I've had a bit of a play around with oils and changing the oil in the damping cartridge seems to have very little effect. I tried 2.5wt and it didn't improve things. I'm now using 7.5wt Fox float oil and there is very little difference to the stock oil.
Interestingly I removed the damping cartridge and then have a bit of a ride on it and the "stiction" was still there. Two possible explanations I reckon. It could be that the 80wt oil in the air cartridge is providing some compression damping. In which case some thinner stuff in there would help. Secondly it simply could be the fact that they are grease lubed lowers. Removing the grease and replacing with oil would help here. The lower bolts may need seals to stop oil weeping out but I don't see any reason why this shouldn't work.
When I've tried these I'll let you know. At the moment I'm a bit fed up of stripping and fannying so will leave it a few weeks!

…of stripping and fannying so…

Whatever you do in your own time is your business…. 😯

😉

The lowers will hold oil fine I reckon – I've used oil in the lowers of non-oil bath forks for years and they've never leaked to any noticeable degree.

I'm currently looking at affordable 29er suspension fork options and just found this thread (nice review BTW). I'm a tad heavier than clubber at just under 18stone, I've been looking at the Epicons and the Toras for a stop-gap solution until I can find a deal on a set of rebas with a 20mm maxle. There's an offer on 2010 Tora SL for just under £200 new and slightly older Tora 318s seem to be going on ebay for under £100 (I've read about the difference in performance between the non motion control damped SL and the 318 with MoCo, if I get the SL I would also get a MoCo cartridge to upgrade it). Has anyone here had both of these forks? Any comparisons? Are the Suntours still holding up OK?

My Suntours are still fine. Haven't tried the Toras so can't compare to them.

I've been looking at the Epicons and the Toras for a stop-gap solution until I can find a deal on a set of rebas with a 20mm maxle.

what about Drakes?
Click for link to Biketart

I got some minutes from biketart (good service by the way) and they work nice – drakes seem to the same but heavier

i've had 318 tora with motion control. very good, feel as good as rebas, stiffer than the earlier rebas but a bit heavy. sold mine on ebay (£100) just because of the weight but i couldn't really fault them otherwise.

Thanks for the replies…I thought about the Minutes but some negative reviews and lack of discounts put me off them initially, do you have the 20mm axle version or QR? The price offered by biketart makes them look more attractive though… I had overlooked the drakes, they definitely seem worth considering. These are most likely going on a Inbred 29er BTW. On-one said stock is due in about 4-6 weeks so I'm rounding up the extra bits and preparing to strip my 26er in the meantime. It's a shame the Swift is specced for an 80mm fork(I was hoping for something that could take 100-120mm), they have XL in stock at the moment. 😐 Keavo, what did you replace the Tora with if you don't mind me asking?

awesom-o – Member
…It's a shame the Swift is specced for an 80mm fork(I was hoping for something that could take 100-120mm), they have XL in stock at the moment.

Think that the Swift is actually specced for a 100mm fork 😕

It's spec'd for 80mm but works perfectly at 100 (read my review at the start!)

I'm running the Epicons on an XL SS Inbred and they have been fine so far. I've also had the Tora's (now sold) and have a Reba Sl and a Maxle Team on my HT and FS. The reverse arch on Manitou always puts me off although the Drake is suppossed to be a good budget fork.

To be honest they are all pretty good forks but the Epicons seem better than the Tora's were and are around 300g lighter (with the bonus of bolt thru).

One thing to bear in mind is that if you are heavy and want to run big rotors, the Suntours are only rated to 185mm, whereas the Rebas can run 200mm.

Edit – CRC are showing that they'll have the new Recon 29er fork in around 2-3 weeks. £315. May be worth a punt?

I fitted some 80mm Minutes to my xl swift, they had a shorter axle to crown dimension that the swift steel fork (only a fraction) but that was static and thus not taking sag into the equation, so 100mm would be fine – Sam states designed for 80-100mm on his webiste. I went for QR Minutes, did not want to build up a new wheel / change hub and they seem stiff enough and for £355 they are a deal compared to reba and fox

Apologies, I didn't mean to hijack this thread… It seems MrTall has used pretty much all the forks I'm considering, it's good to hear first-hand feedback. With my budget I can either get a ~£400 frame and ~£200 forks or vice-versa (the cheaper of the two will be upgraded in the next 6 months or so). I was fairly well set on an Inbred but just spotted the Mythic (Banshee) Paradox frame…very nice! There's far too many options these days 😯 I've been regularly checking the big sites like CRC for new models etc…I think there's an error with the spec for the Recon Tk Gold, if you compare it to the SRAM site, they have it specced with Turnkey damping instead of MoCo, basically the spec on the SRAM site looks like the old Tora 302/SL spec will aluminium stanchions. Thanks anyway though.

The weight seems to be the common complaint with the Toras, I've been running reba race and fox 32 talas on my 26er (the forks get swapped between mine and my wifes bike every few months if I'm bored) so I guess even though I'm heavy I'm used to a lighter front end, do you really feel the extra weight of the Toras?

The heavier Tora's were a bit noticeable but to be honest not too disasterous. I seem to recall that they were around 2300g but then i'm no race whippet and neither are you so in reality, an extra couple of hundred grams shouldn't make a massive difference.

You're welcome to test any of them if you live anywhere near the midlands (assuming you're tall enough to ride mahooosive bikes).

Thanks for the info and the kind offer, I'm 6'4 so hopefully tall enough 🙂 but live in Kent, the next time I'm up your way I'd be very tempted to take you up on your offer. (My 26er is a 22" frame BTW)

I agree about the fork weight, any of the above suggested forks would probably be fine for me, I noticed one major difference between my fox and reba in the small bump performance. The negative air on the reba really makes a difference. I'm not expecting stellar performance for a bargain price but I wanted to get something that wouldn't feel too harsh when pumped up to high psi for my weight. I've read a lot of good reviews on the Tora from 'clydes' so that kind of swayed me that way…

Thanks rootes1, I just saw another thread where Sam commented "Works great with a 100 – 120mm fork. " so I guess my inital concern was unfounded. (This thread: http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/steel-29er-frame-whats-out-there )

If any of you had to pick one bike for regular commuting through bridle paths etc, a bit of trail and single track with the occasional trip to the lakes…which order would you rate the Inbred, Swift and Paradox(each running 100-120mm forks)? (I realise 2 are in a similar price point and one is much cheaper). Or if you have any other suggestions?

i replaced the tora with a reba. i allready had a reba on another bike and felt the weight of the tora when riding the bike with it on. i would agree that that the weight is not a disaster but i'm fussy, and got it into my head that a reba was better.
the lighter weight was the most noticeable difference between the two forks. the reba is more tuneable due to the independant +/- air and floodgate but the toras solo air works as well for me (equalises +/- automatically) and i rarely adjust the floodgate. toras are good, if you can get a deal on one i doubt you'd be dissappionted with it.
i've just put a q/r 120mm 2010 minute on my salsa big mama but have't had the chance to really test it yet. first impressions suggest it will be excellent and i think the drakes are probably very similar.
i think the paradox with a 120mm fork might be more fun on your occasional trips to the lakes. but considering all your needs i'd go for a swift with 100mm fork.

Keavo, nice to see another Big Mama owner out there. I love mine, running it with a 120mm Maxle Reba and it's ace.

Word of warning though – check the bottom bolt which attatches the rear shock to the frame – there seems to be a problem with it being slightly the wrong size so play develops (noticeable when picking the bike up by the saddle). It affected mine and also the bike that appeared in the UK bike reviews (i chatted with the owner on the Salsa stand at MM) but is easily fixed by putting washers either side and a bit of threadlock. Wished i'd known this before i bought a new bushing and got it fitted only to find it made no difference…….

Awesom-o, i have a mate who has a Paradox and was very happy with it, I'm very happy with my Inbred and everyone says good things about the Swifts so it's whichever one floats your boat really (or is available in XL without waiting forever).

If you do make it to the midlands, i have 3 29ers to try, a 21" Inbred with Epicon 100mm, Spesh Rockhopper 23" with 80mm Reba SL's and a 22" Salsa Big Mama with 120 Maxle Reba's. I'm 6'7" but i'm sure i could drop the saddles a bit for a shorty like you….. 😉

See the problem with that review is that i now want one again 🙄

Sorry about that 😉

100!

Doesn't count if you make the 100th post yourself 🙄

cheers, i'll keep an eye on that. its o.k. so far.

thanks keavo, I'm concerned that I might share your views on the reba/tora debate, I'm a bit fussy as well and once I get something in my head I know I'll never be happy with the 'lesser' option. (and the more weight I lose the nicer my 26er rebas feel). Surely the 2010 Minutes will have to be marked down to clear soon if the 2011s are on the way? CRC are offering a whopping 5% off the 20mm axle version at the moment 😕

MrTall, I might be coming up midlands way in the next month or two for work, not sure if I'll have time but wouldn't mind even a quick peak at your bikes if the offer still stands. That's if the seatposts can be lowered enough to accomodate my short stature 🙂

I phoned Freeborn today, the have no stock of the Paradox (1 medium in the UK apparently) but are expecting more next month.

I also phoned on-one, they put me through to 'Stevo' the frame designer, he was very helpful and described some changes made to the new Inbred 29er. Nothing too major except they're giving the option to use some sort of taper fit bolts instead of the usual tensioner lugs on the rear (he said you can still use the regular lugs if you like). The cabling will be moved from the top tube to the down tube using a split cabling system and the front mech will be bottom pull. They also beefed up the joint between the top tube and the head tube (when I asked his opinion on this frame's suitabily for heavy riders he said the few failures they've had were at this section so they beefed it up a bit on the new model) there's probably more that I don't recall but he said they're posting an article on their site soon and will be taking pre-orders. He said the shipment is on its way and should land in 4-6 weeks.

I saw a post from about 6 months ago where 'Sam' from Singular offered someone a deal on an XL swift frame saying he wanted to move his remaining stock. clubber, did you ask if they could do a deal? The swift looks lovely but the price difference is making me lean towards the Inbred…

the 120mm q/r minute is cheap at £250. i expect its because most people will be wanting the 20mm axle. i'm not so heavy, i don't think its a big deal but i'll find out soon enough.
if they discount the 100mm i might well replace my reba's with a minute based on initial testing.

Awesom – suggest you drop Sam an email and talk to him. He's a top bloke.

The Inbred should not be run with more than 100mm (i think) and mine definitely felt sharper with the shorter rigid carbon forks before i swapped to the Suntours. I reckon 120mm on it would lift the front too much.

If you make it to the midlands, let me know and you'd be welcome to throw a leg over any of the bikes – the last bloke off STW who popped round to test the bigger bikes was 6'9" and 22 stone and he was fine on them, so you at 18st should be fine. My email is in my profile if you make it this way. I'm 10 miles south of Brum, near Jnc 4 M5 & Jnc 1 M42.

And i second clubbers call to email Sam – he is very helpful and will sort you out if you choose the Singular.

Nice reviews just a point if your new to 29'

Rigid forks on a 29er swift with a nice 2.3 or 2.4 tire can deal with an awful lot more than you might expect and especially more than a 26"

I contacted Sam today, he got straight back to me offering a deal on a swift without the forks, £350 delivered, what do you think? I've got a strange feeling I'll be ordering one on monday…I must admit the swift wasn't love at first sight for me but the more I look at it the more I like it, I'm guessing it looks much nicer in the flesh too. I still like the look of the Paradox frame but even if they stay at the discounted £459 it might be stretching the budget a tad too far and I'll want to wrap it in cotton wool rather than ride it. Can someone just make this decision for me? It's too hard! 😯

get the swift. decision made:-) put some 80-100mm forks on it. drakes if you want keep the cost down.

i run 100mm drakes on my xl swift…………….very nice to.
forks are ok even with my bulk stressing them. 8)

I guess that's that then, thanks keavo 🙂 Forks will probably be some used Tora 318s at 100mm, failing that probably some drakes (or minutes if I can liquidate some other assets in time). Other finishing kit is coming across from my 26er…I'm having a set of wheels built, the rear is going to be a 36 spoke hope pro 2 with steel freehub laced to a halo freedom disc rim. The front will be a pro 2 32 spoke laced to the same rim. Anyone running a similar setup?

theres some used toras on ebay now. they look like the pair i sold on ebay about 12-18 months ago.

were they still ok when you sold them?

toras are taller than rebas for the same travel, by about 10mm. a 100mm tora is nearly 520mm axle-crown. thats my own measurement on older 318 toras. you can change them between 80mm and 100mm with the travel spacer, its a 15 minute job.

not 100% sure they are my old pair but they were fine, just heavy as stated.

I'll keep an eye on them, they've still got a way to go so something else will probably come up in the meantime..there's also a set of marzocchi 44 tst2 forks on there but I've read so many bad things about the tst2 failing (among other issues) I'm very reluctant…

Further follow up on the fork.

I opened them up and they were still nice and clean inside despite some pretty muddy rides. I've added oil to the lowers (remove bolts, knock out of the lowers and pour oil in) to act as a semi-oil bath – it's certainly stayed in there (eg not leaked) and will hopefully ensure it stays well lubricated.

One negative though – after the aforementioned muddy rides and a couple of weeks or so of not being used, the 15mm axle had corroded slightly in the 'dropouts' which meant having to use a hammer to remove it – good thing it didn't happen on the trail… I've now cleaned it up and lubed it so don't think it'll happen again but it's worth making sure you lube the axle if you haven't.

The chrome on my axle was pretty rusty the last time I removed it, I gave the ends of the QR a good lube before fitting and they have been fine.

Clubber – How much oil and what weight of oil did you put in the lowers? Did you clean the grease out first?

Has anyone found a suitable 15mm ID spacer yet? I have fashioned a Dibber from a piece of B&Q tubing which allows me to push the QR out, but would be nice if I didn't need to use it.

I didn't measure it but guessing about 10ml in each side – I think I might add more though to make about 20ml each side. Just whatever I had spare – 5wt IIRC – It won't really matter though as you're just using it to lubricate rather than damp. I guess if it was too thick though it'd tend to just sit at the bottom of the fork whereas I reckon thinner stuff (eg 5wt) is likely to get splashed around and hopefully lube better. I wiped off excess grease but didn't got to any great effort to get rid of it.

I'll get an internal spacer made up at work when I can be bothered but TBH the 'dibber' works well enough at the mo.

Finally got round to stripping the lowers on my Epicons and putting oil in there instead of the nasty grease. The lowers had a good amount of water in there which shows how poor the stock seals are too. I tried to fit some Rockshox Reba wiper seals but that was a non starter. After much cursing and trimming with a craft knife i gave it up as a job from hell. The Rockshox seals are bigger than the Suntour ones…. Does anyone know if Fox seals are the same size as RS ones? I'll try a set of Fox ones if someone can send me an old set?

I was impressed with the quality of the bushes and stanchions. Very similar to Rockshox….

I've put 10mm of Fox float oil in each leg at the bottom and a couple of ml in the top around the (rather shady) foam rings. I'd suggest getting some new foam rings from Rockshox to replace the lame Suntour ones. I'll be making my own with superglue and a sheet of foam!

In summary they feel great now and should stay that way instead of gradually seizing up. Since CRC have now reduced them to £168,I wouldn't hesitate in buying them again. They make all Rockshox forks look very overpriced. If only I could find some decent seals that fit, they would be sweet!