If you were expecting radical reform from a middle aged ex-lawyer, then you’re either woefully naïve or haven’t been paying attention to what Labour are trying to do, or just looking at the wrong party.

I’m not expecting Sir Keith do do anything he’s not told to do. And that’s the problem. There simply isn’t any genuine leadership talent in the entire senior party. Not someone who can actually lead the country towards something better, anyway. Which is why you’ve got to get rid of the neoliberals and right wingers. Because they will only hold the party back from being anywhere near progressive. Starmer isn’t going to be able to do that. Corbyn attempted to keep the peace, by not sacking people like Mann, Hodge and Astin, but in my opinion,that was a big mistake. Hodge knows full well Corbyn isn’t actually an antisemite; that incident was staged for publicity purposes. She probably hates Corbyn because he campaigned against South African Apartheid, which as I’ve already mentioned, her family profited from (one of the reasons why she enjoys such privilege). You can’t have people like her in a modern, progressive Labour party that claims to represent all. And whilst the status quo continues, Labour are irrelevant.

Binners you should have a hard think about the way you talk about Iraq, because the way it comes across is ‘it’s ok, it’s only dead foreigners, let bygones be bygones’.

I don’t know how you’ve extrapolated that from my description of it:

‘It was an absolute catastrophe on every level’

?

And it was. An absolute cluster-**** right from day one, that has caused an entire region to unravel and descend into murderous chaos. How could anyone defend that? I’m certainly not!

My assertion is that it was a disaster made in Washington (aren’t they all?) and the UK was an irrelevance and simply along for the ride as a tiny fig-leaf to chaotic and overwhelming American aggression.

What did UK involvement actually amount to?

Should we have gone along with it? Of course not!

Would it have made any difference if we hadn’t? Of course not!

You can’t have people like her in a modern, progressive Labour party that claims to represent all

So you want a party that represents everyone, but excludes some people? How does that work then?

When I see Starmer acknowledging and addressing these perceptions, rather than sarcastiacly throw an accusation of ‘flag-shagging’ etc, I see someone who’s trying to show that the labour party isn’t sneering haughtily at them, which was definitely the impression given by a lot of those in the previous regime.

Then you see something many of us don’t. Maybe you’re only seeing what you want to see?

Labour put Starmer in charge as the feedback that they got from the last election from hundreds of thousands of people that might have/should have/would have voted for Labour was: “There is no way on earth I’m voting to put some-one like Corbyn in No 10”

If the polls are to be believed, they are now saying the same thing about Starmer.

If the polls are to be believed, they are now saying the same thing about Starmer.

Yep,  and I think @bridges’ point about the opposition front bench is a valid one; Who are they, what do they stand for? They’re almost invisible. And without deflecting too much, I doubt any opposition leader could get any traction in the shit-storm we currently find ourselves in. If you agree with the Govt’s actions, who cares? and if you oppose, you run the risk of being labeled as opportunistic, or playing politics at the time of a crisis. And for all his faults; Johnson has a sound tactic for dealing with Starmer: Ignore him. It’s working.

So you want a party that represents everyone, but excludes some people? How does that work then?

Have a think about the recent Black Lives Matter protests, and events in the US etc. Do you really think somebody who still enjoys great privilege as the result of something as abhorrent as racial apartheid, should be in a party that claims to be ‘inclusive’? Should the police recruit people who are openly members of neo-nazi groups?

Yep, and I think @bridges’ point about the opposition front bench is a valid one; Who are they, what do they stand for? They’re almost invisible. And without deflecting too much, I doubt any opposition leader could get any traction in the shit-storm we currently find ourselves in. If you agree with the Govt’s actions, who cares? and if you oppose, you run the risk of being labeled as opportunistic, or playing politics at the time of a crisis. And for all his faults; Johnson has a sound tactic for dealing with Starmer: Ignore him. It’s working.

I’d love to know what they stand for! Whilst I agree that it’s difficult to get traction, a clear vision from Starmer could’ve enthused the membership, which is critical for a party that relies on its ground game to get the vote out. At the moment, there’s a lot of people – who lent their votes to Starmer – feeling like they’ve been used.

What did UK involvement actually amount to?

179 dead british soldiers for a start. 56 dead Londoners at 7/7. 23 dead kids at the Manchester Arena. Some direct, some indirect, but all a result of a british foreign policy which allied us with a force which is seen as genocidal in the Islamic world, and largely inspired by what happened in Iraq.

Would it have made any difference if we hadn’t? Of course not!

It’s a fact that 179 service personnel would still be alive right now. It’s also highly likely that the terrorist atrocities mentioned above wouldn’t have happened, but admittedly that’s debatable. Saying ‘it would have happened anyway’ is pretty idiotic. What matters is what we did, not what might have happened if we didn’t. Blair and his supporters made a decision against the protests of almost everyone else, and those decisions had horrific consequences. Should we face up to that and seek justice or just ignore it because it’s uncomfortable?

Can we have an Iraq thread?

Can we have an Iraq thread?

There’s no need, we just need binners to stop bringing it up again and again. For as long as he does, some of us will feel obliged to respond rather than allow it to go unchallenged.

Do you really think somebody who still enjoys great privilege as the result of something as abhorrent as racial apartheid, should be in a party that claims to be ‘inclusive’?

Do I think Hodge’s profiteering from Stemcor’s involvement with the SA govt in the 70’s and 80’s was wrong? Absolutely. Do I think that chucking her out of a party for events she had little to do with over 40 years ago will solve anything wrong in the party now? No, I don’t think it will.

Perhaps chucking her out of the party will make some folk who felt that her attacks on Corbyn were wrong, happy, but I doubt it’ll solve anything.

a clear vision from Starmer could’ve enthused the membership

Yes agreed. There is lots of wordy verbiage from him on the economy and routes to recovery out of Covid, and it’s all very worthy, but you’re right It’s not been distilled down to anything approaching “Starmer-ist” or something people can pin down to a set of beliefs. It’s disappointing.

He needs some 3 word slogans. Get to 4 words or above and you have lost 80% of the voters.

The Labour party have just been trounced by the tory party, they need to learn from that and steal from it. Having high integrity or left wings ideals is not going to cut it.

Can you imagine the furore if we buy Israeli drones, the left will have a seizure

Really? Care to back this up with evidence rather than blanket claims. Bonus points if you actually manage to deal with the minor detail there have already been some purchases. Its almost like you are projecting your simplistic prejudices onto a rather large and diverse group of people.

As for getting Brits to manufacture American technology, fine by me.

So you want to pay well over the odds for something we could have brought off the shelf? Although at least for the Apaches we did get them airborne in a reasonable timeframe unlike the SF chinooks.
What is the value add you are seeing here?

Oh wow. Supposedly the ‘hard left’ are cosying up to the conservatives by having a poll done. These centrists are a bit fragile aren’t they, imagine what they’d say if people in their own party called them racists, anti-semites and terrorist sympathisers?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/apr/08/labour-cries-foul-over-union-poll-showing-tories-on-track-to-take-hartlepool

These centrists are a bit fragile aren’t they,

I guess its one of those things they are borrowing from the tories. Projecting all their failings onto others.

Or… there really are some on the Left seeking to damage the Labour leader by all means possible. Whether he’s a “centrist” or not. Either way, we can all settle in for a few decades of Tory rule, while a series of Labour leaders get undermined by people who’d rather have Conservative governments than have their “enemies” lead the Labour party. The public won’t vote for this mess, and I see no way to fix it really. Labour needs to be more than one party, but FPTP success is all about unifying disparate groups to vote for one party… as Johnson understands and looks likely to reap the benefit of, as the UKIP/Brexit/Conservative supporters all back his candidate, and likely new MP.

Do I think Hodge’s profiteering from Stemcor’s involvement with the SA govt in the 70’s and 80’s was wrong? Absolutely. Do I think that chucking her out of a party for events she had little to do with over 40 years ago will solve anything wrong in the party now? No, I don’t think it will.

Perhaps chucking her out of the party will make some folk who felt that her attacks on Corbyn were wrong, happy, but I doubt it’ll solve anything.

Problem is (and it’s a pretty big one), Hodge owes her wealth and political influence purely down to such wrongness. She’s still happy to benefit from her familial ties to that same company, through the dividends from shares she owns. Accusing others of racism is a bit rich, when you’ve profited from actual racism yourself. And that’s before we even get to her inaction on sex abuse, when she was leader of Islington council. In short; she is not a fit and proper person to hold any kind of position in politics, much less be anywhere near power (as she was when a member of Blair’s government, happily voting to bomb the shit out of brown people). You see? Hodge is part of the problem with Labour, and people like that cannot be members of a party that claims to stand against racism, inequality and injustice.

https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2019-11-20-dame-margaret-hodge-mp-a-very-british-apartheid-profiteer/

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/past-hers-margaret-hodge-might-show-bit-more-humility-10098871.html

Or… there really are some on the Left seeking to damage the Labour leader by all means possible.

By the evil deed of, checks notes, publishing a survey? My god how evil. Best they get purged from the party as traitors to the glorious leader.
Perhaps the “source” should be wondering why the poll went the way it did rather than stoking up internal battles?

Really? Care to back this up with evidence rather than blanket claims. Bonus points if you actually manage to deal with the minor detail there have already been some purchases. Its almost like you are projecting your simplistic prejudices onto a rather large and diverse group of people.

Of course the left would have seizure on this, UK buying and using Israeli technology developed in part to use on Palestinians. They already campaign to boycott peaceful products, how would they react to the UK using the technology? You’d have labour constituency motions to scrap them the moment they came into power the week after the announcement to procure.

So you want to pay well over the odds for something we could have brought off the shelf? Although at least for the Apaches we did get them airborne in a reasonable timeframe unlike the SF chinooks.
What is the value add you are seeing here?

As I understand it the UK longbow variant is different in its capabilities in terms of ISTAR

These aren’t”off the shelf” products they are made to order together with the supporting kit to keep them airborne

I personally would like to have the economic multiplier of production in the UK and the ability to keep them in the air from a UK manufacturing base. These aren’t cans of beans, they are complex systems which require a lot of support.

As the UK (much to the lefts disgust) is a well respected arms exporter the policy might not be a stupid as you state

In short; she is not a fit and proper person to hold any kind of position in politics

Again, she benefitted for something tat she no direct control over, some 30-40 years ago. Likewise How many politicians in places like Wakefield, Rochdale and so on failed to deal with pedophile rings properly, at the very least she’s apologised (multiple times) and given one of the victims £30,000.

There are many who would accuse Corbyn of similar unfitness; inviting IRA members to house of Commons, actual terrorists and their supporters, just 5 weeks after an IRA bombing that had killed 5 people, only to have Gerry Adams decline to save everyone’s embarrassment.

But then politics isn’t a knitting circle is it? My sense is that you feel Hodge should be expelled from the party for some sort of revenge for how she spoke about Corbyn. If I were Starmer looking at this, I’d rather have Hodge in the tent shouting out than the opposite.

As the UK (much to the lefts disgust) is a well respected arms exporter

“Respected” in what sense?

In that the stuff the UK makes is really, really good at killing people

Stop talking Britain down, you communist!

at the very least she’s apologised (multiple times) and given one of the victims £30,000.

Oh that’s alright then. An incredibly wealthy woman, giving away what amounts to less than half her annual commons salary (which is a fraction of her annual income), and less than the dividends she was receiving from her stake in a company that profited from racist apartheid. Absolves her of all sins. Obviously.

There are many who would accuse Corbyn of similar unfitness

Oh I’m sure there are. Your own misinformed post demonstrates that perfectly.

If I were Starmer looking at this, I’d rather have Hodge in the tent shouting out than the opposite.

You should let the BNP know. They might send you some flowers.

You should let the BNP know. They might send you some flowers.

haha, what a card you are, how the winter nights must fly by, what was that people were saying about how to attract people to the Labour Party?

Oh yeah, insult them, that’ll work every time .

Of course the left would have seizure on this

No I am interested in actual facts rather than your speculation. That you struggle to distinguish between Labour and the left tends to indicate your speculation is going to be ill informed. I notice you failed to get the bonus points for dealing with the fact the UK already purchases varied specialist military equipment from Israel.

As I understand it the UK longbow variant is different in its capabilities in terms of ISTAR

Which is a case for a different outfitting and not building them from scratch at massive cost.

These aren’t cans of beans, they are complex systems which require a lot of support.

Thank you for explaining it to me in simple terms. Your expertise in the subject is greatly appreciated. Could you please continue sharing your expert knowledge in terms of maybe dry dog food with regards to what actually happened with Westland despite the massive amounts of cash thrown their way?

As the UK (much to the lefts disgust) is a well respected arms exporter the policy might not be a stupid as you state

If you cast your mind back you might note I asked what was the end goal and gave multiple scenarios? In terms of being well respected I am not quite so sure of that. There is some good gear being produced (AI for example) but there is also a ton of absolute shite which only gets sold thanks to massive bribes or only has the UK as a user. It is those which the value add is extremely unclear.

Oh, you missed the reference. Never mind.

Really want him to succeed. I haven’t voted for quite a while now based on the fact i feel like its like choosing from eating different flavors of turd.

Anyhow, i must say i was very disappointed in his advertorial yesterday evening blowing smoke up the NHS arse. I dont want someone stood in front of a tv screen, talking all sincere about the good work the nurses are doing. We had the public clapping the NHS for weeks and then having street parties to celebrate for gods sake. How his mother was a nurse and his wife works in the NHS. How he values them and will give them everything they deserve. This is the kind of bullshit that gave us £250m per week if we vote for Brexit.

I want to hear who is getting taxed more and how they are going to balance books based on brexit, covid and all the austerity we have had. False promises with no way of backing them up just makes him a liar. Looks like i am tearing up another voting slip 🙁

how they are going to balance books based on brexit, covid and all the austerity we have had

Serious question, why do you want to balance the books?

The problem with the shit sandwich analogy is that you still get one of the options even if you don’t choose one.

Or… there really are some on the Left seeking to damage the Labour leader by all means possible.

Seriously, commissioning a survation poll is now evidence of the left’s treachery?

Rather than whining because the nasty poll didn’t say nice things why not use it as motivation to actually pull your bloody finger out and stop being so wet. Pathetic.

It’s not just a poll. It’s constant attacks on the party leader on the eve of elections. It’s sitting Labour councillors rallying behind a joke party designed purely to damage the Labour Party and with a ‘till recently Labour MP as its candidate. The thing is, when Starmer goes, the next leader gets all this as well, no matter where they sit in the political spectrum of the party. Labour will never unite, will it.

It’s not just a poll. It’s constant attacks on the party leader on the eve of elections.

Can you give examples of some of these other attacks? Stating that he isnt exactly making an impact isnt really an attack its a statement of fact.
Are you wanting nothing but praise for the glorious leader? Seems a bit, well, cultish really.

Are you wanting nothing but praise for the glorious leader?

Assuming you read what I post here, you’ll know otherwise.

Seriously, commissioning a survation poll is now evidence of the left’s treachery?

Yeah – ridiculous.

The poll was commissioned to test the popularity of things that are hugely relevant to the electorate, and particularly how out of touch Labour are getting towards the working class.

Something that the Tories will run away with if unchecked.

Labour will not get anywhere without the Left. This is not going into heads of certain people.

It’s constant attacks on the party leader on the eve of elections

I’m not seeing that, what are these constant attacks?

I’m not seeing that, what are these constant attacks?

Really?!? Lucky you.

Labour will not get anywhere without the Left.

I agree 100%

Keep that thought process unwinding…

I want to hear who is getting taxed more and how they are going to balance books

Balanced books are a nonsense from a governmental point of view. Government spends into the economy the private sector thrives.

Government balances the books the economy contracts as money is taken out of circulation. (Providing inflation is not too high. We’re still at 0.7%. Target of 2%)

The issue is the Tories will get away with spending but Labour will be slammed. This is why the narrative should be a balanced economy not balanced books. (I.e full employment, Job, guarantee, massive infrastructure spending etc).

binners
Member
your air of superiority

Heal thyself!