours of turd

They left a message saying coffers were empty, good luck!

Did this actually happen?

I always thought it was a Tory fabrication, to excuse what came next and blame it on someone else?

Did this actually happen?

I always thought it was a Tory fabrication, to excuse what came next and blame it on someone else?

Nope, the idiot actually wrote the note

Did this actually happen?

Yea, Liam Byrne left a note for David Laws a LibDem MP (intended to be a private joke) it said “Dear Chief Secretary, I’m afraid to tell you, there’s no money left”

The left’s best hope is to shut up for the meantime and let the Labour party fight on a centrist platform and hope that he delivers something more progressive once and if he gets into office. Kind of like what’s just happened in America.

Problem is Biden was polling well above Trump for months before the election, when it came to it it was closer than predicted.

Labour sitting quietly is a huge gamble and revolves around the Tories making EVEN MORE mistakes than they have in the last year to shift voting intention.

I struggle to even imagine what the Tories would need to do to get Labour polling above them.

Serious question, why do you want us to be in debt?

Because without govt debt, there can’t be a private side surplus. (they have to balance) In reality the Bank of England is just an arm of the govt, it writes it’s own cheques effectively. So “govt debt” is, in reality, money we owe ourselves. To prevent inflation running away (because of excess money) we tax it out of circulation. If we didn’t just conjure up money from nowhere, where do think the Tories got the nearly £400billion to help furlough all the workers?

Because I have 2 kids and I want them to live in a U.K. which isn’t in such huge debt

Serious question, why do you want us to be in debt? I remember the last time labour were in charge. They left a message saying coffers were empty, good luck! Different flavours of turd

You do realise that government finances are totally different to personal finances? I don’t pretend to understand economics as it is a huge topic that even experts disagree on, but to state in such terms vastly over-simplifies things. It’s what the Tories have done for the past 10 years to great effect. Labour left a note as a joke as is apparently tradition and the Tories weaponised it.

Do whatever you need to to get into power, do whatever you want once in power.

Ok cool how’s that going?

Austerity is not about paying down the debt it’s about reducing employees’ standards of living to restore or enhance profitability. It generally goes along with deregulation in the labour market and more money and pay rises for those who are employed to crack down on the predicted protests. That’s why the ‘debt’ has spiralled under the tories and greed and capitalism are still very much alive and well.
Despite the claim to be the party of business, all they’ve done is spaff money at failing businesses or just give it away to a PPE start-up chums down the pub. You’d like to think that a LOTO would erupt at least some of this rather than just ‘get a grip’ or ‘be fair’. Johnson has got a grip, he’s doing exactly what he wants, unopposed.

Serious question, why do you want us to be in debt? I remember the last time labour were in charge. They left a message saying coffers were empty, good luck! Different flavours of turd

Because a national debt rerpresents a surplus in the economy, which is then invested to create jobs and wealth and we are all better off because of it. If we pay back ‘the debt’ then we take money out of the economy and get recessions. The national debt is a mirage, most of it doesn’t really exist as it’s the government owing itself money in the form of QE, a big chunk of it is central bank reserve accounts which stops the banking system from collapsing, and the rest is savings accounts. Only a small amount is real debt which is at tiny interest rates which are easily manageable. Honestly I’m not making this up, do a bit of research and you’ll find the thing you’re worried about is actually beneficial to you.

I am bemused by those who demand that we repay the UK government’s debt. It makes me wonder, do they know what it is? And how do they think it can be repaid? And do they appreciate the consequences? A thread is coming on……bear with me, because I think you need to know this.

— Richard Murphy (@RichardJMurphy) December 20, 2020

Nope, the idiot actually wrote the note

It’s interesting isn’t it, becaue he was either taking the piss (almost certainly the case), or he really is an idiot as he was chief secretary to the treasury and doesn’t appear to understand how money is created or how government finances work, which would both seem to be prerequisites for the job.

It’s a tradition apparently, the out going chief secretary writes a welcoming jovial note to his/her successor. The Lib/Dem/Tory govt weaponised it for their own purposes.

Do whatever you need to to get into power,

I actually agree with this despite binners’ monty python fantasies. Rule no 1 is have a united party. How’s that going?

If anyone’s really intersted in what Keir thinks then this is a useful look under the bonnet. It would appear his instinct is for us to work more. That’s all well and good but with automation accelerating and neoliberalism collapsing it’s hopelessly out of date.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/08/keir-starmer-britain-ideas-labour-leader-jeremy-corbyn

The left’s best hope is to shut up for the meantime and let the Labour party fight on a centrist platform and hope that he delivers something more progressive once and if he gets into office. Kind of like what’s just happened in America.

An absolutely stupid idea; you’d marginalise significant numbers of party members, supporters, activists and voters. As well as actually suppressing democracy. As I’ve said repeatedly; the problem with Labour isn’t the ‘left’, it’s the very small minority who make up the right wing of the party, who have the wealth and power, who are really causing the damage. If the 2017 election had been fought by a leader with perhaps a bit more public appeal than Corbyn, Labour would probably have won. It’s not about the policies.

No. Labour’s best hope is if it quietly moves the right wing grandees out to pasture somewhere, and gets a lot more progressive thinkers in. Offering a watered down version of what the tories do, is like having low-fat stuff; it might be a little more ‘healthy’, but it’s insipid and appetising. Time to change the menu.

And people need to understand that the notion of where the ‘centre’ in British politics is, has shifted significantly. Blair dragged the party well over towards the right, enabling the tories to drag things even further right, so Starmer is now roughly around where John Major was. It’s very interesting how more objective international observers saw Corbyn as much more ‘centre left’ than the far left wing extremist the UK media made him out to be. Whoever leads Labour, needs the skill and ideas to be able to gently steer Labour back on course. Right now, Starmer is the captain of the Ever Gullible; stuck in a narrow canal, with no room to turn round.

Rule no 1 is have a united party. How’s that going?

There’s a probably a whole raft of reasons the Conservative party is often called the “the most successful political party ever” but I doubt “united party” has ever been in the top five reasons. I’d say disassociation is probably the thing they’re best at.

Most elections in this country boil down to “It’s time for a change” or “Lets keep going” and the Tories in every election (regardless of how long they’ve been in power) manage to make themselves the answer to both those questions, both at the same time the Brave Defenders of and the uppity Challengers to the status quo, always rescuing the nation from a leftist takeover that never quite seems to materialize.

You only have to look at Johnson who can (and is) all things to all men: Clown and Wartime leader, Libertarian and Authoritarian. I think the “problem” with the “left” is that we always feel the need to make people understand, to educate and I think a huge swath of folk just want to be told, “it’s fine, it’s going to be fine, and everything will get better”, and that’s what the Tories say every time.

Nope, the idiot actually wrote the note

It’s interesting how on a forum where so many dismiss the common man as being a thick idiot who swallows Tory lies, the great Tory/LibDem deficit lie appears to have gained some traction.

Context is everything. A couple of years previous to the note being written the world had experienced the worse global financial crisis since the 1930s.

The reason some people might have forgotten this is probably due directly to the actions that Gordon Brown’s government took. Despite the magnitude of the crisis its effects on the average person were far less than the Tory recessions of the early eighties and early nineties. Thatcher’s recession caused historical levels of unemployment, John Major’s recession caused historical levels of home repossessions, both with devasting effect on millions of people.

What Gordon Brown did was classic keynesian economics, he pumped money into the public sector to protect both the economy and people’s jobs. It worked spectacularly well and it was a strategy that was used throughout the world. In fact although George W Bush was elected as a conservative US president he left office more or else a socialist, eg at one point the majority of mortgages in the US were owned by the US government.

As someone who had always been deeply critical of the Blair/Brown years I was hugely impressed. Although not everyone was impressed, for example LibDem Vince Cable, despite his later damascene anti-deficit conversion, critised Brown on an almost daily basis for not, according to him, pumping enough money into the economy.

Obviously in a recession budgetary deficits grow, at least they should, as revenue from both income and sales taxes fall and spending on investment and benefits increases. Labour even went as far as cutting taxes, ie VAT, to help protect jobs.

The result was that of course there wasn’t any money left when a government elected on the deficit lie came to power. In fact the real scandal would have been if after enduring the worse global financial crisis in 80 years there was found to be a budgetary surplus.

The note was clearly a joke as in “haha there’s no money left, see if you can do any better!”. The mistake the author made was not to realise that the coalition government would use it to bolster the Great Deficit Lie.

No. Labour’s best hope is if it quietly moves the right wing grandees out to pasture somewhere, and gets a lot more progressive thinkers in.

Like who?

Richard Burgon?
Laura Piddock?
Rebecca L-B?

Name this pool of talent

Rule no 1 is have a united party. How’s that going?

They don’t have to be united, a ceasefire and front bench collective responsibility works just fine

Ok cool how’s that going?

I would say it is going spectacularly well, have you not seen the Tory party majority?

Name this pool of talent

I can’t say anyone really stands out for me. Possibly Zarah Sultana, Nadia Wittome, Bell Ribeiro-Addy, as being refreshingly different to many of the old Blairites. Piddock was ok, shame she lost her seat. Labour obviously have some recruiting to do. Perhaps they could start a grassroots campaign to engage new members? The certainly need to gain some momentum on that score…

They don’t have to be united, a ceasefire and front bench collective responsibility works just fine

If you look at the Tory front bench, surely as bereft of obvious political talent as Labour (Gavin Williamson FFS?), any single one of them would happily knife Boris in a heartbeat if they thought it would get them the top job. And when the time comes, they will do, with utter ruthlessness. Rishi Sunak is obviously itching to do so.

But in the meantime they all just smile and wave for the cameras. A picture of unity and harmony. ‘form a square around the Pritster’

Labour could do with a bit more of that instead of feeling the need to do all its dirty laundry in public.

The result was that of course there wasn’t any money left when a government elected on the deficit lie came to power. In fact the real scandal would have been if after enduring the worse global financial crisis in 80 years there was found to be a budgetary surplus.

I’m sorry Ernie this is utter nonsense.

You have hit the nail on the end in re-enforcing the tax and spend narrative which Labour keep running with, and will lose every time against the Tories. Prudence for Labour – spend what you like if you’re a Tory.

Few labour MPs understand this. Hence the note.

A sovereign country with a central bank cannot run out of money or default. Ever.

It’s spend does not come from taxes, all Government spending is new money creation.

Going to the bond market to ‘borrow’ is political choice and not necessary – hence the wrap around with Q/E.

The Labour chap who wrote that threw a massive cookie to the establishment.

Gordon Brown did okay actually in messed up situation.

I can’t say anyone really stands out for me. Possibly Zarah Sultana, Nadia Wittome, Bell Ribeiro-Addy, as being refreshingly different to many of the old Blairites

Are these your immediate thoughts when asked to list thinkers of the labour left?

Could you link to their published articles where they discuss how they plan to transform Britain. I’m looking forward to be inspired by these “refreshingly different” labour thinkers

Always remember chaps lack of talent in the Tory front bench hasn’t stopped them being elected.

Labour’s single biggest problem (apart from the Hodges, Streetings, Bradshaws etc) is poor marketing and branding. I hate to be all agency about it but they need to sort out their Comms as well as the substance.

If you look at the Tory front bench, surely as bereft of obvious political talent as Labour (Gavin Williamson FFS?), any single one of them would happily knife Boris in a heartbeat if they thought it would get them the top job. And when the time comes, they will do, with utter ruthlessness. Rishi Sunak is obviously itching to do so.

Goddamn agree.

Are these your immediate thoughts when asked to list thinkers of the labour left?

No; they’re just a few examples of Labour MPs, recent and current, that I think offer something a bit different to Hodge, Hilary Benn, Yvette Cooper etc. The kind of people who are more likely to be found in a fancy restaurant in Highgate, than actually out and about amongst their constituents. Has Cooper ever even been to Pontefract or Castelford?

Labour’s single biggest problem (apart from the Hodges, Streetings, Bradshaws etc) is poor marketing and branding. I hate to be all agency about it but they need to sort out their Comms as well as the substance.

Arse! Is that me and you agreeing twice in two posts?

Their comms are generally awful. Whoever’s in charge of it needs handing a revolver and a whisky and instructed to go for a long walk

Love him or hate him, Alastair Campbell/Malcolm Tucker had that sorted out in no uncertain terms. They need to get someone in who can get a similar grip

Labour could do with a bit more of that instead of feeling the need to do all its dirty laundry in public.

I don’t recall you saying this when they were busy undermining the previous leader.

Believe it or not, nobody listens to me, so what I say has no relevance to anything. I’m just one of several million gobshites on the internet shouting into the abyss

But if you’re an MP or part of the party machinery you need to sort your shit out. Both ‘sides’ of the party are as bad as each other for having vicious spats very publicly.

The Torys don’t. With them its just a stiletto between the shoulder blades in the middle of the night and its all done and dusted. Just look how Johnson cleared out all the non-brexiteers and cast them into political oblivion.

Would you bet against that side of the party staging an equally viscious comeback, given even half a chance? You don’t hear them countering about it though. If it comes it will be fast and brutal

Theres no way on earth that a Tory leader would get to lose 2 consecutive elections. Not a chance. The knives would have been out as the first exit polls came in

No; they’re just a few examples of Labour MPs, recent and current, that I think offer something a bit different to Hodge, Hilary Benn, Yvette Cooper etc

You are dodging the question, you suggested the three MPs you listed and added Laura Piddock as the sort of progressive thinkers that Labour need to lead them into government. I’ve asked for examples of their thinking as I want to see that they are hoping to bring forward as a new direction for Labour.

So if they aren’t the thinkers who is?

You are dodging the question

No I’m not, I’m simply ignoring it. I gave those three as examples of current Labour MPs who aren’t white, privileged middle class right wing types. Ergo, possibly a little closer to the kind of people they represent in parliament, ie, their constituents. It’s this disconnect between MPs and their constituents, that has left Labour out in a political wilderness; they don’t know how to move the party forward, because they have very little in common with their constituents, party members, supporters and the public at large. They consider themselves above ‘ordinary’ people, so won’t actually listen to their concerns, wants and needs. I have no idea if the four people I’ve mentioned would actually be any good if in government. But if Labour are to move forward and actually be an attractive proposition to voters, they have to actually offer something that’s a bit more than the sugar-free alternative to toryism.

I’m sorry Ernie this is utter nonsense.

There’s really no need to apologise rone, I’m sure you have your reasons for not understanding the context that the comment was made.

No, no one actually believes that the Treasury has coffers stuffed with bank notes. When Liam Byrne left the note it wasn’t meant to be taken literally, ie the last drawfull of twenty pound notes has been used up. The reference was of course was being made to the deficit.

You have hit the nail on the end in re-enforcing the tax and spend narrative which Labour keep running with, and will lose every time against the Tories.

I wouldn’t like to call that utter rubbish but I am fairly sure that the highest tax burden the UK has ever experienced was during the Thatcher years, those millions of unemployed didn’t pay for themselves. Plus the Tories have a worse deficit record than Labour. Check it out.

Got to agree with nickc’s point about the lefts insufferable habit of having to educate and explain things. It’s a pursuit of perfection that also accounts for them washing their dirty laundry in public, everything has to be morally right and out in the open lest it casts a stain on their integrity and principles.

No one gives a shit. Some of us on here wait on tenterhooks for Starmers rare appearances, hoping he says the ‘right’ thing. The thing is, it’s only us that cares, no body else does. He doesnt need to say the right thing he needs to say the best thing.

Like others on here I do care though and would desperately like to see them get their comms right, get a few Ad Men in or something. With that in mind I’ve given it a little thought….I reckon the most effective comms strategy for Starmer would be sarcasm. The public at large doesn’t pay the slightest notice to the accuracy or correctness of anything that he says so he might as well tell jokes.

Ok, jokes from Starmer might be stretching it but simple sarcastic comments about Boris’s inability to comb his hair, or responding to things like the statues policy with “10 years? Why not the death sentence?” would be far more effective. They are the kind of sarcastic comments people are making at home sat in front of the telly, even if they themselves voted Tory. Everyone likes a bit of a laugh now and again and no one likes a clever dick.

Starmer lacking a sense of humour and his all round lack of wit are Labour’s biggest problem. Policy ‘ain’t got nutthin’ to do with it.

If you want sarcasm as a political tool then Mark Steel is your man. But bleedin ‘ell it wears thin after year after year of the same predictable stuff. He takes it to such extreme that I’m reminded about the most sarcastic priest in the world in Father Ted.

I was being sarcastic.

But really, Labour needs to reflect what people are saying at home, it’s how you connect with the electorate.

You want the electorate to be thinking “He’s saying what I’m saying”. They really aren’t in the detail or veracity of an argument, if they were then we’d still be in the EU.