Of course I agree that location counts. And by the sea on a fat-bike may well be where i’ll soon scuttle off to – yet my rant is generous…I am seriously concerned about road safety for everyone, especially for ‘other’ road users, and cities/urban locations have many cyclists/pedestrians. Do we really want a ‘car is king and f*** the rest’ attitude in the UK?

It’s not only selfish/careless car/truck drivers that can be so, but their behaviour is the most impactful, along with a headlong rush to increased traffic and a general sense that ‘roads are for cars’. I ride less on the roads now than I ever have for the reasons mentioned.

And yes, increased age brings about increased sense of mortality. But I’ll argue that it can also bring about the mindfulness at some point to step back from the situation and take an honest look at what is happening.

There does seem to be a general selfish/’me-me-me’ paradigm shift in society, non-more evident than on our roads – as hard as I try to square it away by comparing self to dads of yore who argue that ‘it wasn’t like this in my day’. Well, it wasn’t like this in my day…just like my dad says about football violence. But do we ever get to the point that they maybe had a point?

Frankly, I’m sooooo looking forward to the day driverless cars are mandatory…

I’ve been road cycling since Mid February and have had some good rides and some awful ones. I got into a confrontation the other day after a driver side swiped me trying to force his way through. Apperantly I should of been going faster or moved over so he could get through.

I called him a knob so he got out of his car and tried to push me off. I shoved him to the floor and told him to do one. I’m really scared of getting myself into trouble because I will not hesitate to punch someone who endangers my life.

It really has put me off and I’m considering selling the bike and sticking to my Mtb. I drive and also ride a motorbike so I’m no stranger to awful driving but compared to the motorbike I feel a lot more vulnerable.

Really need to sit down and think is it really worth the aggro.

Roads are dangerous, and getting more so because there are more vehicles using them. If you don’t like it stop riding a bike on them is the best answer.

Well just to qualify my post earlier..

I’m a back lanes basher on the roadie, you know the type single one track lanes that kinda thing. Rarely do I use A roads and try to keep B roads to a minimum too.
But..
Since before Xmas when the weather turned nasty and the lanes filled up with mud and Ice and 40 grades of Flint my route planning revolved around B roads and bashing them. Now on the whole that’s been fine, by and large they’ve been quiet and a helluva lot cleaner and swoopier than what I normally ride. But with this comes cars, B roads by nature are only slightly wider than lanes and when cars or farm trucks or busses or tractors overtake there is bearly any room for me, so I’ve adopted the caution of stopping dead, getting out of the way. Now this has met with approval of other road users who on the whole have either waved or thanked me for getting out of the way, no good for my Strava times
😆 but hey.. So now I’ve 12 routes that by and large are quiet B lanes which are proving to be consistent in others use and cleanliness.
Now however it’s drying up and I’ll now revert back to the single track lanes I love, barely a tractor or fuel lorry seen on my rides, occasional cars or busted land rovers but nothing else and all travelling at max 20mph thereabouts.
We’ve got some fast A roads here, I’m not saying it’s suicide if you go on them but even with my vast experiance I only use them in emergencies or very short sections to get back into the lanes.

Hampshire is blessed with these single track lanes, we’ve a myriad criss crossing the county and I’m greatfull I live down this way because of them, popping over into West Sussex means B roads and fewer lanes which is a shame because that’s a lovely county too but far busier for riding.. Going west into Dorset is similar to Hampshire so I ride a lot there too.

But have to say London ain’t that bad IMO. Most vehicles are travelling slowly in the city, come out a bit though and it’s bloody awful. Maybe I’ve gotten used to riding in Town.

Yorkshire bloody good though, in fact it’s damn fine place to ride if you stay out of Leeds ! So when i ride up there I’ve got another myriad of routes I use that barely interact with other vehicles.

It’s easy for me to say but improve the quality of your riding by choosing less used roads. 😐

I don’t and wont ride a road bike because of the complete disregard shown for cyclists around here (Peak District / Sheffield).

When a young lad is knocked off an injured and is told by the woman passenger that the blood is upsetting the kids in the car and she doesn’t want them to be late for school then I think we have reached a tipping point. Complete lack of empathy that he is someone else’s 19 year old kid.

I know it annoys the TG fans but that overbearing arse Clarkson’s rants against cyclists does have an effect on attitudes.

As an ex-biker I gave up after the 4th t-bone SMIDSY at a junction. If people can’t see me on a big bike with headlight on and a dayglo jockstrap, what chance has a cyclist?

When I become ‘Dear Leader’ anyone wanting to learn to drive must have evidence that they have ridden a bike for 12 months beforehand and passed a cycling test. Then for 12 months after they must do a probationary period on a shittly little scooter so they can see just how vulnerable 2 wheel users really are. If will also help them understand road conditions and why both bikes and cyclists will move around potholes and obstructions in the road and not ride in the crap in the gutter.

IMO as long as driving is perceived as a right rather than a privilege, then nothing will change – longer and permanent bans, cars confiscated and crushed, massive fines, lots of cameras – not speeding but for RLJ, hatched box infringement, monitoring junctions.

Possible public floggings and stoning of Audi drivers just because. 😀

Lost count of how many times ive seen a csr coming from the other way on a bend and thinking ‘if there’d been a cyclist in front he’d be dead now.

@Bikebouy.

I was driving east on the A303 on Thurs lunchtime. At Bullington cross there were 2 cyclists riding down the 303 toward Andover , crossing the on slip from the A34.

Perfectly legal and well within their rights as road users , but you so wouldn’t do it. The odds of a collision at that junction would be terrible. Maybe even up around 1 in 10 . Absolute madness .

It is a mind set thing. The lad I work with is adament the roads are for cars and cyclists get to use roads because motorists pay for them through car tax.
He is of the beleif that if you hit a cyclist / walker you wont ever be prosecuted as they should not be on the road and its not their right of way .

We have words on many occaisions when we are out and he is driving as he is a risk taker , and I think alot of bad driving is linked to this.

It could be a mixture of ‘It doesnt matter , they shouldn’t be on the road anyway , and if I hit them nothing will come of it ‘ . Coupled with a ” I live a boring sedentary , oppressed life where I am told what to do at home and at work. When I am behind the wheel of MY car I am in charge. I will overtake this bike at that junction . I am in control. I am making the big decisions now. I need the thrill of a potential head on collisionas my life is so controlled that feeding bread to ducks with Jr doesnt float my boat anymore”

IMO.

But have to say London ain’t that bad IMO. Most vehicles are travelling slowly in the city, come out a bit though and it’s bloody awful. Maybe I’ve gotten used to riding in Town.

Yorkshire bloody good though, in fact it’s damn fine place to ride if you stay out of Leeds ! So when i ride up there I’ve got another myriad of routes I use that barely interact with other vehicles.

I’ve found Yorkshire and London both significantly better than Nottingham. Exactly as you say, London tends to be slower in the centre. There are few cyclists in Nottingham so drivers tended to act more entitled, and the Jubilee Roundabout (fed by fast roads, and most of the entrances climb slightly onto it) is way worse than Elephant and Castle.

According to the map linked above the bit of Yorkshire I’m in is every bit as bad as Notts for points, but I guess the main roads are wider and traffic density lower.

Ya know, I think singletrackmind may well have hit the nail on the head.

A proliferation of mindless, soulless jobs devoid of decisions will create a raft of those desperate to take every chance they see to show the world they are in charge and important.

We need new legislation.

I know it annoys the TG fans

MTBer TG fans? They take their ‘I’m higher on the food chain’ rage out on walkers because walkers are their version of cyclists. Dog walkers OTOH are their version of road club cyclists 😉

We need new legislation.

Yes! Presumed liability for larger vehicles and a minimum passing gap law – maybe 1.5m?

But more importantly we need some hard-hitting public information adverts for drivers about cyclists.

At least Top Gear getting pulled is a start.

Annnnd don’t think for one minute that I’m immune to abuse by Drivers (of what ever vehicle) it’s hard to quantify because I don’t log them.. 😐

There is a small road out of Hamble heading towards Netley, just a small two lane normal B road in and out of two villages. It’s busy because it’s the only one and there is an industrial estate too (where the RYA are) well it’s part of the NCN2 and I use it a lot to get into Sotty to catch the ferries if I’m going that way.
Well… The other day whilst riding on the road and approaching a junction that a car wanted to cross (turn right across my ROW) into another road some twunt shouted “oi use the bike lane you ****” Well I was on the road and there isn’t a bike lane the NCN2 is on the road… So I turned around, followed the car and called him an ignorant ****, he didn’t expect that… 😆
Now I don’t normally do this kind of thing, I’m immune to abuse, immune to the stupidity of drivers and yet I have to say IME 99.8% of road users are really kind and considerate, but it just takes one incident like I had to tarnish your view of all drivers.
Annnnd yet to counter that incident, I was riding in the New Forest on the CX’er yesterday. Hacking some gravel and generally having a right old hoot, now I missed a turn on the Garmin and stopped and a very lovely lady stopped in her car and asked if I was alright, asked if I need help or directions… Yeah I know a nice New Forester helping a cyclist !!
So you see, I don’t think we’re that bad off, we are vulnerable we know that, but I think not all drivers are morons. Some act like it but I think they act like morons whether in a car or not.
😆

The Dutch attitude only changed after mass protests against deaths and injuries on the roads caused by car drivers.

OP if you are indeed a malvern rider that’s a shame you’ve got to this stage as the road riding round here is amazing especially on a day like this.

I got knocked off at the roundabout heading to Leominster on the A417 (rural a road) a few years back and bloody scary it was too. Luckily nothing more than bumps and grazes for me but made sure the old driver paid for absolutely everything to be replaced new.

Since then I always ride with front and rear flashers even on bright days. But of a comfort blanket rather thank thinking it’s really going to help against a driver on his Mobil 😕

I don’t think we’re that bad off,

The UK having nearly double the Dutch KSI figures doesn’t feel not ‘bad off’ to me.

I don’t have any problems except one….
I ride close to the kerb, but im bullish (can you be passive assertive?.
I still ride like that because its only us cyclists that seem to know the rules.
However im polite and manouvre and signal always and well in advance. I always hold up a hand to any car I think I might be holding up.
My main problems come in my own town and that is purely down to all the speed reduction furniture in place, its beat the cyclist to the next hump or 20mph limit.
And don’t forget you suffer the same fools and acts if not more when you are driving.

I remember thinking a couple of years back, that with more people taking up cycling, supposedly due to the TDF wins and the Olympics, that life would get better for the cyclist on the road. My thought was that the more people riding would lead to an increase in drivers who cycle, resulting in greater “tolerance”.

From my experience recently, my assumption was wrong. The increase in cyclists on the road, has just made people less patient, because they come across more “bloody cyclists holding me up”.

Just recently I almost got taken out at a roundabout, and a couple of weeks back whilst driving, I got flashed by the car behind, because I was waiting for, what I considered, a safe time to overtake a lady on a bike. I must have added 4 or 5 seconds onto his journey at most.

We do need public information films. People are becoming less, not more tolerant of cyclists, or anything that gets in their way when they’re driving their car.

I seem to live in a perfect storm of bad conditions on the South Coast. It’s incredibly crowded and there’s very few roads because it’s either sea or National Park. There’s 2 types of drivers that scare me the worst. Females under 25 seem to regard driving as secondary to texting and are generally totally unaware of their surroundings. The old, had to actually jump off my bike twice on Wednesday, both times drivers were 80+ and had not the slightest inkling I was there. One guy was annoyed that I was there when I finally got his attention and waved me out the way.

It is a mind set thing. The lad I work with is adament the roads are for cars and cyclists get to use roads because motorists pay for them through car tax.
He is of the beleif that if you hit a cyclist / walker you wont ever be prosecuted as they should not be on the road and its not their right of way .

^This. I would dearly love to see large scale research on UK driver attitudes to cyclists, by age group. Questions such as:

What is VED?

Do cyclists pay to use the road?

Which vehicle requires permission to use the roads and which vehicle has a right?

Which cyclist is wrongly positioned? (show graphics)

Indicate with a mark. How closely is it safe to pass this cyclist? (Different instances shown)

I remember thinking a couple of years back, that with more people taking up cycling, supposedly due to the TDF wins and the Olympics, that life would get better for the cyclist on the road.

‘Smeed’s Law’ – ie road user safety in numbers?

You mention two accidents, both 20 years ago. So the evidence doesn’t suggest that your journeys are any less safe than they ever were. I’m not aware of any statistics showing accident per mile ridden increasing either (although maybe I’m just not looking hard enough). Not saying you are wrong but could it be your perception of risk that has changed rather than the risk itself? I find the more crowded roads these days more annoying (and hence ride off road more these days) but I’m not sure they are any less safe. More traffic generally means lower traffic speed.

@tenfoot. Its swings and roundabouts. Everyone knows a cyclist so that’s good. But the sheer numbers now of clueless cyclists on the road, not good.
Id not take all this to heart, driving is just as bad. We just need to keep on getting the numbers up, keep on setting a good example (which many in my club don’t)
And basically chin up.

Too much texting / FB-ing whilst driving IMO. Driverless cars now, please !

You mention two accidents, both 20 years ago. So the evidence doesn’t suggest that your journeys are any less safe than they ever were

I see what you’re saying, and i do think of this. Let me put it into perspective. My two collisions to date:

1. was exceptional circumstances with only two road users present (self and the driver who slammed into me from behind). Ice and bad decision (she braked on a hill seeing me, then slid downhill, wheels locked, down camber into the back of me

2. I was commuting, travelling in left lane around Peartree Island in Dudley in the rush hour. A busy island. Flat loader passed close, caught me or my bike not sure, which dragged me and pulled me down hard into the road behind him. Gravel rash both hands quick A&E job – luckily not hit by other car behind me.

Since that accident I avoid cycling around busy islands in rush hour. Prefer to get off and cross by foot. That was the only extra caution i added to my riding skill box. I never used to feel especially vulnerable on roads.

Since then, not only has the volume of traffic increased, but so have my levels of defensive riding in response to what I perceive* to be a general increase in corner-cutting, not looking,not indicating, a lack of Highway Code knowledge, txting, speed passes etc. No, I haven’t been hit, but yes the near-misses and very near misses have increased to the point where I as a result now ride less often and less places than I would like. It could be just that Malvern is full of careless/elderly drivers. Wish it was true, but others here seem to have similar concerns/experience.

I could also be me ‘just getting older’ and more wary/falsely conscious (?) of falling standards in courtesy, due care and respect. Grumpy middle aged man meme. But that entails throwing all of my experiences and observations – actions and reactions in the bin simply on account of being in my forties? Seems like a lazy angle to take. I honestly don’t remember half as many near-misses and I used to cycle much more than I do now. IMO A-roads are getting mental. Used to cycle the entire A458 with no worries. I wouldn’t even attempt it today. Neither the A449, I just do small sections and then nip off down lanes. Negative attitudes towards bicycles on roads are whipped up into a frenzy by the rags these days. Criminally so. This attitude wasn’t present when I were a kid! Cyclists on roads were just a curio. Considered kids stuff mostly, and the odd old Dawes Gala mounted tourers or weirdie commuters.

Pedlad – we do a quick 14 miler once a week – night time, mostly lanes and B class, just the short Storridge section on the Hereford- Worcs A road is completed on not-ideal footpath as have a few misses there. As someone else said, when driving and you watch the drivers in front approach ‘fast’ (sic) rural bends or crests, yr heart is in yr mouth as a cyclist, imagining a cyclist just around the corner/over the hill.

* Personal changes in perception possible and noted.

You mention the young lad hit by the van. I think incidents like that can make you take stock of the situation you put yourself in if you regularly ride a busy A road etc.

I can head into town and have every other car get within an uncomfortable proximity whereas if I head northward and onto the back roads nearly every car passes at a safe distance.

Short tale : I decided to be a pedestrian instead of cyclist yesterday and walked into town. On my way I spotted the odd cyclist and one in particular stood out. A roadie riding about a metre from the curb with a car (who’ll be Bluey for this tale) approaching from behind, cars continually coming from the other direction. I had a good look at Bluey as he decided to pass the cyclist without really decelerating – his focus wasn’t on the cyclist at all, he was simply trying to avoid hitting the cars coming from the opposite direction. The cyclist sort of flinched and shuffled over a bit. From my perspective it wasn’t as close as it feels when it happens but it left no room for maneuvering around debris or the myriad potholes along that stretch. I felt for the guy but was stunned at the lack of care demonstrated by Bluey. I know Bluey and will be having a chat when we inevitably meet in the future.

I have a feeling cyclists are getting stigmatised, for what reasons I can only guess. It’s distressing and similar to you, OP, I have cycled for over thirty years on the roads and it’s definitely getting worse. I’m seriously considering giving up the busy commuting type A roads and just doing the stuff where there’s less traffic.

My ride this morning was relatively ok, but even so in two hours I had a woman barging past into oncoming traffic to run some lights, some daft old git crawling past really, unnecessarily close on a wide empty road, and a white van man overtake less than a foot off my bars when I was doing > 40mph on a blind bend, which scared me a lot. That’s perfectly normal, on relatively quiet roads, early on a weekend morning. Head out in rush hour and the treatment gets significantly worse.

It’s not just unpleasant on the bike, either. I heartily dislike my very short car commute, because there’s always someone tailgating me for having the audacity to obey the speed limit, or some appalling driven skip-lorry bullying its way up tiny country lanes at ridiculous speeds, or oblivious school-run muppets honking their horns at each other whilst clogging everything up so their fat kids can avoid walking the 1/4 mile back home. Using British roads is generally horrible, and I’m always amazed at the number of people who say they enjoy driving, because in my experience it’s almost invariably a shitty, boring, irritating activity.

The state of UK driving is utterly depressing, and frankly I despair. I don’t think anything that can be done will make any difference, and I don’t think anything that would really help make it better will ever be done because most people see driving however the **** they like as a god-given right.

oldgit -I don’t have any problems except one….

I ride close to the kerb, but im bullish (can you be passive assertive?.

Likewise. I like ‘passive assertive’ 🙂

because its only us cyclists that seem to know the rules.

If that’s ‘only one problem’ then (discounting aggressive/impatient drivers) what could be worse?!!!

Oh yeah, those ‘cyclists’ who don’t know the rules either. A ‘perfect storm.’

Just got back from a 90Km ride in the Dales and no real problems for the entire ride, certainly no aggression, indeed a couple of cars stopped to let me pass when technically it was their right of way. Apart from the road between Skipton and Threshfield it was pretty quiet traffic wise though.

What I did notice was that even on a long open straight with no traffic coming in the opposite direction a good 50% of cars passed closer than I was happy with (by which I mean I could have reached out and tapped on the bodywork). I don’t think it’s deliberately aggressive just that the drivers don’t know what “a gap the width of a car” means so just pull out a bit and sneak past.

However it’s not just motorists – I was following another cyclist for about a mile and he didn’t look behind him once so he’d no idea what, if anything, was approaching him from behind. I’ve seen lots of cyclists like that. You need to be regularly checking behind you – every ten seconds or so – the same as when driving a car.

I passed my driving test in 1977 and the volume of cars on the road since then has more than doubled. The reality of driving in the UK today is that you will spend significant periods of time in queues or at lights or behind slow vehicles. However the perceived delays aren’t as great as you might think: a very early start and I can drive up the A65 towards the Lakes and get a clear run. Sticking religiously to the speed limits (I’ve been pulled on the A65 😳 ) it takes me exactly one hour to get to the M6/A65 junction. Leaving later and being in traffic and I get there in 65mins. Just five minutes difference yet people will get worked up about it.

As for regional differences, I’ve found the drivers in the Skipton – Leeds – Bradford area to be significantly worse than those over the border in Lancashire.

I’m a daily cycle commuter in Sheffield.

Most near incidents for me have been around Victoria Quay which is in the vicinity of several call centres and is an alternative route out to the M1 avoiding the Parkway. Always drivers unaware of where cyclists might join the road, motorists jumping red lights or motorists unhappy that I’m forced to deny them space to pass due to parked cars (although I’m usually so close to 30 at this point they shouldn’t really need to pass and certainly not at the speed they try to). I’d echo Roger’s comments about the woman who told the 17yo her boyfriend had just left waiting for an ambulance that his bleeding was upsetting her kids and he was making them late before leaving the scene.

We have the usual cycle lanes that disappear when they’d help, glass and metal scrap all over the road edge, section of NCN6 that a local business gates access to as it suits due to having an insecure perimeter wall (cheaper to lock it up than bring their premesis up to scratch) and all the rest of it. Sheffield also has a totally illogical mix of one way streets that are reverse signed to indicate they are two way for cyclists. This winds drivers up as they don’t see the sign the cyclist does. Not all one way streets here are so signed though.

I hardly see any other cyclists who actually stop at junctions or obey red lights, although they’re usually covered in hi vis, so that’s OK. I’m not going to argue that this makes all the driver behaviour fine, but as a group we need to sort out our own attitude to legal Road use if we’re going to start preaching.

Well I’ve just come back from 90k’s around the New Forest on a route I use a lot.
Starts at Hythe then over the forest North then South to B’mth seafront, then East again covering the upper Mid and Top of the Forest.. It’s a great route, lots of bumps, windy tops and fairly smooth roads, forest covered lanes and open moors.
The route takes in a healthy mix of B roads and single track lanes and today it was fabulous, few cars, few horses, few people with Dogs and a few other cyclists.. Nothing happened, no car angst, no mad overtaking, no slicing me up, no random car manoeuvres, nothing but me and the spin of my Legs.

So there are days like this, it’s a shame we tend to only focus on the rides that include a bit of angst rather than the rides that just make you breath a lot and put a sting in your legs.

Great ride. 8)

Funny that bikebuoy, I was out in the northern NF earlier and had a similar day – most noticeable thing about the driving was that it was considerate

I wonder if it was busy enough for drivers to calm down a bit, knowing they weren’t going to “make progress”

care to share your route ?

This is NOT sexist- its based on personal experience…

Most of my near misses are with young females staring or typing at their phones.

They don’t even notice you or check the mirror afterwards.

In court they’d claim that they thought I was either a Badger on their screen/caved in car or they just didnt see me and the phone wasnt in use (honest, as your only witness is dead).

Just finished a ride from sheffield to Scunthorpe to see a friend. Stuck to quiet lanes where possible. Only dodgy feeling bit was A road into Gainsborough-the road narrows significantly for the final couple of miles to the Trent crossing and people aren’t prepared to wait if there is oncoming traffic. Had several close passes but other than that and the hellish headwind along the bank of the Trent into Scunthorpe it was a nice ride!

Anyone here ridden on the Orkney or Shetland Isles? We went touring up there last year – couldn’t believe how considerate all the drivers were to both cyclists and pedestrians. The tale we were told (I’ve not verified this) was that a promising young local cyclist was involved in a bad accident and the population decided that since they relied on tourism a lot that they’d change attitudes.

There are still the boy racers – we were at Maes Howe and the guides warned us to take care crossing the road to the monument as it was used as a race track with top speed logged by the police at over 120mph!

Maybe I’m lucky or maybe I’m oblivious but I really havent experienced anything too bad.

The only time I’ve been in an accident with a car it was my fault.

I had a worrying conversation with a work colleague who I generally regard as pretty sound. Someone mentioned coming across a mum with pushchair round a blind bend in a country road with no pavement. He suggested it would be her fault if she got hit by a car for “not taking responsibility for her own safety”. He then extended this viewpoint to cyclists and mobility scooters on busy or tight roads. In his head, the car is king and his entitlement to drive how he wants overrides anyone else’s right to safety. I don’t think he is that unusual though….

@scaredy..

Sure enough, let me sort out and I’ll happily share it.

😀

I, along with many many others know your dread. It wont be fixed until riding a bike becomes a part of the driving test I’m afraid. A sample of what we have to put up with while riding to work or even just for pleasure would or should give the more than ignorant, mean, nasty, careless, awful, twisted morons to think about whilst they are sitting ” their drivers “exam”.

Malvern Rider, I’m still riding and enjoying the old “Maxlite I bought off you a couple of years ago, we are doing the C2C this summer too. Thanks and good luck !!

Your right it is getting worse but I only find it in town meaning Cheltenham which is a small place but has some crazy driving these days.Out of the country roads I don’t have a problem its just when you get near town.I think it depends where you live.I did a fair bit of riding in and around Swindon for a few years and had no hassle and Swindon has hell of a lot of roundabouts.The scary thing these days is you know some people are going to pull out and they do you end up with a six sense.Thats why when you go off-road its so much more relaxing no traffic trying to take you out.Just the same when you ride a motorbike even worse at times.

Most of my near misses are with young females staring or typing at their phones

This. I notice it more when I’m driving and I can see the girls in the rear view mirror paying zero attention to anything other than their phone. I got close to stopping the car and getting out last week as she was following me for ages and nearly rear ended me several times.